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#181 of 431 Old 03-19-2006, 01:17 PM
 
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Thank-you for all the food for thought on sodium. I'm reading a fascinating book on the history of salt right now and it throws this element into such a different light.

What's your feeling about celtic sea salt? It's loaded with trace minerals and I would think that it would have a more supportive effect on the body than regular iodized table salt.

Have you found anything on the negatives of free-floating calcium?
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#182 of 431 Old 03-19-2006, 03:50 PM
 
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Yes, thats what I use, but in quite strict moderation, I think I've had the same 1 lb bag for about a year now....and it still has about a third left in it!
One think I have realised about the nutrition/health subject is that there is so much contradiction out there! I have also read stuff about the benefits of celtic sea salt, and about the miracle of supplements like coral calcium.

One thing about calcium I did learn, is that it will act as a buffer in your body.(A buffer is a substance that neutralises an acid) So when your cells are acidic, calcium rushes in there to buffer the acidity, and in so doing it will drop out of solution, thereby calcifying and becoming hardened. Your blood likes to maintain a homeostasis (constant levels at all times), so when calcium drops out of solution your body will try to get calcium from another source...i.e. your bones. So Osteoporosis is not calcium deficiency but more a calcium misplacement as it is all going into your cells. To now take calcium supplements would be extremely counter-productive, and actually contribute to calcifying your body even more. Conditions like arthritis, atherosclerosis, stiffening up with age, are all signs of this acidity/calcification process and I wouldn't be surprised if calcified cells become malignant as MT suggests. What these people need to do more than anything is to alkalize their bodies.

I think what I have learned in college makes alot of sense to me and following the basics of it has worked for me for the past 4 years.

I am still debating wether to go out and get a bottle of Sodium Ascorbate.....I have read this thread with interest and know that Vit C therapy can be a marvellous thing.

Does anyone have any info on Magnesium Ascorbate? How would that form fare?
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#183 of 431 Old 03-19-2006, 06:42 PM
 
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Hmm that's interesting about the alkalinity. I wonder if the effects of calcium ascorbate would be mitigated in a body that uses a daily dose of apple cider vinegar, lemon juice and other alkalinizing supports. I have yet to come on board fully with the SA because I haven't been able to find anything contraindicating CA. Not that there isn't anything just that I haven't been able to find it. Your description gives me a few more details to work with. I have, however, found lots of supportive research on SA in specific situations.

Yes, contradictions seem to abound in the nutritional realm. But then we are beings full of contradicitions ourselves aren't we? It makes one feel a bit tho. I've heard alot of negatives to do with coral calcium, mainly poor absorption and the presence of lead. Haven't done enough research to know how well-founded those claims are.

What about lowish levels of sodium in the blood despite liberal use of css? As to the mag, this is one of the mineral ascorbates in my C prep, along with calcium and potassium and ascorbyl palmitate, tho not in that order. And not that that gives you any info on it
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#184 of 431 Old 03-27-2006, 03:19 PM
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#185 of 431 Old 03-27-2006, 03:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by carnelian

Ok, this is still bothering me. I've spent a couple weeks trying to find info on this and nothing, nada, zip. Everything I've read, everyone I've talked to--mainly NDs and supplement pharmacists--say that calcium ascorbate is the form of C to take, being the most bio-available and easiest on the gut. No one seems to have heard of it being implicated in disease or excess calcium in the body. Actually I did find one article that stated that older folks shouldn't use it because of the possibility of calcification in the blood due to increased use of other calcium supps. But that was it. Also it's the formula that's all over the shelves at the HFSs.

