Can We Discuss DTaP and Transmission? - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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#31 of 42 Old 11-16-2008, 09:16 PM
 
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And then, back to that ACT toxin that's not in the vaccine...
This is bad:

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi...10.1086/381204


Quote:
Of particular interest is the lack of a significant ACT antibody response in children for whom the DTP or DTaP vaccines failed. This induced tolerance is intriguing and may be due to the phenomenon called “original antigenic sin” [22]. In this phenomenon, a child responds at initial exposure to all presented epitopes of the infecting agent or vaccine. With repeated exposure when older, the child responds preferentially to those epitopes shared with the original infecting agent or vaccine and can be expected to have responses to new epitopes of the infecting agent that are less marked than normal. Because both vaccines contained multiple antigens (i.e., PT, FHA, PRN, and fimbriae), the patients who had been vaccinated responded to the antigens that they had been primed with and did not respond to the new antigen (i.e., ACT) associated with infection.
That means that, in theory, DTaP vaccinated kids might be MORE CONTAGIOUS when they catch pertussis compared to unvaxed kids after they catch pertussis.
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#32 of 42 Old 11-17-2008, 05:34 PM
 
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MK, does this
Quote:
one postimmunization sample with a strong response to filamentous hemagglutinin caused an inhibition of phagocytosis that was statistically significant compared to that observed for the no-serum control
mean that the vaccine caused a statistically significant immune supressant response in one study group?
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#33 of 42 Old 11-17-2008, 08:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by wallacesmum View Post
MK, does this


mean that the vaccine caused a statistically significant immune supressant response in one study group?
In one sample (one person's blood), yes.
His blood was better at "killing" pertussis before being vaccinated.
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#34 of 42 Old 11-18-2008, 04:18 AM
 
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I have a pretty thorough understanding of this issue, so if anyone has any questions, feel free to ask.

It is an extremely complex issue, but I don't mind explaining what's known.
We can make a "be all end all" thread for the archives, if any of you want.

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#35 of 42 Old 11-18-2008, 10:50 AM
 
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All right, so then, what do you think it might mean that the vaccination can actually have a negative effect on resistance?
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#36 of 42 Old 11-18-2008, 09:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wallacesmum View Post
All right, so then, what do you think it might mean that the vaccination can actually have a negative effect on resistance?
It means the "Do it for your baby!" ads are a scandalous load of hooey, for one...
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#37 of 42 Old 11-19-2008, 07:35 AM
 
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So what do we know about what the 2mo, 4mo, 6mo, etc series does for/to infants? Is the anti-toxin part that's supposed to make the really heavy coughing actually helping to some extent?

And are there any benefits to teen/adult vaccination? It seems like it's a rare adult who gets the really heavy, debilitating cough. Not impossible, but most cases seem like normal coughs (no one thinks whooping cough, I mean).

What's the most interesting thing you've learned? I have to ask this--I don't know enough to ask the question that would naturally lead here, so I'll just jump to the end-point.
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#38 of 42 Old 11-19-2008, 01:38 PM
 
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mamakay- do you believe that the antigens other than the PT are completely ineffective?

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#39 of 42 Old 11-19-2008, 02:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by 2boyzmama View Post
PLUS, immunity is wearing off, most adults no long have immunity, and adults tend not to have the classic "whoop", so they are ill with pertussis without knowing it and spreading it around.

It's a very frustrating vaccine...
That is an interesting point. I wonder how much WC starts with adults....

Also, in being a bacteria...lifetime immunity would not necessarily come with natural infection, correct?

Alicia, wife to an loving and faithful DH, and mama to three fantastic though nutty children (cs, then an HBAC, then a VBAC!!).
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#40 of 42 Old 11-19-2008, 04:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TanyaLopez View Post
So what do we know about what the 2mo, 4mo, 6mo, etc series does for/to infants? Is the anti-toxin part that's supposed to make the really heavy coughing actually helping to some extent?

And are there any benefits to teen/adult vaccination? It seems like it's a rare adult who gets the really heavy, debilitating cough. Not impossible, but most cases seem like normal coughs (no one thinks whooping cough, I mean).

What's the most interesting thing you've learned? I have to ask this--I don't know enough to ask the question that would naturally lead here, so I'll just jump to the end-point.
Yeah, I think it's the "pertussis toxin" part that helps infants/kids/adults not have such a bad cough.
For adults and teens...older people can get a bad case, too. Not "deadly" and it won't put you in the hospital, but it can be miserable. Really miserable. So I think it would be reasonable to get the shot to spare yourself that misery.

The most interesting thing I've learned is that the people in charge of this stuff are sort of faking it when they act like they really know what's going on.
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#41 of 42 Old 11-19-2008, 04:28 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MissRubyandKen View Post
mamakay- do you believe that the antigens other than the PT are completely ineffective?
Maybe. Or they might add in another 10% or so effectiveness. But out of those 4 other antigens they put in there, nobody knows which one(s), if any, are having an effect. The research is all over the place, and in one study, they'll find an effect with one antigen, but in the next study, they'll find a negative effect there.
So it's hard to say.
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#42 of 42 Old 11-20-2008, 03:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mamakay View Post
Yeah, I think it's the "pertussis toxin" part that helps infants/kids/adults not have such a bad cough.
For adults and teens...older people can get a bad case, too. Not "deadly" and it won't put you in the hospital, but it can be miserable. Really miserable. So I think it would be reasonable to get the shot to spare yourself that misery.
Is there efficacy data for adults that makes a case for a reduction in the cough? I haven't ever looked at it, because I figure an adult can decide whether or not to self-treat; it's just tricky convincing a baby that he should eat piles of sodium ascorbate!
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