Can we talk about fetal bovine serum in vaccines? - Mothering Forums
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#1 of 39 Old 11-21-2007, 01:50 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I found this

http://www.retroconference.org/2002/Abstract/13891.htm

and this...

http://gateway.nlm.nih.gov/MeetingAb...102264259.html

and this...

http://www.cadama.co.uk/pages/foetal_bovine_serum.html


Soooo...am I understanding this correctly.....some of the vaccines tested were positive for BPyV DNA ?

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#2 of 39 Old 11-21-2007, 02:55 AM
 
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They've found BVDV in the MMR, too.
It's questionable if it's still "alive" though. It probably varies from lot to lot, I think.
hey've actually found a bunch of viruses in FBS. Some of them probably won't grow in the tissues they use to grow the MMR viruses, though.

You can look through here for a start:

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl...on&btnG=Search
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#3 of 39 Old 11-21-2007, 03:01 AM - Thread Starter
 
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But isnt the dna still there? Wouldnt that make it into the vax?

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#4 of 39 Old 11-21-2007, 03:13 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mykdsmomy View Post
But isnt the dna still there? Wouldnt that make it into the vax?
Yeah...but if it doesn't replicate, it shouldn't matter.
Unless there was a lot of it.

Here's another search to look through.
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl...es&btnG=Search
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#5 of 39 Old 11-21-2007, 03:15 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Awesome...Thanks MK! Off to do some major reading....

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#6 of 39 Old 11-21-2007, 03:16 AM
 
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#7 of 39 Old 11-21-2007, 03:34 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by mamakay View Post
: At the great risk of oversimplifying.....babies are getting sick...it's evident that the vaccine is to blame but the WHO continues to feel that the continuous cell lines are safe? What am I missing here?

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#8 of 39 Old 11-21-2007, 12:04 PM
 
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In order for any DNA molecule to replicate it must be in a nucleus. There are many components that are needed for DNA to replicate. Additionally, DNA is polar and positively charged. It is VERY difficult for DNA to get into a cell. In a lab DNA must either be injected directly into a cell or coated with specifc components to obtain the proper charge to penetrate the cell membrane. Then it must get into the nucleus. Random DNA floating is blood can not replicate.
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#9 of 39 Old 11-21-2007, 12:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by WillyMom View Post
In order for any DNA molecule to replicate it must be in a nucleus. There are many components that are needed for DNA to replicate. Additionally, DNA is polar and positively charged. It is VERY difficult for DNA to get into a cell. In a lab DNA must either be injected directly into a cell or coated with specifc components to obtain the proper charge to penetrate the cell membrane. Then it must get into the nucleus. Random DNA floating is blood can not replicate.
BVDV does a fine job of infecting human cells as long as it's intact.
BVDV is an RNA virus, too, I think.

How do you think the old polio vaccines infected people with SV40?
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#10 of 39 Old 11-21-2007, 12:41 PM
 
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MK,
I thought you were talking about cow DNA in the serum, not the intact virus. Inact viruses of course have very sophisticated ways docking on a cell membrane and injecting their DNA into a cell and the DNA making its way to the nucleus.
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#11 of 39 Old 11-21-2007, 12:55 PM
 
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Oooh...it's cool.
Yeah...I'm just talking about viral contaminants in FBS that might amplify in the cultures.
Vero cells are HIGHLY permissive to BVDV, for example. And rotateq is grown in vero cells, and supplemented with FBS, which is often contaminated with BVDV.
They do irradiate the FBS, but that's not perfect. It comes frozen in cubes and the stuff in the middle doesn't get touched, really.
And if they just irradate it more they'll end up ruining the FBS.
So...
Merck says it buys FBS from sources with herds that are free of viruses like BVDV.
But then you're down to just trusting farmers to know what their cattle have and telling the truth.
There seem to be a lot of holes in the system, I guess is what I'm saying.
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#12 of 39 Old 11-21-2007, 02:48 PM - Thread Starter
 
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But then you're down to just trusting farmers to know what their cattle have and telling the truth.
There seem to be a lot of holes in the system, I guess is what I'm saying.
Do all these cows come from actual farmers or are some factory farm cows? Also, couldnt farmers use antibiotics on their cows ....that could potentially create more harmful viruses that could wind up in the serum?

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#13 of 39 Old 11-21-2007, 03:03 PM
 
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Do all these cows come from actual farmers or are some factory farm cows? Also, couldnt farmers use antibiotics on their cows ....that could potentially create more harmful viruses that could wind up in the serum?
The FBS comes from [the fetuses of] regular slaughter-house "food" cows.
http://www.vet.uu.nl/nca/userfiles/o...tock_sera_.pdf

Antibiotics wouldn't matter since we're talking about viruses.
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#14 of 39 Old 11-21-2007, 03:09 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Antibiotics wouldn't matter since we're talking about viruses.
you're right.

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#15 of 39 Old 11-21-2007, 03:32 PM
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BVDV does a fine job of infecting human cells as long as it's intact.
BVDV is an RNA virus, too, I think.
BVDV is an RNA virus and really doesn't do a very good job of infecting humans due to the mismatch of cell surface receptor proteins. There are also numerous biotypes with most being non-cytopathic.

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How do you think the old polio vaccines infected people with SV40?
This was/is a problem due to the virus being zoonotic. If it weren't, we probably would never have even heard of SV40 in relation to vaccine contamination.

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#16 of 39 Old 11-21-2007, 06:09 PM
 
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BVDV is an RNA virus and really doesn't do a very good job of infecting humans due to the mismatch of cell surface receptor proteins. There are also numerous biotypes with most being non-cytopathic.

This was/is a problem due to the virus being zoonotic. If it weren't, we probably would never have even heard of SV40 in relation to vaccine contamination.