...
Most all the Dr's who have used C to treat various ailments all used sodium ascorabte. Klenner, Cathcart, Belfield (vet), Kalokerinos are some names that come to mind.
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#186 of 431 Old 05-11-2006, 12:29 PM
 
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#187 of 431 Old 05-11-2006, 10:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Alvie
I believe too much sodium in any form can lead to imbalances, especially if there is an underlying magnesium and potassium deficiency. Magnesium and pottassium are 2 minerals commonly low in most diets. Sodium chloride happens to be the form that is used so prevalently , so yes, I would think that it is implicated with hypertension and other illnesses. Naturally occuring sodium in vegetables usually has a corresponding amount of potassium (2 or 3 times as much potassium than sodium) so would be less likely to cause an imbalance.

Which is why I'm inquiring about sodium ascorbate...I am just concerned about that much sodium causing an imbalance, and would like to research it more.

That book I mentioned before, Max Gerson's cancer therapy talks about this topic. His nutritional therapy involves a strict vegetable and fruit based diet with some whole grains and they do about 13 fresh vegetable juices a day. Thats a whopping amount of potassium. Plus they take extra potassium in supplement form. No salt allowed. Potassium and sodium have an atagonistic relationship in our body, and this rush of potassium into the cells would displace the sodium that is stored there. He noticed that these patients excreted great amounts of sodium over a period of time, and after some time on this diet, their cancer was healed. Which led him to the theory that somehow this excessive sodium lodges itself in human tissue and causes tumor growth (among other things) as excess sodium in our cells changes the pH to acid and causes metabolic disturbances.
(sadly, like all other amazing breakthroughs in natural medicine, his facility was shut down by the American government and The Gerson therapy was banned here I guess the AMA felt a bit threatened- there are still some clinics in Mexico)
This is my concern as well. I have a hard time resisting salt on certain foods (like eggs and beans), so I hate to add more sodium to my diet with the SA, unless, as you're wondering Alvie, it's completely used up by the body in processing the C. I've heard someone else mention (sorry, I can't remember who or on which thread), a natural source of vitamin C, acerola, which already contains the needed bioflavonoids, without all the sodium. I'd like to look into this one some more.
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#188 of 431 Old 05-19-2006, 09:50 AM
 
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bump!
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#189 of 431 Old 05-19-2006, 11:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Alvie
I have one concern, MT...regarding the Sodium Ascorbate powder that was mentioned a while ago. Is that amount of sodium wise to take when doing a large amount of Vit C, like say 4000 - 5000mg? There is about 131 mg sodium/gram of vit C, so that's 655mg of sodium your'e taking. Is all that sodium used up in the metabolism of Vit C? Or is that going to hang around in your body?
I thought I had answered this, but seemingly, its still an issue.

Why would sodium presented with ascorbate be an issue, when it is used to split the ascorbate molecule in order to use it, and excreted in the process?

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What about using Magnesium Ascorbate as an alternative?
of what biological function would that be, in terms of the biochemical way ascorbate is utilised? Assuming the form of magnesium was bioavailable, it would be better than calcium because we are a calcium excess society and chronically magnesium deficient, but it still wouldn't solve the issue that ascorbate requires a sodium ion in order to be split.

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Or would that be akin to taking calcium ascorbate, in that over the long term it would cause a sodium deficiency?
Mag asc, would cause the same sodium depletion as calc asc (since it would still be pulled from the body in order to deal with the ascorbate), with the difference that at least you wouldn't be contributing to even more calcium excess, which would need to be chelated out.

At least the magnesium would perform an alkalinising function, and redress some of the chronic magnesium shortages that are prevalent in society today.

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I'm much more comfortable taking extra magnesium than sodium....as excess magnesium is easier to eliminate from kidneys than sodium is. The body actually has a mechanism in the kidneys to conserve sodium at the expense of Mg and K.
Like I say, if you try it and it works for you fine. I'm assuming then, that you will have sufficient sodium naturally in your diet to allow for processing of ascorbate. If that is not the case, then you might pay the same price that I did. And its' not pretty.

I know many people who have tried calcium ascorbate, and believe that vitamin C is useless, becuase it made their conditions worse, not better. When they change to SA, their health changes.

