Pertussis. - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
#1 of 13 Old 12-05-2005, 03:30 AM - Thread Starter
 
Momtezuma Tuatara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 8,091
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I've received several PMs asking what whooping cough is doing in this country. I've said I'd answer here.

Just because we hang off the end of the earth doesn't mean that disease doesn't happen.

Whooping cough is rampant in this country and the reason they are saying nothing publicly, is because they know the vaccine is a dud. The as much as admit so in this report:

http://www.surv.esr.cri.nz/PDF_surve...04December.pdf

It's a large file, 1.6 mb... but download it.

Look at the second page on the top right side of the page and you will see a new term.

This vaccine brought in in 2001, was touted with the best ever efficacy and here they are saying the "The effective vaccination rate may in some cases be as low as 33%"

So I think we are going to see new terminology at some point, where vaccine which are lousy have "effective" vaccination rates :

There are four other reports that those with a mind for these things might wish to have a look at:

http://www.surv.esr.cri.nz/PDF_surve...ualSurvRpt.pdf


http://www.surv.esr.cri.nz/PDF_surve...ualSurvRpt.pdf


http://www.surv.esr.cri.nz/PDF_surve...ualSurvRpt.pdf


http://www.surv.esr.cri.nz/PDF_surve...ualSurvRpt.pdf


All of them are large. All very revealing.

There are other reports and tables worth reading on this site, but its a bit of a mission to find them.

This should answer questions asked so far.

“I want to sell drugs to everyone. I want to sell drugs to healthy people. I want drugs to sell like chewing gum.” former Merck CEO, Henry Gadsden

Momtezuma Tuatara is offline  
#2 of 13 Old 12-05-2005, 03:48 AM - Thread Starter
 
Momtezuma Tuatara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 8,091
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
If you just want comparison tables, the most recent up to the end of 2004 is this one:

http://www.surv.esr.cri.nz/PDF_surve...SurvTables.pdf

“I want to sell drugs to everyone. I want to sell drugs to healthy people. I want drugs to sell like chewing gum.” former Merck CEO, Henry Gadsden

Momtezuma Tuatara is offline  
#3 of 13 Old 12-05-2005, 08:12 AM
 
Artisan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 5,427
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
This is great info -- thank you.

Something that people don't understand and that doctors are now just sniffing around is that even if a vaccine produces some sort of immunity in someone, that "protection" wears off. At some point in one's life, you are no longer "immune." And pertussis is so contagious that you have thousands of adults with it who are not diagnosed because it's not the thing to do. And because the vax doesn't work well, it's very likely that even vaxed children catch pertussis from others.

ETA: I would imagine that as the CDC catches on to this, they are going to start recommending pertussis booster shots along with flu shots. It is going to become the next "epidemic" even though it was there all along.
Artisan is offline  
#4 of 13 Old 12-05-2005, 09:44 AM
 
angela&avery's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: new england
Posts: 2,455
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I like seeing my ideas confirmed and that is that despite these vaccinations, all the diseases come and go as they please in frequency.
angela&avery is offline  
#5 of 13 Old 12-05-2005, 06:32 PM
 
Drummer's Wife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Land of Enchantment
Posts: 11,793
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks for the info I'm gonna read it all when I get some peace and quiet

ribboncesarean.gif cesareans happen.
Drummer's Wife is offline  
#6 of 13 Old 12-05-2005, 08:24 PM
 
mamakay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: in la la land, or so they say...
Posts: 8,986
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Are there any theories on why it happens in 4/5 year cycles?
mamakay is offline  
#7 of 13 Old 12-05-2005, 09:24 PM
 
Sherra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 1,467
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Good stuff.

It is so disturbing to me that they play down the percentage of children that react very badly to the pertussis vaccination. In my case, they didn't even want to report it, I had to.
Sherra is offline  
#8 of 13 Old 12-05-2005, 09:40 PM
 
Gitti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Ready to move on...
Posts: 14,790
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I haven't had time to read it yet, but I do want to add that children who have had whooping cough have way less chance of getting asthma.

So, maybe somehow it strengthens the lungs?
Gitti is offline  
#9 of 13 Old 12-05-2005, 09:54 PM
 
angela&avery's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: new england
Posts: 2,455
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Once again, thanks for the info.
angela&avery is offline  
#10 of 13 Old 12-05-2005, 09:58 PM - Thread Starter
 
Momtezuma Tuatara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 8,091
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I've just compiled the whooping cough death data for a graph, and the hospitalisation data. The deaths graph goes from 1872 to now, and up until about the 50's whooping cough went in two year cycles apart from the depression years, and second world war, where it was constant. Then I think with the introduction of vaccines that may have disturbed the circulation sufficiently, and given enough temporary immunity, to spread it out to four years. But I notice now, its going back to more of a two-yearly/constant pattern.

