Hep B shot for Hep B positive mother? - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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Old 12-30-2005, 05:38 AM
 
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Okay, here's an explanation. If you are a carrier, you are either Hepatitis B surface antigen positive AND core antigen positive. (Imagine, the surface antigen like an envelope around a letter. It has an address ( Hi I'm from Hepatitis B) but nothing much of importance in terms of information. The core antigen is the letter inside the envelope, the really important bit. It is the infectious bit, or the "information" that will spread inside your body)

Or a carrier might only be surface antigen positive and NOT core antigen positive.

Carriers don't have antibodies, they only have antigen.

If you are ONLY surface antigen positive and NOT core antigen (which is the infectious DNA - think "letter") positive, you can't pass Hepatitis B on to your baby.

If you are infectious DNA positive then there is a much higher probability that you can give it to your baby.

Given that you say you are sometimes "yellow" then there is a chance that you are core antigen positive, but I'd really need to know from your blood test results.

Does your midwife have those results, do you know? Can you ask her what they are?

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Old 12-30-2005, 05:40 AM
 
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If you have antibodies, you can't be a carrier, and can't give anything to your baby, so that's why I need it clarified for me, coz I don't want to get it wrong...

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Old 12-30-2005, 05:52 AM
 
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You've been sick off and on over many years and your providers haven't ever explained the antibodies? That makes me very cranky. It sounds like it's a possibility that you are not just a carrier, but have chronic hep B. In that case, it's more important than just trivia for you to know. One of the studies I linked talks about women with high viral levels (a different test from the antibody tests) getting anti-virals to prevent maternal transmission. If you have yellowing, they may have already done these tests. Perhaps your midwife may want to have the records from all your recents docs, not just your maternity records. If just so you can get copies of your labwork over the years for your files alone.

Although MT gave a great () description, I'll throw in my two cents in case it helps. Hopefully it won't hurt...I think of Hep B being like a quart of milk in a paper carton. If you wanted to prevent someone from being hurt by milk, you could teach them to recognize milk, or you could teach them to recognize the carton it comes in. The carton is the surface antigen. The milk is the core antigen. The vaccination (hopefully!) teaches the body all about cartons. If you find a body that "knows" cartons, that person has been vaccinated. If you find a body that knows what milk looks like, that person has been exposed to the real deal.

If you find milk...well, that's an antigen, and that means the person is potentially infectious. If you find empty cartons, that's an antigen, too, but cartons never hurt anyone.

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Old 12-30-2005, 07:22 AM
 
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good description.... Makes me cranky too Apricot, because the lack of explanation is not only patronising, its neglegence... how can anyone make any informed choice if they have never been told exactly what they have and the implications of it?



I was talking to a Melbourne doctor who does drug addict detox though, using intravenous vitamin C, and he told me that he has patients who had ongoing chronic hep B and carriage, yet one of the surprising results of using IV vitamin C as a detoxifier for the alcohol, was that within 6 months many of those drug addicts not only became Hep b antigen negative, but also suddenly became antibody positive.

So I no longer believe the tripe that someone with chronic Hep B can't become antibody positive either.

But I do know this. Often women when pregnant who are normally antibody positive sometimes show up surface antigen positive, yet revert to just antibody positive 6 weeks after having the baby. I haven't yet figured out what that's about

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Old 01-01-2006, 12:14 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Trying to get a hold of my records, I don't have a doctor or midwife right now. Mom says that she doesn't remember, but thinks that I had the core antigens when little. I haven't had it checked out since I don't think. I've had blood tests while pregnant that said I was Hep B positive (which I already knew, and told them, before they tested me for it) but they never said anything about the antigens. Since the blood from birth is what makes it risky, would a water birth help in that situation? Or is that thinking too simply?

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Old 01-01-2006, 01:43 AM
 
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Hep B testing, Syphilis, and Rubella testing are all part of the standard OB blood test panel. It's cheaper to order the whole panel than break it down into parts and omit the Hep B. I think it's great that providers minimize costs, but I dislike the lack of consent that happens sometimes.

I think a water birth sounds like a great idea! It's sorta like a douche, no? As long as the water didn't remove natural birth lubricants (and I haven't seen that happen at all), it seems to be a good idea, at least at first glance. I'll take a look tomorrow and see if there's any data about techniques to prevent blood borne infections with a vaginal birth. Off hand, I'd think avoiding rupture of membranes and episotomy would be good, but I'll see if there's clinical evidence.