But, and you might not like this, I don't listen to people in health food shops. While they like to think they are altruistic and knowledgeable, many of them are as much parrots as are CDC-quoting doctors.

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I did some study on electrolyte balance and how it relates to health, and know that problems occur when faced with high sodium/calcium and low pottassium/magnesium.
Absolutely, but the main key for potassium is magnesium, as its magnesium that unlocks the cell walls to potassium.

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Sodium is found in majority in blood and plasma and Pottassium and Magnesium in the cells...and this state is not fixed, the electrolytes are in constant motion in what is called the day/night cycle.
True. But long term, if you take very high doses of ester C, you are going to deepen the depths to which sodium must be taken, and that can have dire consequences.

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During the day, sodium, calcium, and other bits and pieces move slowly into the cells displacing some of the Mg and K. At night, Mg and K should move back into the cells, allowing for the relaxation of muscles during sleeping hours. (Which would explain some of the symptoms of Mag deficiency...insomnia, not feeling rested upon waking, muscle cramps etc)

Which brings us to the problems that occur when Na (sodium) and Ca are in excess, which is common in the diet most people have in the west. Na moves into the cells during the day, but is not removed at night by Mg and K....the cells become acidic and metabolic problems occur....calcium enters to buffer the acidity, and drops out of solution, thereby 'calcifying' the tissues. This is a big problem in many degenerative conditions. (Interestingly, when calcium drops out of solution, the body will pull more from the bones to keep the blood calcium levels stable...)
But the sodium in sodium ascorbate is irrelevant to this equation since it is utilised in the process and isn't treated like salt you shove onto tomatoes by the pinchful.

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My shift has been to a low sodium and high K (potassium) and Mg diet. Along with other detox tecniques, and Mag supplementation (along with other important co factors like B vits especially B3 and 6, Vit C and E, zinc, selenium, and trace minerals, EFAs. (I don't supplement with calcium)
Initially there was a great shift of stored sodium in my body, with symptoms like my palms peeling, hang nails, mouth ulcers, muscle stiffness etc....and 3 or 4 years down the line, I must say, I think there is still more to be removed....although most of those initial symptoms have cleared up....

So - this brings me back to my initial worry of the sodium content of Sodium Ascorbate. I would be very interested in the source of your research on this, maybe you could give me a link.
My sources are from many books. Irwin Stone, Steve Hickey, Professor Clemetson's texts, and Dr Kalokerinos's books.

I have talked to many of the doctors who use vitamin C, and most favour sodium ascorbate. Some use a combination of sodium, magnesium and potassium ascorbate in some of their patients, but again, that is done on a case by case assessment, since some people will alter their diet, and others will not.

however, for the purposes of this discussion, I will type out what is written in Dr Kalokerinos's book "Vitamin C":

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The facts: molecular weights.

Molecular weight of Sodium Ascorbate = 198
Molecular weight of sodium = 23
i.e. % of sodium in sodium ascorbate = 12% (Actually 11.6%)If 1 heaped teaspoonful Sodium Ascorbate - 4 grams then 12% = sodium ion i.e. 480mg.

3 heaped teaspoonsfuls per day = 1.44 grams of sodium per day.

The recommended intake of sodium on a low salt diet is 2.0 grams per day, so 1.44 grams i still well short of the recommended sodium intake i.e. even by orthodix standards, 3 heaped teaspoonfuls of sodium Ascorbate per day does not represent a lot of sodium.
As a matter of interest the molecular weight of NaCl = 57, i.e. 40% of the weight = sodium. I teaspoonful of salt would give more sodium than 3 heaped teaspoonfuls of sodium Ascorbate.

SODIUM OF SOCIUM ASCORBATE IS HANDLED DIFFERENTLY IN THE BODY TO SODIUM OF SODIUM CHLORIDE AND SODIUM OF SODIUM BICARBONATE.

