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-   HIB and Prevnar (http://www.mothering.com/forum/114-hib-prevnar/)
-   -   Talk to me about serotype replacement (sp?) (http://www.mothering.com/forum/114-hib-prevnar/803491-talk-me-about-serotype-replacement-sp.html)

CanidFL 12-03-2007 06:01 PM

What exactly is this?

What vaccines use this?

Why is this bad?

I would like to start learning/researching this. I hear about it on these boards and do not understand.

Thanks

carriebft 12-03-2007 06:14 PM

The niche left by destroying one type of bacteria often is taken up by another. So if you destroy hypothetical bactera serotype A, then bacteria serotype B takes its place. (very brief version of explaination!)

mamakay 12-03-2007 06:26 PM

Here's a thead:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=574250

13Sandals 12-03-2007 06:58 PM

all bacterial vaccines can cause this - Prevnar most notably (try googling Prevnar and staph). Also a concern with Gardasil (hpv) vax, as there are over 30 cancer causing strains of the virus, but only two of these covered by the vax..

julieann199930 12-03-2007 07:54 PM

HIB to prevnar and now meningitis vax in toddlers/schoolage
HPV vax..other types not in the vaccine may very well increase
cp to increase in shingles

Screw with Mother Nature and she bites back!

Gitti 12-03-2007 08:35 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canada View Post
What exactly is this?
When we try and eliminate a bacteria (for instance made-up type A) with a vaccine we create a void which will be taken up by some other bacteria. Let's say type B which has been a harmless bacteria up to now.

So now type B bacteria has a lot more room to become invasive and turns out to be a greater pathogen or nuisance than bacteria type A which we got rid of.

But there is no vaccine for type B and kids are getting sick with a B bacterial infection.

The conclusion is the Vaccine against type A bacteria is successful. 95% less sickness by type A bacteria.

No one mentions that kids are now becoming very sick and some are dying from bacteria B. But the medical community knows it. They start to develop a vaccine for type B bacteria.

Suddenly you hear about a "new" disease. Bacterial type B infection.
But "anti-B" vaccine will save our kids....

On and on.

There is no end to vaccines against bacteria. We have a never ending supply of bacteria in our body and the only way to prevent disease is to keep them in check and balance which nature does very well.


The vaccines that are notorious for serotype replacement are Hib and Prevnar.

amydep 12-03-2007 08:53 PM

OK....let me ask this question because I am really uneducated on serotype replacement. Let's say Hib protects against bacteria "A". But then by doing that it allows for bacteria "B" and "C" (or whatever) to fill the void. Bacteria "B" and "C" are already there, right? So, if you vaccinate against "A", then maybe you are still able to be exposed to "B" and "C", but no longer "A". But, someone NOT vaccinated at all is still able to get "A", "B" and "C". By not vaccinating, it is not like you are keeping yourself from being exposed to "B" and "C", right? Or am I completely confused??? :

mamakay 12-03-2007 09:24 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by amydep View Post
OK....let me ask this question because I am really uneducated on serotype replacement. Let's say Hib protects against bacteria "A". But then by doing that it allows for bacteria "B" and "C" (or whatever) to fill the void. Bacteria "B" and "C" are already there, right? So, if you vaccinate against "A", then maybe you are still able to be exposed to "B" and "C", but no longer "A". But, someone NOT vaccinated at all is still able to get "A", "B" and "C". By not vaccinating, it is not like you are keeping yourself from being exposed to "B" and "C", right? Or am I completely confused??? :
Sorta.
The thing is that you're often colonized with multiple potentially pathogenic types of bacteria at one time, and there's something (sometimes it's mysterious) that happens that causes those bacteria to quit behaving as flora and become causes of "infection". (often a viral illness, for example...catch the flu and recover, except for that lingering sinus infection, type of thing.)

So because there's more "space" for the non-vaccine species, they do what the vaccine types would have done, and they make you sick.

