Chicken pox, shingles, vaccine link - Mothering Forums
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
#1 of 11 Old 12-21-2004, 09:01 PM - Thread Starter
 
MarineWife's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: on the edge
Posts: 11,521
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I was talking to a friend recently about her FIL getting shingles so she had to keep her 1yo away from him until he's not contagious anymore. That conversation led to a conversation about chicken pox, shingles and the vaccine. I referred her to the NVIC website for info on the varicella vaccine. We came across something on there chicken pox page that seemed contradictory to the info we had found on shingles. The NVIC page says that a 2002 study confirmed that adults who are exposed to natural chicken pox are protected against shingles. However, the info we read on shingles says that you only get shingles if you've had chicken pox. So, the question came up how can you be protected from shingles if you've had chicken pox if you can't get shingles unless you've had chicken pox? And, if this is the case, then why the concern about an increase in the incidence of shingles from widespread use of the vaccine.

I talked to a friend who told me it all depends at what age you get chicken pox. She said if you get chicken pox as a child, you will have lifetime immunity from chicken pox and shingles. However, if you get chicken pox as a teenager or adult, you are at risk of getting shingles later in life. If you get the varicella vaccine rather than having natural chicken pox, you are more likely to get chicken pox later in life since the vaccine immunity is known to wear off. Consequently, more people contracting chicken pox as teenagers and adults would result in more adults developing shingles as well.

Now I am looking for scientific info to back up that statement to show my friend so she doesn't think I'm a complete idiot for referring her to a website that appears to contradict what is known about shingles. Unfortunately, the NVIC website did not reference the study it was referring to so there's no way for me to verify what is written or to get into the specifics about that study with my friend. Does anyone have any links to any scientific studies or medical info that discusses the differences between natural chicken pox immunity, vaccine immunity, age and the link to shingles? TIA

knit.gifSAHM to 3 boys and 1 man; 22 jammin.gif, 9REPlaySkateboard04HL.gif, 5 FIREdevil.gifand now 1 year oldtoddler.gif!

MarineWife is offline  
#2 of 11 Old 12-21-2004, 09:21 PM
 
Gitti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Ready to move on...
Posts: 14,805
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Ok, I just lost everything I wrote. Grrrrrrrrr

Here is a link and I'll be back later...Sorry!

CP Vaccine increases risk for shingles
Gitti is offline  
#3 of 11 Old 12-21-2004, 09:56 PM
 
Mylie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,524
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
He came down with Chicken Pox naturally when he was 7 years old on Christmas Day.The following year in November he came down with the shingles.He had had a reconstructive surgury on his uretha and bladder almost a month earlier.His doc said the stress of being sick and having surgury brought it out and that sometimes when you the chiki pox the shingles can lay dormant in your spine until it comes out.My son has only had one more outbreak since.He has never has the chicken Pox vaccine.
Mylie is online now  
#4 of 11 Old 12-21-2004, 10:02 PM
 
nomadmom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: wandering again
Posts: 1,140
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarineWife
I talked to a friend who told me it all depends at what age you get chicken pox. She said if you get chicken pox as a child, you will have lifetime immunity from chicken pox and shingles. However, if you get chicken pox as a teenager or adult, you are at risk of getting shingles later in life.
I don't have any scientific info., but my sister had cp at around age 5 and developed shingles in her late 20's. I also know of a case where a baby developed shingles (can't remember, but possibly was exposed to cp in utero).

I was under the impression that you *can't* contract cp by being exposed to someone w/ shingles. Am I wrong?
nomadmom is offline  
#5 of 11 Old 12-21-2004, 11:49 PM
 
Gitti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Ready to move on...
Posts: 14,805
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarineWife
... adults who are exposed to natural chicken pox are protected against shingles.
No, children who are exposed to CP and then again in adulthood and again when they are grandparents are protected from shingles.

Each time they are exposed it acts as a natural booster. But it must be within 20 - 25 or so years. The immunity does not last longer.


Quote:
However, the info we read on shingles says that you only get shingles if you've had chicken pox.
That is my understanding. You only get shingles if you have had the CP first.

The virus is stored somewhere in your spine. It weakens though, and if you are not re-exposed to it during the next 25 or so years, it will not protect you against shingles in the golden years.

Shingles can also be brought on by severe stress like a 'cold sore'.


Quote:
And, if this is the case, then why the concern about an increase in the incidence of shingles from widespread use of the vaccine.
Vaccines do not offer the same immunity. And unless it is repeated every 25 years it will increase the chance for shingles. And simply revaccinating, which I am sure they are going to do, will not work, because those vaccines are much more dangerous in adults than in children. Besides it still is no guarantee against shingles.

When we get a natural booster, we do not get the virus into the blood, we simply get the antibodies stirred up again.

The best way to avoid shingles is certainly to not get CP.
But that is unlikely.
So, the next best thing would be to get the CP naturally in the formative years and let your children and grandchildren experience them also thereby giving you the boosters to prevent shingles.