At the kidney interface the ascorbate anion is excreted along with a dosium cation as its major co-ion (pg 89 - 90, Vitamin C - It's molecular Biology and Meidcal Potential, Dr Sherry Lewin Ph.D)

I.e. Ascorbate drags out sodium ion as its major co-ion when its is excreted via the kidneys. Very small amounts only of K+, NH4-, Ca++, Mg++ and some heavy metals are co-excreted.

The sodium of sodium cchloride is excreted along with several coions and does not have the advantage of the chloride anion dragging sodium out through the kidney tubules in the same way as the Ascorbate anion drags out the sodium ion.
In short, Alvie, do what you want. I will stick with what the doctors who use vitamin C most, have found to be the least destructive for body biochemistry as a whole.

If you disagree with them, that is your choice.

Quote:
A great book which deals with this subject is Max Gerson's "A Cancer Therapy- results of 50 cases",He talks about the role of electrolyte balance in disease, a great man he was, and way before his time.

The site http://www.natnut.co.uk
(sorry I don't know if I inserted that link properly) Thats the college I studied at in England and I think they have a forum although I have not been to it in ages. The college has a great philosophy though, and worth looking into.

All the best on your quest for knowledge!
He was a man before his time, and a doctor here, Eva Hill, was cured of cancer through his methods.

That doesn't mean that he knew all there was to know about vitamin C.

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#190 of 431 Old 05-19-2006, 11:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Alvie
I believe too much sodium in any form can lead to imbalances, especially if there is an underlying magnesium and potassium deficiency. Magnesium and pottassium are 2 minerals commonly low in most diets. Sodium chloride happens to be the form that is used so prevalently , so yes, I would think that it is implicated with hypertension and other illnesses.
But sodium ascorbate bears little relationship to sodium chloride. I don't understand why you don't understand that.
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Naturally occuring sodium in vegetables usually has a corresponding amount of potassium (2 or 3 times as much potassium than sodium) so would be less likely to cause an imbalance.

Which is why I'm inquiring about sodium ascorbate...I am just concerned about that much sodium causing an imbalance, and would like to research it more.
hopefully you can research the issue yourself and come to an answer that satisfies yourself.

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That book I mentioned before, Max Gerson's cancer therapy talks about this topic.
It does NOT talk about using sodium ascorbate in the manner in which I am talking about using it.
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His nutritional therapy involves a strict vegetable and fruit based diet with some whole grains and they do about 13 fresh vegetable juices a day. Thats a whopping amount of potassium.
It's actually a whopping amount of sodium from plants as well. Which I agree is not the same as sodium chloride.

Quote:
Plus they take extra potassium in supplement form. No salt allowed. Potassium and sodium have an atagonistic relationship in our body, and this rush of potassium into the cells would displace the sodium that is stored there. He noticed that these patients excreted great amounts of sodium over a period of time, and after some time on this diet, their cancer was healed. Which led him to the theory that somehow this excessive sodium lodges itself in human tissue and causes tumor growth (among other things) as excess sodium in our cells changes the pH to acid and causes metabolic disturbances.
(sadly, like all other amazing breakthroughs in natural medicine, his facility was shut down by the American government and The Gerson therapy was banned here I guess the AMA felt a bit threatened- there are still some clinics in Mexico)
In a culture that uses sodium chloride to excess this may be so. But not all cultures do that.

Quote:
Usually the more I learn, the more questions I have....and I was also interested in MT's research about free floating calcium causing cancer to florish...interesting.
It's not my research. It's in the medical literature. They KNOW that free calcium encourages cancer growth.

They also know that vitamin C discourages it as well.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0111162230.htm

and that may be the reason.

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#191 of 431 Old 05-19-2006, 11:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by momto l&a
Most all the Dr's who have used C to treat various ailments all used sodium ascorabte. Klenner, Cathcart, Belfield (vet), Kalokerinos are some names that come to mind.
And if you talk to them they use sodium ascorbate, becuase they know its the form that works best with the least biochemical disturbance.