The other argument could be that doctors just didn't report it when they assumed the vaccine worked, but I don't think that holds water, because there is definitely an increase. I think the whole vaccines thing has so messed up the "natural" scheme of things that their only "solution" will be 5 yearly boosters for everyone.

This pdf is interesting:

http://www.contemporarypediatrics.co...43/article.pdf

“I want to sell drugs to everyone. I want to sell drugs to healthy people. I want drugs to sell like chewing gum.” former Merck CEO, Henry Gadsden

Momtezuma Tuatara is offline  
#11 of 13 Old 12-05-2005, 10:14 PM
 
Jen123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,962
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
MT..thanks for telling us those are all PDF files...I appreciate it. I hate opening a link only to find it goes to my slow moving pdf files. It's nice to have a warning.
Jen123 is offline  
#12 of 13 Old 12-06-2005, 01:10 AM
 
LilithX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 139
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks for all that info. I will read it over ASAP (saved it to a file so I don't forget or lose it

One thing which has struck me re' pertussis is that the epidemiology of late seems to be following a rather familiar trend for some other "VPD"s, namely, that the vaccine "wears off" and/or confers weaker/generaly inferior immunity as opposed to the natural immunity, and over time, we see the disease shift into older populations and then into younger ones, as a result of both more inadvertant exposures and loss of maternal immunities (in some cases)

Now, the common rebuttal to this theory is that the disease (pertussis) does NOT confer immunity of any significantly longer or greater duration than the vaccine does; that BOTH immunities wane in a similar fashion.

But that is just a theory, as far as I have been able to tell.

Pertussis immunity is rather unusual/not well understood, being not tied to specific antibodies in the same way as many other diseases.

But the general consensus prior to mass vaccination seems to be that immunity from a case of pertussis was "lifelong" or so nearly so as to make the point virtually moot.

Post mass vaccination, we see loss of immunity as soon as 3-5 yrs after the last vaccination, and no immunity in teens and young adults is considered common, the NORM, not the exception.

There is much evidence, imo, in support of the assumption that natural immunity is superior to vaccine immunity in the case of the pertussis. One Italian study found that a very high percentage of older teens tested who'd HAD pertussis as children/unvaxed displayed indications of strong immunity. Compare that to the current assumption that MOST vaxed older teens are not immune.

Concurrently, we are seeing huge increases in the infection on infants, those most likely to suffer severe complications including death, and studies have shown that the most common source of exposure for this age group is older children and adults with waning vaccine immunity.

OTOH, at least one study found that many fully vaccinated PRESCHOOL aged children were NOT immune to infection with pertussis and were capable of spreading the infection to others, even though they themselves tended to exhibit subclincal infections. (another similarity to some other vaccines, which have proven to be relatively effective at preventing clinical illness but NOT so effective at preventing infection and transmission)

So I think that not only is the vaccine far less effective than widely claimed/considered, what we are seeing is the long-term result of replacing natural immunity with vaccine immunity, with a much larger percentage of adults and older children being non-immune and capable of transmitting the infection (which is often subclinical or milder in these age groups as compared to in the younger age groups in which it "prefers" to occur, and who more often exhibit clinical symptoms).

I also think there may be some maternal immunity which has been lost with the loss of widespread natural immunity, which also leaves infants more vulnerable to infection. JMO.

All in all, I find it interesting and amusing that the "experts" tend to respond with comments like "we just don't know what is going on" in the face of record high vaccination levels and concurrent record levels of incidence. I'm sure they would "know" what was going on if vax levels were even slightly lower than usual, lol!

Fact is, imo, they know darn good and well what is happening, but simply canmnot bring themselves to admit it. The best they can do is develop a booster (which will, I'm sure, solve the whole problem forever.

Lilith
Mom to John, 13 (who suffered 9 hrs of high-pitched screaming and convulsions and a SEVERE local reaction, followed by 12 hrs of unrousable "sleep" following his 2 mth DPT)
And Sage, 6
LilithX is offline  
#13 of 13 Old 12-06-2005, 01:26 AM
 
insider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 657
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Natural immunity to Pertussis is undoubtedly superior to anything produced by the vaccine. The aluminum in the killed vaccine stimulates an antibody response but not a cell-mediated response. Natural infection stimulates the entire immune system.
ladylittlebird likes this.
insider is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off