Anyone choose to do the Hib? Appt tom. and panicking - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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#31 of 66 Old 08-17-2006, 04:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Lynnseedoil
And I try to protect my daughter from those things too.

So what is it you're trying to say with this statement? You're going to vax your child for every illness known to man if pharma develops a vaccine for it?

Serious complications and/or death from Hib was never prevalent and I can rattle off a million other things that can put your child in danger that are more prevalent.

Bottom line: If no vaccine existed, you wouldn't know Hib from hip.
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#32 of 66 Old 08-17-2006, 04:40 PM
 
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See, Plummeting - that's why you are sure as shootin NOT invisible!! Way well said, great explanations... I'm such a rookie!

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#33 of 66 Old 08-17-2006, 04:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by gnu
The first Hib vaccine was licensed in 1985.
I'd also like to point out that the first vaccine was not indicated for infants and not widely used . . . at all.

When the vaccine for infants was introduced and routinely recommended to be given along with the other vaxes at 2, 4 and 6 months in the early 90's - THIS was when Hib vaccine began to be used widespread and it became notifable.

They never made the disease notifiable prior to this time because it didn't warrant notification b/c the vaccine's use was not significant. No reason to report, if the vaccine isn't being used.
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#34 of 66 Old 08-17-2006, 04:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Plummeting~ thanks for clearing that up for me. I guess that's what happens when dumb people try to read papers written by smart people
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#35 of 66 Old 08-17-2006, 04:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ~Ryleigh's Mommy~
Plummeting~ thanks for clearing that up for me. I guess that's what happens when dumb people try to read papers written by smart people
Don't say that! You are clearly a very intelligent person, because you thought enough to research this issue! I've been *exactly* where you are - I promise! Two years ago I was a nervous wreck about pertussis - it was lurking in the lungs of every person I passed, just waiting to kill my baby.
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#36 of 66 Old 08-17-2006, 04:52 PM - Thread Starter
 
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OK wait, let me make sure I really do understand, lol.
Ok so if you vaccinate against Hib, it won't cause an increase in other HI bacteria, but it will cause an increase in pneumonoccocal.
But if you vaccinate with PCV, it does increase the chance of other strains of PC taking over.
I knew that the prevnar only covered 7 of the 90something strains, leaving room for the others to move in.
But as I understand it, if you vaccinate against Hib, it DOESN'T leave room for other HI to move in.
It was the part about vaxing against Hib leaving room for PC that I was incorrect.
Correct?
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#37 of 66 Old 08-17-2006, 04:53 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Ryleigh's Mommy~
This is from the National Vaccine Information Center:

In 1984, there were 20,000 cases of Hib disease estimated to have occurred in the U.S. that year, the highest number that are thought to have occurred in one year. In 1994, there were 1,174 cases of Hib disease reported, with 329 cases occurring in children under five years of age and 463 occurring in adults over 60 years old.
Bolding mine. Estimated? How? What proof do they have? Um, pulling numbers out of the air.

Okay- in 1994- 329 cases in children under 5. Hmm. 329. Not thousands. And how many deaths? Any?

-Angela
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#38 of 66 Old 08-17-2006, 04:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ~Ryleigh's Mommy~
OK wait, let me make sure I really do understand, lol.
Ok so if you vaccinate against Hib, it won't cause an increase in other HI bacteria, but it will cause an increase in pneumonoccocal.
But if you vaccinate with PCV, it does increase the chance of other strains of PC taking over.
I knew that the prevnar only covered 7 of the 90something strains, leaving room for the others to move in.
But as I understand it, if you vaccinate against Hib, it DOESN'T leave room for other HI to move in.
It was the part about vaxing against Hib leaving room for PC that I was incorrect.
Correct?
So far, that's all I've seen any real evidence for. I've seen at least one paper discussing the possibility that there has been a slight increase in invasive HI type A disease, but nothing big. From my non-scientists understanding of it, Haemophilus Influenzae and S. Pneumoniae are epidemiologically different and respond very differently to vaccines when it comes to serotype replacement.
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#39 of 66 Old 08-17-2006, 05:13 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gnu
These things, posted months ago by Long Island, helped put things into perspective for me:

The first Hib vaccine was licensed in 1985. Hib was put on the childhood recommended schedule of immunizations in 1993. Prior to 1991, Hib was not a notifiable disease.

Here are the number of reported Hib cases:

1991 (2,764)
1992 (1,412)
1993 (1,419) Hib placed on childhood schedule, resulting in universal immunization and state-by-state mandates for entry to daycare/school

1994 (1,174)
1995 (1,180)
1996 (1,170)
1997 (1,162)
1998 (1,194)
1999 (1,309)
2000 (1,398)
2001 (1,597)
2002 (1,743)
2003 (2,013)

Speaks volumes doesn't it?