However, I'm keeping my eye on liposomal vitamin C, as it works on a different concept, and could be useful. I have reservations right now, but am waiting to see the results of further research.

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#192 of 431 Old 05-19-2006, 11:29 PM
 
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To suggest that these people are idiots for using sodium ascorbate is akin to saying that doctors are right in not using it because they believe it can cause kidney stones.

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#193 of 431 Old 08-01-2006, 01:11 PM
 
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Reviving this thread with a question....(so sorry if I missed the answer, I did read the whole thread!)

What Vit C supplement would you suggest if you are trying to treat gum disease and trying o get pregnant? I know too much C can cause miscarriage.

I currently take Rainbow Light Prenatal One which contains 100 mg of ascorbic acid.

If I am not pregnant this month I will be having my gums cleaned out (sound fun??) right away. I really want to treat it, but want to do so safely.

Thanks for any help.

~Joan, Happy mom to 2 beautiful kiddos, one new puppy and 2 lovely felines
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#194 of 431 Old 08-01-2006, 01:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mom4tot
Reviving this thread with a question....(so sorry if I missed the answer, I did read the whole thread!)

What Vit C supplement would you suggest if you are trying to treat gum disease and trying o get pregnant? I know too much C can cause miscarriage.

I currently take Rainbow Light Prenatal One which contains 100 mg of ascorbic acid.

If I am not pregnant this month I will be having my gums cleaned out (sound fun??) right away. I really want to treat it, but want to do so safely.

Thanks for any help.
Call me oblivious... but I have never heard about C causing miscarriage. I'm getting mixed info from Google... Mom- what's your take on that?
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#195 of 431 Old 08-01-2006, 02:26 PM
 
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LB, I am looking for a link, but of course, can't find it. I will keep looking through my stuff. That is what I have read, that too much C can cause early m/c's.

~Joan, Happy mom to 2 beautiful kiddos, one new puppy and 2 lovely felines
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#196 of 431 Old 08-01-2006, 02:27 PM
 
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I am glad this thread has been reactivated. I made my own sodium ascorbate with ascorbic acid and baking soda. I put it into water and YUCK!! The salty taste from the baking soda was making me gag. Gross. Anyone else having this trouble? I even tried mixing in some juice and it was still gross. Would it taste any better if I bought it already made?

Any advice, tips, suggestions would be greatly appreciated because I really want to take this.
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#197 of 431 Old 08-01-2006, 02:45 PM
 
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As I understand Klinner had over 300 woman he had take SA everyday of their pregnacy, non of them had a mc while taking C.

The Russian Study from what I understand was poorly done.

I am courious to see what MT has to say about she knows about C and mc...

Mt, I havent heard of liposomal vitamin C, what is it? Will I learn more from google?
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#198 of 431 Old 08-01-2006, 02:51 PM
 
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I read that Klenner paper when I got pregnant with my ds (right after an early miscarriage, oddly enough). I decided to take those doses of C. I sometimes took more than the 10 grams in the 3rd trimester, if I caught a cold and felt my body needed extra.

I have to say I had all of the results that were promised. I had an excellent pregnancy, easy UC labor and birth, a very bright, alert and healthy child and no (new) stretch marks. I think C in pregnancy is wonderful! This is the first I've heard of a connection to miscarriages. I have heard of a possible link between C deficiency and pre-eclampsia though.

~*Kristi*~
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#199 of 431 Old 08-01-2006, 06:16 PM
 
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Is Sodium Ascorbate okay to take while nursing? If so, should the amount you take daily be different?

Leslie, mom to John :, 02/25/06
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#200 of 431 Old 08-08-2006, 05:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Spencersmom
I am glad this thread has been reactivated. I made my own sodium ascorbate with ascorbic acid and baking soda. I put it into water and YUCK!! The salty taste from the baking soda was making me gag. Gross. Anyone else having this trouble? I even tried mixing in some juice and it was still gross. Would it taste any better if I bought it already made?