That is the way it always has been and now they are messing with another quite benign childhood disease, confusing our immune system, up and then "preventing" what they have caused with another vaccine against shingles. Medicine is just wonderful!



Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadmom
I was under the impression that you *can't* contract cp by being exposed to someone w/ shingles. Am I wrong?
Yes, you can get CP from someone with shingles but it's not very likely.
Gitti is offline  
#6 of 11 Old 12-22-2004, 12:48 AM - Thread Starter
 
MarineWife's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: on the edge
Posts: 11,521
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadmom
I was under the impression that you *can't* contract cp by being exposed to someone w/ shingles. Am I wrong?
My friend's pediatrician told her that her DD could not get shingles but could get CP from her grandfather with shingles.

knit.gifSAHM to 3 boys and 1 man; 22 jammin.gif, 9REPlaySkateboard04HL.gif, 5 FIREdevil.gifand now 1 year oldtoddler.gif!

MarineWife is offline  
#7 of 11 Old 12-22-2004, 11:08 AM
 
amnesiac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: at the end of the longest line
Posts: 4,984
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Yes, you can get cx pox from shingles.

"Chicken pox vaccine: Why not?
During a recent chicken pox outbreak at a New Hampshire child care center, a child vaccinated three years earlier infected more than half of his classmates who had no history of ever having the illness. While the vaccine manufacturer claims a much higher efficacy rate for the vaccine, researchers in this case found the vaccine to only be 44% effective. This might not be quite what you expect when you have your toddler vaccinated to prevent chicken pox.

In a study of another outbreak, Barna D. Tugwell, M.D., and colleagues found a vaccine effectiveness rate of 72% and evidence that immunity wanes over time following vaccination. “Booster vaccination may deserve additional consideration,” they noted. Just as one dose of measles vaccine historically became two, it is likely that one dose of varicella vaccine will become two or more.

Also as we’ve seen with measles, as varicella incidence drops among children, young adults will lose their source of natural immune boosting. They will become susceptible to infection in adulthood, when complications are more likely, and they will also be more likely to develop shingles. The manufacturer’s website itself attests to this fact. Natural chicken pox results in life-long immunity. A robust immune system following natural infection keeps the virus at bay, preventing shingles.

Mothers who have poor immunity to the virus will pass on less protection to their babies. This means that babies will become susceptible to the illness at a younger age than those born to mothers who successfully recovered from chicken pox and experienced the boosting effect from the virus circulating in their communities."
http://www.naturalfamilyonline.com/Y...l-vaccines.htm
amnesiac is offline  
#8 of 11 Old 12-22-2004, 05:26 PM - Thread Starter
 
MarineWife's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: on the edge
Posts: 11,521
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks everyone. So I guess I was partially right. Let's see if I've got this straight. If you get natural chicken pox as a child and are periodically exposed to the natural virus throughout your life, you will have natural immunity to chicken pox and shingles. However, widespread use of the vaccine will drop the incidence of natural exposure to the disease, which will result in a weakened immune response to shingles. Is that correct?

knit.gifSAHM to 3 boys and 1 man; 22 jammin.gif, 9REPlaySkateboard04HL.gif, 5 FIREdevil.gifand now 1 year oldtoddler.gif!

MarineWife is offline  
#9 of 11 Old 12-22-2004, 05:51 PM
 
amnesiac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: at the end of the longest line
Posts: 4,984
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Yes. And anytime you have decreased immune function you are more likely to have shingles as well because it doesn't keep the virus under control. Same thing for that whole family of viruses.
amnesiac is offline  
#10 of 11 Old 12-22-2004, 11:25 PM - Thread Starter
 
MarineWife's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: on the edge
Posts: 11,521
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Ok, so why purposely expose children who are not getting the vaccine to chicken pox if it puts them at risk of getting shingles in addition to getting chicken pox?

knit.gifSAHM to 3 boys and 1 man; 22 jammin.gif, 9REPlaySkateboard04HL.gif, 5 FIREdevil.gifand now 1 year oldtoddler.gif!

MarineWife is offline  
#11 of 11 Old 12-23-2004, 12:32 AM
 
amnesiac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: at the end of the longest line
Posts: 4,984
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Chicken pox in childhood is very benign. In adulthood it can be very serious. Especially if a woman is pregnant when she gets it. Also, non immune women have babies who are vulnerable at earlier ages when they are more likely to experience complications. Bottom line is you want to have it when you are young to minimize the risk of complications & you want to maintain strong immune system throughout life in addition to viral circulation within the community for the boosting effect so that the virus stays in check & you don't have shingles. Vaccinated children can still get shingles & are more likely than children who have actually had the pox to develop shingles because they don't have as strong an immune response. It is a live virus vaccine so vaccinated children are actually exposed to the virus, it's just weakened.
amnesiac is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off