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Old 01-01-2006, 02:08 AM
 
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i have found a few websites with facts about the disease that i found very helpful....http://www.mercola.com/article/vacc...suppression.htm on this one you can search for transmission and some info will come up make sure to include hep b, www.vaccineinfo.net is also a good website That also has many facts on it. I hope this has helped you. I would seek out a homopatic or Holistic dr and talk about your options if you were or were not to vac and if transmission did accure. just a sugesstion Good luck

Emily
ps another good site more for over all better health is www.phmiracleliving.com A lot of really good valuable health info also some articles that might help!

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Old 01-01-2006, 02:24 AM
 
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Found this article to be intresting found it on www.phmiracleliving.comand kinda off topic but thought it couldnt hurt to read! just trying to help
Not sure if i can copy and paste it but i thought it had some good things to say!
Emily

"Doctors and Scientists Condemn Vaccinations
In 1995. I wrote a technical essay called, 'A Second Thought About
Viruses, Vacines and the HIV/AIDS Hypothesis', which was published
in a Canadian magazine called 'Alive' and subsequently published in
my book, 'Sick and Tired' by Woodland Publishing, in 1999.

In the article found in the technical essay section of 'Sick and Tired,'
you will find my hypothesis of why vaccinations are potentially
harmful and are the leading cause to many of the diseases we are
trying to prevent. Many doctors and scientists around the world
have also come to the same conclusions as you will find from the
following references.

In love and light,

Dr. Robert O. Young
www.phmiracleliving.com


DOCTORS AND SCIENTISTS CONDEMN VACCINATION

'There is a great deal of evidence to prove that immunisation of
children does more harm than good.'
Dr J Anthony Morris, former Chief Vaccine Control Officer, US Food
and Drug Administration


'The greatest threat of childhood disease lies in the dangerous and
ineffectual efforts made to prevent them through mass
immunisation.'
Dr R. Mendelsohn, Author and Professor of Paediatrics
(How To Raise A Healthy Child In Spite Of Your Doctor)


'In our opinion, there is now sufficient evidence of immune
malfunction following current vaccination programmes to anticipate
growing public demands for research investigation into alternative
methods of prevention of infectious disease.'
Dr's H. Buttram and J. Hoffman
(Vaccinations and Immune Malfunctions)


'All vaccination has the effect of directing the three values of the
blood into or toward the zone characteristics of cancer and
leukemia...Vaccines DO predispose to cancer and leukaemia.'
Professor L.C. Vincent, Founder of Bioelectronics


'Every vaccine carries certain hazards and can produce inward
reactions in some people...in general, there are more vaccine
complications than is generally appreciated.'
Professor George Dick, London University


'Official data have shown that the large-scale vaccinations
undertaken in the US have failed to obtain any significant
improvement of the diseases against which they were supposed to
provide protection.'
Dr A. Sabin, developer of the Oral Polio vaccine (lecture to Italian
doctors in Piacenza, Italy, Decemebr 7th 1985)


'In addition to the many obvious cases of mortality from these
practices, there are also long-term hazards which are almost
impossible to estimate accurately...the inherent danger of all
vaccine procedures should be a deterrent to their unnecessary or
unjustifiable use.'
Sir Graham Wilson (The Hazards of Immunisation)


'Laying aside the very real possibility that the various vaccines are
contaminated with animal viruses and may cause serious illness
later in life (multiple sclerosis, cancer, leukaemia, etc) we must
consider whether the vaccines really work for their intended purpose.'
Dr W.C. Douglas (Cutting Edge, May 1990)


'The only wholly safe vaccine is a vaccine that is never used'
Dr James A. Shannon, National Institute of Health, USA


With reference to Smallpox;


'Vaccination is a monstrosity, a misbegotten offspring of error and
ignorance, it should have no place in either hygiene or medicine...
believe not in vaccination, it is a world-wide delusion, an unscientific
practice, a fatal superstition with consequences measured today by
tears and sorrow without end.'
Professor Chas Rauta, University of Perguia, Italy ,
(New York Medical Journal July 1899)


'Vaccination does not protect, it actually renders its subjects more
susceptible by depressing vital power and diminishing natural
resistance, and millions of people have died of smallpox which they
contracted after being vaccinated.'
Dr J.W. Hodge (The Vaccination Superstition)


'It is nonsense to think that you can inject pus - and it is usually
from the pustule end of the dead smallpox victim • it is unthinkable
that you can inject that into a little child and in any way improve its
health. What is true of vaccination is exactly as true of all forms of
serum immunisation, if we could by any means build up a natural
resistance to disease through these artificial means, I would
applaud it to the echo, but we can't do it.'
Dr William Howard Hay
(lecture to Medical Freedom Society, June 25th 1937)