SM
Just for my own clarity are you saying that BVDV isn't zoonotic and therefore cannot make us sick?
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#17 of 39 Old 11-21-2007, 06:48 PM
 
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BVDV is an RNA virus and really doesn't do a very good job of infecting humans due to the mismatch of cell surface receptor proteins. There are also numerous biotypes with most being non-cytopathic.
It can't be too bad at it or there wouldn't be all those vets and children and farmers who have been documented as infected/seroconverted, you know?
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#18 of 39 Old 11-21-2007, 06:53 PM
 
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It can't be too bad at it or there wouldn't be all those vets and children and farmers who have been documented as infected/seroconverted, you know?
So, people have been exposed to this stuff and "caught" it? Do they get sick? Are the symptoms similar to any of the better known vaccine reactions?
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#19 of 39 Old 11-21-2007, 06:53 PM
 
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http://fn.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/78/3/F230?ck=nck

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Pestivirus infections were thought to occur exclusively in animals until Giangaspero and coworkers recently reported the presence of specific anti-BVDV antibodies in up to 87% of animal handlers and veterinarians.18 Since then, lower prevalences of 15-16% have been reported in adults.19 20 Among children under 2 years, pestivirus antigens were present in 24% of specimens from diarrhoea episodes that could not be explained by more common enteric pathogens
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#20 of 39 Old 11-21-2007, 07:30 PM
 
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So weird diarrhoea episodes could be connected to vax ingredients. Whoopee!
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So weird diarrhoea episodes could be connected to vax ingredients. Whoopee!
Isn't Rotateq made with Bovine serum?
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#22 of 39 Old 11-21-2007, 07:54 PM
 
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Isn't Rotateq made with Bovine serum?
Yep. And it's cultured in vero cells, which are really good for "growing" BVDV.

I always wonder if it's a pestivirus whenever I hear about a baby having a horrible gut reaction to rotateq, especially when it's the last dose and the kid should be immune by that point.
Oh...and in the clinical trials for rotateq, the placebo was the vero cells+FBS medium, just minus the rotavirus.
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.Oh...and in the clinical trials for rotateq, the placebo was the vero cells+FBS medium, just minus the rotavirus.
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Yep. And it's cultured in vero cells, which are really good for "growing" BVDV.

I always wonder if it's a pestivirus whenever I hear about a baby having a horrible gut reaction to rotateq, especially when it's the last dose and the kid should be immune by that point.
Oh...and in the clinical trials for rotateq, the placebo was the vero cells+FBS medium, just minus the rotavirus.
There used to be an award for the ad agency that came up with the best ad campaign directed at children.

There should be an award for the most ingenious placebo in vaccine trials.

Bleeeeeccccchhhhh!::Puke
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#25 of 39 Old 11-22-2007, 12:58 AM
 
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Yep. And it's cultured in vero cells, which are really good for "growing" BVDV.

I always wonder if it's a pestivirus whenever I hear about a baby having a horrible gut reaction to rotateq, especially when it's the last dose and the kid should be immune by that point.
Oh...and in the clinical trials for rotateq, the placebo was the vero cells+FBS medium, just minus the rotavirus.
How can that be considered a placebo when it could have something in it that can make a person sick? : Blech
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#26 of 39 Old 11-22-2007, 01:09 AM
 
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How can that be considered a placebo when it could have something in it that can make a person sick? : Blech
Because they don't admit that it can make people sick. So it is okay to put it into a placebo because it doesn't do anything. Neutral as salt water.
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#27 of 39 Old 11-22-2007, 01:11 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Because they don't admit that it can make people sick. So it is okay to put it into a placebo because it doesn't do anything. Neutral as salt water.
Why dont they just use salt water then? I dont get it. I dont understand why they need to use toxins in a placebo :

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Why dont they just use salt water then? I dont get it. I dont understand why they need to use toxins in a placebo :
Now, that is a different question. I suppose the reason they used a placebo that could cause the same problems as the vaccine is to muddy the waters. If both groups of kids are getting the runs, then it isn't a vaccine side-effect. And since placebos don't cause side-effects, it must be that babies get the runs all the time anyway.

Trouble is, this stuff has the side-effect of causing paranoia in people who look into it and then everyone will laugh at us because we are nutty conspiracy theorists. Sort of a catch 22.
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Just for my own clarity are you saying that BVDV isn't zoonotic and therefore cannot make us sick?
No and yes. Mostly no due to the incompatibility between human cell surface receptors and viral epitopes. Yes in the sense that in certain immunocompromised individuals that have sufficient exposure do exhibit symptomology of BVDV infection although virus has yet to be recovered as far as I know.

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Yep. And it's cultured in vero cells, which are really good for "growing" BVDV.

I always wonder if it's a pestivirus whenever I hear about a baby having a horrible gut reaction to rotateq, especially when it's the last dose and the kid should be immune by that point.
Oh...and in the clinical trials for rotateq, the placebo was the vero cells+FBS medium, just minus the rotavirus.
Do you really believe that? BVDV is very heat-labile and while I wouldn't fall off my chair if we were to find out that some BVD virions slipped into some vaccine lots, it is so highly unlikely as to not register any concern for me.

What would you propose the placebo be?

SM
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No and yes. Mostly no due to the incompatibility between human cell surface receptors and viral epitopes. Yes in the sense that in certain immunocompromised individuals that have sufficient exposure do exhibit symptomology of BVDV infection although virus has yet to be recovered as far as I know.
What about the 15-85% of vets and animal handlers who are seroconverted?
What about the kids with it (well, some pestivirus...) in their stools?

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Do you really believe that?
Absolutely. I think it's quite possible.

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What would you propose the placebo be?

SM
Suger water? Rotateq appears to beflavored with something babies like, so something that babies equally liked would work, it seems.
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