That's the most basic part of what goes on. It gets more complicated though in that bacteria are able to exchange genetic information with each other just by basically bumping into each other, so when you go changing the ecosystem, all kinds of crazy things can happen. Nobody really knows what all is going on with all that quite yet, though.

amydep 12-03-2007 09:29 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mamakay View Post
Sorta.
The thing is that you're often colonized with multiple potentially pathogenic types of bacteria at one time, and there's something (sometimes it's mysterious) that happens that causes those bacteria to quit behaving as flora and become causes of "infection". (often a viral illness, for example...catch the flu and recover, except for that lingering sinus infection, type of thing.)

So because there's more "space" for the non-vaccine species, they do what the vaccine types would have done, and they make you sick.

That's the most basic part of what goes on. It gets more complicated though in that bacteria are able to exchange genetic information with each other just by basically bumping nto each other, so when you go changing the ecosystem, all kinds of crazy things can happen. Nobody really knows what all is going on with all that quite yet, though.

So, it would basically be a never-ending process and they would have to keep coming up with new vaccines to take care of the bacteria that become the dominant ones, right? So, is it then better to NOT get the vaccines and leave the bacteria in a natural balance so that the ones that are currently the dominant ones STAY dominant instead of allowing the secondary bacteria to then become dominant?

Gitti 12-03-2007 09:37 PM

There are millions of bacteria in our body. Our body is composed of more bacterial and viral cells than what we consider human cells. We are a part of them and they are a part of us. We depend on them and we believe they depend on us. Each human being is an ecosystem in himself.

No one knows how the immune system works. No one. We know less about the immune system than we know about the solar system. And that is basically nothing.

With each new finding in the field of immunology many new questions arise.

I bank my explanation on gut instinct and common sense and will explain it the best way I can.

There are people here who are scientists and certainly can explain things a lot better but no one knows exactly how it all works together. And no one knows what happens to the vaccine once it is injected. It is all guess work and theory.



Quote:
Originally Posted by armydep View Post
But then by doing that it allows for bacteria "B" and "C" (or whatever) to fill the void. Bacteria "B" and "C" are already there, right?
Let's say, yes, B and C are already in the body. Of course so may have been A. They may all be gut flora.


Quote:
So, if you vaccinate against "A", then maybe you are still able to be exposed to "B" and "C", but no longer "A".
It is not necessarily about exposure. It is about the body-ecosystem which is becoming off balance. You got rid of "A" and now "B" and "C" take over.


Quote:
But, someone NOT vaccinated at all is still able to get "A", "B" and "C".
Or have A B and C and none overwhelm. So none can turn into a pathogen.


Quote:
By not vaccinating, it is not like you are keeping yourself from being exposed to "B" and "C", right?
You may have all three and they keep each other in balance. That is the more likely scenario IMO.

Gitti 12-03-2007 09:41 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by amydep View Post
So, it would basically be a never-ending process and they would have to keep coming up with new vaccines to take care of the bacteria that become the dominant ones, right? So, is it then better to NOT get the vaccines and leave the bacteria in a natural balance so that the ones that are currently the dominant ones STAY dominant instead of allowing the secondary bacteria to then become dominant?

That is soooooooooooo right!


Vaccinating against bacteria is like opening a can of worms.

amydep 12-03-2007 10:04 PM

So, what do you do when you have already partially vaccinated your child against HIB? Or, completely vaccinated one and partially vaccinated the other?

attachedmamaof3 12-03-2007 10:12 PM

It depends on what you WANT to do.

IMO, stop vaccinating the sooner the better. But, understand, I'm biased and don't vax at all.

amydep 12-03-2007 10:16 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by attachedmamaof3 View Post
It depends on what you WANT to do.

IMO, stop vaccinating the sooner the better. But, understand, I'm biased and don't vax at all.
What I WANT is for my kids to be the healthiest that they can possibly be. I used to think that this was accomplished by getting them vaccines, but thankfully MDC has shown me the other side of the coin. I have learned more here than I have learned anywhere else! The vaccine issue is something more complex than I can wrap my brain around. There are some things that are discussed on this board that are way beyond my understanding. :

attachedmamaof3 12-03-2007 10:24 PM

I gotcha.

I just meant that it's a very personal decision based out of what we think is in the best interests of our children. Two parents may come to two totally different decisions based on the same information.