Historical reporting data from the CDC:
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00035381.htm
----------


You asked what we learn from this. I just learned something new today actually. I learned that the number of reported adverse events associated with Hib vaccine outnumber the actual reported cases of the illness (even before it was universally recommended):

VAERS Data (go to page 16):
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/PDF/ss/ss5201.pdf

-------------

And these posts:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...88&postcount=8

(!) http://www.mothering.com/discussions...0&postcount=27

-------------

And finally, this site (one of the few "vaccination sites" I like, as it goes straight to the articles and abstracts for its conclusions)

http://www.vaccinationnews.com/Daily...astfeeding.htm


I truly hope this helps! Good luck.
gnu, thanks for all that info- I think my decision is now clear, we won't be doing hib!!
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#40 of 66 Old 08-17-2006, 05:15 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alegna
Bolding mine. Estimated? How? What proof do they have? Um, pulling numbers out of the air.-Angela
I don't know how they estimated it or what proof they have. That info came from an anti vax site- not the CDC. So I really don't think they would make up numbers to try to scare me about a disease.


Quote:
Originally Posted by alegna

Okay- in 1994- 329 cases in children under 5. Hmm. 329. Not thousands. And how many deaths? Any?

-Angela
That's the point I was trying to make. In 1994 after they mass vaxed for it, there were hardly any cases. While in 1984, before they vaxed for it, there was 20,000something. I don't know how many deaths, but the figure they gave was that it is fatal in 5-10% of the cases.
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#41 of 66 Old 08-17-2006, 05:28 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I just wanted to point out that I didn't come on here trying to talking anybody into getting the Hib vax or anything like that.
I am a fairly new momma who is even newer to the "anti-vax scene" who is having some new mom anxieties. I am generally very anti-vax now, but for some reason the meningitis just really scares me. Like I said in my OP, I had previously made up my mind not to vax at all (and I really want to stick with that decision) but I have been reading some things that makes me worried that I might get scared into getting her that one shot. Especially since up until some nice ladies shared their links, I had not really read anything bad about the Hib shot.
I guess I just wanted some reassurance and maybe some ammunition to help me be more confident when I face the pedi tomorrow.
I have read mixed things on how serious or how easily caught Hib meningitis really is, so I don't really know what to believe about that aspect. So what I would really like is info on the ill effects of the vaccine so that I don't end up getting it "just to make myself feel better".
I have read in a few places here about sometimes feeling like there is that drum beating "Just Do It". And I guess I am really hearing that drum with this particular vax.
So like I said, what I really need is just some confidence, not to be condescended to or argued with.
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#42 of 66 Old 08-17-2006, 05:46 PM
 
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I can only add that once you put the vax in, you can't take it out. But you can always delay giving the shot. Don't get this vax tomorrow. Wait until you are sure you really want your dd to have it. If I recall correctly from when my dd was little, the ped said we could skip Hib because I was bfing and she wasn't in daycare. My dd is now three and hasn't been to the doc since 9 months and my 16 month old ds has only been there once at two weeks old. No menigitis in our house. Be strong and keep doing your research.
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#43 of 66 Old 08-17-2006, 05:53 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Ryleigh's Mommy~
That's the point I was trying to make. In 1994 after they mass vaxed for it, there were hardly any cases. While in 1984, before they vaxed for it, there was 20,000something. I don't know how many deaths, but the figure they gave was that it is fatal in 5-10% of the cases.[/FONT][/COLOR]
The NVIC got their information from the CDC website and/or promotional pages/materials.

Let's talk a little bit about how the CDC "estimates" disease incidence.
For example, prior to the introduction of the varicella vaccine, the CDC "estimated" that 4 MILLION children got the chicken pox annually.

How did they get that number? Well, they used the birth cohort. Four million children are born annually . . . so four million children will get chicken pox.

How did the CDC come up with the 20,000 incidence estimate prior to reporting of HI ????

From the CDC Pink Book:

Before the availability of national reporting data, several areas conducted active surveillance for H. influenzae disease, which allowed estimates of disease nationwide.

TRANSLATED: They used "surveillance" in a few cities in order to come up with a 20,000 incidence rate and 600 mortality rate. Meanwhile, these surveillance areas did not distinguish between serotypes.
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#44 of 66 Old 08-17-2006, 06:13 PM
 
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continued . . .


From the CDC Pink Book: The incidence of invasive Hib disease began to decline dramatically in the late 1980s, coincident with licensure of conjugate Hib vaccines

In other words, the vaccine had nothing to do with the initial dramatic decline. The incidence of hib dramatically declined around the same time a vaccine was licensed, not introduced.