Any advice, tips, suggestions would be greatly appreciated because I really want to take this.
I buy the empty gelcaps and make my own capsules.
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#201 of 431 Old 08-08-2006, 05:31 PM
 
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Thanks for the advice chasmyn. Could you please brief me on the process of making gelcaps? For example, where do I buy them? How many caps do you take at one time to get the correct dose? Any tips on how to fill them to get the most into them? I can surely take it this way! Do you think it affects absorbtion or anything?

TIA.
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#202 of 431 Old 08-08-2006, 06:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Spencersmom
Thanks for the advice chasmyn. Could you please brief me on the process of making gelcaps? For example, where do I buy them? How many caps do you take at one time to get the correct dose? Any tips on how to fill them to get the most into them? I can surely take it this way! Do you think it affects absorbtion or anything?

TIA.
Cap m Quik makes a capsule filler and tamper: http://www.cap-m-quik.com/faq.html

I got mine for about $10 for the kit online (I forget where.) The link also talks about sizing of capsules. I got size 'O', which holds about 1/4 tsp of powder I believe. Since 1/4 tsp = 1000mg of the type of SA I get (Source Naturals), this is perfect for me.

The gelcaps can be gotten at any vitamin shop or HFS or online. The gelatin dissolves faster than the veggie caps, so are optimal, IMO.
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#203 of 431 Old 08-08-2006, 07:19 PM
 
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Excellent info. Thanks a lot!
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#204 of 431 Old 08-12-2006, 10:50 PM
 
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Will someone please tell me about bioflavanoids and vit. c?

I thought sodium ascorbate was the best thing to take (it has helped both myself and dds) but aren't you supposed to give vit. C w/bioflavanoids for proper absorption?

I'm confused. I switched dd2 to a brand w/bioflavanoids and I don't think it's having the same effect as the SA did.
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#205 of 431 Old 08-13-2006, 03:21 AM
 
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That is the theory of it, though I have found that SA "works" in acute situations without.

But I never take it without normally... I buy SA powder, citrus bioflavinoids powder, and mix with tangelo or orange juice.... and hot water. But you could use any of the bioflavinoids.

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#206 of 431 Old 08-13-2006, 09:07 AM
 
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I have some bioflavonoid powder & its tastes baaaddddd. Are there any that taste good?

Mom to DMI & Silly Apple
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#207 of 431 Old 08-13-2006, 09:12 AM
 
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Tastes fine with tangelo juice...

“I want to sell drugs to everyone. I want to sell drugs to healthy people. I want drugs to sell like chewing gum.” former Merck CEO, Henry Gadsden

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#208 of 431 Old 08-13-2006, 06:50 PM
 
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I found bioflavonoids in a caplet (NOW brand, I think I bought them at iherb.com).

MT, I read an old post of yours in another thread where you mentioned taking 1 part bioflavonoids to 5 parts SA. Is that still the ratio you recommend?

Also, if I'm taking high doses of SA to help with gut healing, is dividing it into 4 doses a day enough? Right now I'm taking 16 grams/day, and I think I will have to go close to 25 grams, or possible more, before I get to bowel tolerance.
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#209 of 431 Old 08-13-2006, 07:08 PM
 
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hey, could we get this thread sticky? I think it is such a great resource!
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#210 of 431 Old 08-15-2006, 04:37 PM
 
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Quote:
The first sign of vitamin C deficiency is red gums where the collagen bonds have broken down, and the cells are going spongy, and they bleed when brushed. Vitamin C deficiency is THE primary cause for most gum disorders such as "gingivitis".

But if you have gum redness, then you can also be sure that the rest of your body inside is going the same way.
now I know what my body is missing!! thanks MT is AA alright to take? we have nothing else except babys SA tabs from hylands, and I wanna keep them for him.
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