If I understand you correctly you're worried about doing more harm by stopping the series you've already started? From what I've found, stopping mid-series does not have ill effects. The balance would be slightly off-set from normal, but easier to recover from than a complete series. That's what I meant by stopping sooner rather than later. You can always "catch-up" on your vaccinations if that's what you decide to do, but you can't undo what have already been given.

attachedmamaof3 12-03-2007 10:26 PM

Just an FYI, my oldest is partially vaxxed and my two youngest not at all. There's a LOT of us on here that have stopped mid-series or mid-vax schedule after beginning to question the validity of vax science.

Gitti 12-03-2007 10:54 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by armydep View Post
So, what do you do when you have already partially vaccinated your child against HIB? Or, completely vaccinated one and partially vaccinated the other?
You stop vaccinating. Period. That is the best you can do for them. My oldest grandson was vaccinated up to 15 mo. Then we got enlightened and stopped. Thank heavens. He had some pretty long fevers around age 5 and 6. Some very high and long. We did not intervene but kept him comfortable. I really believe he rid himself of the poisons at that time. After those times he improved in a lot of ways. He is a normal, healthy, and popular 10 yo now.



Quote:
Originally Posted by armydep View Post
What I WANT is for my kids to be the healthiest that they can possibly be. I used to think that this was accomplished by getting them vaccines...
Unfortunately a lot of people believe that. But in fact studies have shown that vaccine-free kids are by far healthier than vaccinated kids. Unfortunately the vaccine manufacturers will NEVER do that sort of study. IMO this is not because it is "unethical" but rather because they fear the results.

amydep 12-03-2007 11:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by attachedmamaof3 View Post
Just an FYI, my oldest is partially vaxxed and my two youngest not at all. There's a LOT of us on here that have stopped mid-series or mid-vax schedule after beginning to question the validity of vax science.
This is good to know! I certainly wouldn't want to cause MORE problems by stopping in the middle of a series.

amydep 12-03-2007 11:23 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gitti View Post
Unfortunately a lot of people believe that. But in fact studies have shown that vaccine-free kids are by far healthier than vaccinated kids. Unfortunately the vaccine manufacturers will NEVER do that sort of study. IMO this is not because it is "unethical" but rather because they fear the results.
Of course they wouldn't do that kind of study. If they did and it showed that unvaxed kids are healthier, then people would stop vaxing. They would then lose money from not only not selling their vaxes, but also from not selling the drugs that people have to buy because they are chronically ill due to being immune compromised from the vaccines that they received in the past. I think I'm finally getting it....

carriebft 12-04-2007 12:06 AM

Quote:
But in fact studies have shown that vaccine-free kids are by far healthier than vaccinated kids.
Could you post these? I would love to take a look at them.

CanidFL 12-04-2007 12:09 AM

Ok, this makes a lot of sense to me now. Basically vaccinating against bacteria is not good. I have no plans to vaccinate but I enjoy knowing what people are talking about on these threads.

I am also under the impression that I did not get hib and prevnar as a child and I never even thought about getting these diseases unless there was a kid in college who contracted it and even then I didn't worry all that much.

So you don't have to worry about this with measles, mumps, diptheria, rubella, and polio? Nothing replaces these?

Science Mom 12-04-2007 12:31 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanidFL View Post
Ok, this makes a lot of sense to me now. Basically vaccinating against bacteria is not good.
No, vaccinating for bacteria that have numerous biotypes and are transient microflora is not necessarily good.

Quote:
I am also under the impression that I did not get hib and prevnar as a child and I never even thought about getting these diseases unless there was a kid in college who contracted it and even then I didn't worry all that much.
Depends upon how old you are and you most assuredly didn't get Prevnar . Hib was a major cause for infant meningitis, it no longer is due to the vaccine and the vaccine is still beneficial for infants.

Quote:
So you don't have to worry about this with measles, mumps, diptheria, rubella, and polio? Nothing replaces these?
No, those are pretty stable and there are some different vaccine strains for the geographical genotypes.

SM

mamakay 12-04-2007 12:56 AM

Quote:
No, those are pretty stable and there are some different vaccine strains for the geographical genotypes.