At least the CDC acknowledges that it was a coincidence and made a point of stating "licensure" instead of "introduction" or "introduction and widespread use."

The incidence of HI type b would have continued to decline IN SPITE OF the vaccine . . . just as the other "no vax" serotypes declined.
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#45 of 66 Old 08-17-2006, 06:42 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Ok, I see. Thanks.
Ughh, you can't trust anyone can you Anyone can just take a statistic and manipulate it to make it say what they want I guess. :
It's like what they did with Polio. They changed the diagnosis criteria for it, and suddenly only counted the cases where they actually had been tested for it and VOILA! Look, we've ended Polio!
I sure am glad I have you ladies to fall back on:
Ok, I think I'm pretty confident about tomorrow. I think I was just having one of those paranoid obsessive new mommy moments
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#46 of 66 Old 08-17-2006, 06:44 PM
 
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I would also suggest not arguing or even "discussing" the vaccinations at the appointment. Just simply saying- we're not vaccinating today, it's not up for discussion.

good luck!

-Angela
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#47 of 66 Old 08-17-2006, 06:50 PM
 
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I had hib as a baby, in 1984 before a vax for it......the drs didnt see it as a huge deadly disease in me, gave mum some antibiotics and sent me home. I was a preemie as well.

unfortuantly, I didn't know about not vaxing until to late with ds, so has had the hib series. but my next kids wont. If you are bf hib wont be a big concern.
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#48 of 66 Old 08-17-2006, 06:58 PM
 
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Here is a quick search done in the vaers data base for Hib vaccines related deaths.
http://www.medalerts.org/vaersdb/fin...X=HIB&DIED=Yes

ETA: Approx 3 out of every 1000 people who come into close contact with a child who has Hib will get the disease (p 163 of What Your Dr May Not Tell You About Children's Vaccinations)
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#49 of 66 Old 08-17-2006, 07:15 PM
 
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Bacterial meningitis in the United States, 1978 through 1981. The National Bacterial Meningitis Surveillance Study
W. F. Schlech 3rd, J. I. Ward, J. D. Band, A. Hightower, D. W. Fraser and C. V. Broome


From 1977 to 1981, 18,642 cases of bacterial meningitis were reported to the Centers for Disease Control.

We analyzed data from 27 states with full participation from 1978 through 1981. Hemophilus influenzae was the most frequent cause of bacterial meningitis (48.3%), [LONGISLAND'S NOTE: ***ALL*** SEROTYPES] followed by Neisseria meningitidis (19.6%) and Streptococcus pneumoniae (13.3%).


http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content...ct/253/12/1749
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#50 of 66 Old 08-17-2006, 07:23 PM
 
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Also keep in mind that there has been a decrease in all HI serotypes, not just type b.
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#51 of 66 Old 08-17-2006, 07:46 PM
 
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I know about the fear, I really do. I took DD in at 3 months and was talked into both Hib and Prevnar, which I had decided beforehand that I would NOT get. We got there and the doctor started saying "meningitis" and "deadly" and "she would die if she got these diseases", etc., etc. And we're all so afraid of meningitis.

Did you know that some other countries have a vaccine for meningococcal disease on their regular infant or early childhood schedule? I bet you never even think about that one, since it isn't on the infant schedule here. Just wait - it will be soon. And then they'll start telling us all how deadly that is and how likely our children are to die if they don't have that vaccine. It never ends.

I think it *should* make you feel better that none of us received the Hib vaccine. We all made it to adulthood, the vast majority without ever experiencing any serious Hib-related illness. In fact, if you start asking people your parents' age, I bet most of them will tell you they never even knew of a child dying of meningitis. 600 out of MILLIONS born every year is not a lot. It really isn't. Especially when you can bet that over half of them were formula fed, another percentage were suffering from other health conditions, etc. It was probably only a very, very few healthy, breastfed infants living in a cigarrette smoke-free home that suffered from severe Hib disease, and even fewer who suffered any long-term consequences or died.
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#52 of 66 Old 08-17-2006, 09:21 PM
 
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I think this thread should go in the archives!
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#53 of 66 Old 08-17-2006, 11:24 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by annalily
I think this thread should go in the archives!

I agree, there is only one thread about Hib in the archives.
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#54 of 66 Old 08-18-2006, 02:34 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gnu
The first Hib vaccine was licensed in 1985. Hib was put on the childhood recommended schedule of immunizations in 1993. Prior to 1991, Hib was not a notifiable disease.
Just a bit of history. There was a vaccine introduced in 1986, but it all turned up-end.

I have notes taken of the rat trials presented by the FDA of the Hib trials which showed that the early Hib vaccine, licenced in 1985, which was the early polysaccharide one, not the later conjugated Hib vaccine, not only provoked Hib in rats (by causing transient immune suppression for 7 - 14 days) but also in humans.

That is why the polysaccharide vaccine was kept very very quiet. It continued to be used after 1987, but was rapidly replaced with the conjugate vaccine, and the CDC prefer not to talk about this.

I've scanned and posted at photobucket the memorandum sent to all paediatricians.

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f7...rion/upeB6.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f7...rion/upeBD.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f7...rion/upeC9.jpg

But I won't leave them there forever, so if you want them, download them onto your computer.

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#55 of 66 Old 08-18-2006, 02:37 AM
 
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The note on this memorandum relates to the menomune A vaccine used in this country about that time, which had the same manufacturing process was also tested in Finland, had no side effects or problems there, but was a PITB here.

“I want to sell drugs to everyone. I want to sell drugs to healthy people. I want drugs to sell like chewing gum.” former Merck CEO, Henry Gadsden

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#56 of 66 Old 08-18-2006, 02:38 AM
 
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PPS they were not my underlinings. They were done by the doctor who supplied the memorandum to me.

“I want to sell drugs to everyone. I want to sell drugs to healthy people. I want drugs to sell like chewing gum.” former Merck CEO, Henry Gadsden

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#57 of 66 Old 08-18-2006, 02:43 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Ryleigh's Mommy~
OK wait, let me make sure I really do understand, lol.
Ok so if you vaccinate against Hib, it won't cause an increase in other HI bacteria, but it will cause an increase in pneumonoccocal.
But if you vaccinate with PCV, it does increase the chance of other strains of PC taking over.
I knew that the prevnar only covered 7 of the 90something strains, leaving room for the others to move in.
But as I understand it, if you vaccinate against Hib, it DOESN'T leave room for other HI to move in.
It was the part about vaxing against Hib leaving room for PC that I was incorrect.
Correct?
http://www.cbc.ca/story/science/nati...h.html?ref=rss

Quote:
Vaccines are becoming less effective in combating some strains of bacteria that cause meningitis, pneumonia and upper respiratory infections in the North, an international meeting of health officers being held in Siberia has heard.

The International Congress on Circumpolar Health has heard that a vaccine that has eliminated the threat caused by seven strains of pneumococcus bacteria isn't working as well as it did when it was introduced just five years ago.

Medical officials have relied on the vaccine Prevnar for several years to protect infants against the bacteria, responsible for 80 per cent of pneumococcal disease. Now, they say, it's beginning to fail to protect infants against new strains on the rise.

"The vaccine is covering those serotypes that were most prevalent in Alaska and has reduced them dramatically," said Dr. Michael Bruce of the Centre for Disease Control, based at the Arctic Investigations Program in Anchorage.

"And now we're seeing other serotypes moving in to fill the niche and so that is worrisome."

..."We are starting to see that similar kind of thing that as you protect against one strain of the bacteria, others that didn't formally play a significant role may from time to time produce serious disease," he said.

Larke also points to worrisome developments with the Haemophilus Influenza type B vaccine, which he says has been almost miraculous in the fight against meningitis. The disease can lead to brain damage and deafness in infants.

Medical officers are now seeing another serious strain, called Type A, and there's no vaccine for it.
What does this say to you?

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#58 of 66 Old 08-18-2006, 02:46 AM
 
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If that's not serotype replacement, what is. So in return for the use of the Hib vaccine, in came pneumococcus and now a new Hib strain, and in return for prevnar in hop a whole lot of new strains to fill the empty hole.

So what will they do?

Say "What we need are new vaccines to them all"

“I want to sell drugs to everyone. I want to sell drugs to healthy people. I want drugs to sell like chewing gum.” former Merck CEO, Henry Gadsden

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#59 of 66 Old 08-18-2006, 03:36 PM - Thread Starter
 
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The appt went great!
When I told the pedi that I didn't want to continue with the Hib and prevnar because according to the CDC, she doesn't have a SINGLE risk factor for them, and because of diabetes thing and the whole serotype/organism replacement, she was totally supportive. She then asked what our long term plans for vaxing were. When I told her, she said that when she gets a little older "make sure to take her to those chicken pox and measles parties as soon as you find out about them because they are only contagious for a short time" and to "make sure and go if you find one because they don't have a whole lot of those parties anymore"
Even though I had planned on taking her to those types of parties, I never mentioned it to her, she brought it up first!

Thanks everyone!


~Melissa~
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#60 of 66 Old 08-18-2006, 03:37 PM
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What a cool ped

PhDin' mama to dd (Oct. 2005)
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