SM
You sure about that?
The MMR is basically the MMR internationally now for the most part as far as I know, (there are a couple of measles and mumps strains, but they're not based on what's circulating in any given area...they'd be interchangable) and with polio, there's Sabin 1 (I know that one's mahoney strain), 2, and 3 and that's tOPV everywhere, too.

Science Mom 12-04-2007 01:43 PM

Measles, Mumps and to a lesser extent, Rubella most certainly have a geographical circulating genotypes and the vaccine strains are based upon the respective progenitor wild-types.
Mumps: Urabe AM-9, Rubini, Leningrad-3, Leningrad-Zagreb, Hoshimo, Miyahara, Torii, NK M-46 and S-12 are all currently used in various parts of the world.

Measles: CAM-70 (spanking new in S. America), AIK-C, Moraten, Rubeovax, Schwarz, Edomonston-Zagreb and Edmonston, used all over.

Rubella: Cendenhill, RA27/3 and TO-336, ditto.

OPV: Yes, pretty much 1, 2 and 3 all over the world.

SM

carriebft 12-04-2007 02:27 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gitti View Post




Unfortunately a lot of people believe that. But in fact studies have shown that vaccine-free kids are by far healthier than vaccinated kids. Unfortunately the vaccine manufacturers will NEVER do that sort of study. IMO this is not because it is "unethical" but rather because they fear the results.
Asking again to see these studies, would like to look at them. thanks

krizzanne 12-04-2007 09:23 PM

my keyboard is broken.
question: in this link: http://www.cdc.gov/Ncidod/EID/vol5no3/lipsitch.htm

in the section entitled:
Why Has Replacement Carriage Occurred with Pneumococcal Conjugate Vaccines but Not with Hib Vaccines?

Is the answer that there are not enough HIB carriers to show serotype replacement mathamatically....??? I don't think I am understanding this part.

and isn't HIB showing up more in older kids now as opposed to before the vazx?

Gitti 12-04-2007 09:38 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by carriebft View Post
Could you post these? I would love to take a look at them.
I am talking about the "Salzburg Study". The information was collected by a teacher.

http://www.*********/a/children1.html

http://www.909shot.com/Diseases/dimedia.htm

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...t=AbstractPlus



Quote:
Originally Posted by CanidFL View Post
So you don't have to worry about this with measles, mumps, diptheria, rubella, and polio? Nothing replaces these?
I'm not so sure? We have a 5th disease now since there is the measles vaccine that is making a strong appearance.

Science Mom 12-04-2007 10:25 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gitti View Post
I am talking about the "Salzburg Study". The information was collected by a teacher.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...t=AbstractPlus
None of the other links were to actual studies. I would like to know what the authors concluded in this linked study.

SM

carriebft 12-04-2007 10:31 PM

The first study only had 23 unvaccinated children out of almost 1300 children studied...

You can't really draw anything from that. Or is tehre more to the study than that abstract? I can't seem to find the whole thing anywhere. But the percentages of vaccinated chidlren with asthma issues would mean nothing in comparison to only 23 unvaccinated.

Checking out the other links later! Thanks!

mamakay 12-04-2007 10:54 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by krizzanne View Post
my keyboard is broken.
question: in this link: http://www.cdc.gov/Ncidod/EID/vol5no3/lipsitch.htm

in the section entitled:
Why Has Replacement Carriage Occurred with Pneumococcal Conjugate Vaccines but Not with Hib Vaccines?

Is the answer that there are not enough HIB carriers to show serotype replacement mathamatically....??? I don't think I am understanding this part.

and isn't HIB showing up more in older kids now as opposed to before the vazx?
This s kinda complicated, but where the replacement has happened with Hi, it's not an actual serotype. They were looking for Hi serotype A (HiA)or Hi serotype F (HiF) or some strain with a capsule (and corresponding letter to name it) to replace Hi serotype B...but what replaced B was a type that's called "non-typeable" (NTHi). They used to think the non-typeable strain was more or less incapeable of causing serious disease, but that's not how it ended up working.

So it's "replacement disease" but not "serotype replacement", technically, because the non-typeable strain isn't an actual serotype.

ETA: That article is really old, too. (going on 10 years now?) It's been pretty recently that they figured out that NTHi has exploded, and it's relationship to Hib.


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