'Immunisation against smallpox is more hazardous than the disease
itself.'
Professor Ari Zuckerman, World Health Organisation


With reference to Whooping Cough;

'There is no doubt in my mind that in the UK alone some hundreds,
if not thousands of well infants have suffered irreparable brain
damage needlessly and that their lives and those of their parents
have been wrecked in consequence.'
Professor Gordon Stewart, University of *******
(Here's Health, March 1980)


'My suspicion, which is shared by others in my profession, is that
the nearly 10,000 SIDS deaths that occur in the US each year are
related to one or more of the vaccines that are routinely given to
children. The pertussis (whooping cough) vaccine is the most likely
villain , but it could also be one or more of the others.'
Dr R Mendelsohn, Author and Professor of Paediatrics
(How To Raise A Healthy Child In Spite Of Your Doctor)


'The worst vaccine of all is the whooping cough vaccine...it is
responsible for a lot of deaths and for a lot of infants suffering
irreversible brain damage..'
Dr Archie Kalokerinos, Author and Vaccine Researcher
(Natural Health Convention, Stanwell Tops, NSW, Australia 1987)


With reference to Polio;


'Many here voice a silent view that the Salk and Sabin polio vaccine,
being made of monkey kidney tissue has been directly responsible
for the major increase in leukaemia in this country.'
Dr F. Klenner, Polio Researcher, USA


'No batch of vaccine can be proved to be safe before it is given to
children'
Surgeon General Leonard Scheele (AMA Convention 1955, USA)


'Live virus vaccines against influenza and paralytic polio, for example,
may in each instance cause the disease it is intended to prevent...'
Dr Jonas Salk, developer of first polio vaccine
(Science 4/4/77 Abstracts)

As an illustration, the issue of possible simian cytomegalovirus
(SCMV) contamination of live polio virus vaccines has been
suppressed since 1972. On the eve of Nixon's war on cancer, a
joint Lederle Corporation/FDA Bureau of Biologics study showed
that eleven test monkeys, imported for polio vaccine production,
tested positively for SCMV. The reluctance of the FDA to act on this
matter was revealed in a corporate memo delivered the following
year.

Even in 1995, following a report to FDA officials concerning a patient
infected with a SCMV-derived virus, no new in-house testing of polio
vaccines for SCMV has occurred. Moreover, this author's specific
requests for vaccine material to undertake specific testing, were
denied on the basis of protecting 'proprietary' interests.'--"
Nov

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Old 01-01-2006, 03:35 AM
 
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THANK YOU ! That's some great info.
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Old 01-01-2006, 03:46 AM
 
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We are a non-vaxing family.

If I had Hep B, I would vaccinate my children for it, asap.

Midwife (CPM, LDM) and homeschooling mama to:
14yo ds   11yo dd  9yo ds and 7yo ds and 2yo ds  
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Old 01-01-2006, 03:47 AM
 
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Old 01-01-2006, 03:48 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phathui5
We are a non-vaxing family.

If I had Hep B, I would vaccinate my children for it, asap.

Why ?
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Old 01-01-2006, 03:52 AM
 
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Because of the possibility that it would keep them from getting it. Because living with (and especially being carried and birthed by) someone with Hep B carries a great deal of risk of being exposed to it. Because Hep B isn't like having a cold. Or the chickenpox.

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14yo ds   11yo dd  9yo ds and 7yo ds and 2yo ds  
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Old 01-01-2006, 03:52 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Yeah, why? is where I'm at. I did for my last daughter, (only shot series she ever received). But I'm just not sure this time around. Now I'm not exactly swallowing that Hep B is this generally mild illness that almost always goes away on it's own and doesn't cause any issues. But that shot is a very scary one, I just found out that breast feeding isn't a risk (thanks Apricot). So maybe with a waterbirth, a good bath afterwards, some proper supplements, a good nd or chiro, and tons of breastfeeding might be a better way to go? I guess I would feel guilty if I didn't give this one the shot and she got the disease. But that's not reason enough to do it in my opinion.

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Old 01-01-2006, 05:16 AM
 
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I have had Hepatitis B twice (they presume different subtypes, but they presume a lot most of the time...) and it was no picnic. But even though the first one was really serious, and I do have an immunodeficiency, I did survive.

and..... by. the. way. I'm not a carrier, but I don't have any antibodies now either. However, I did have very low levels for 13 years.

And guess what? Some dork of a doctor tried to tell me that I had no immunity whatsoever, and should have a primary course of the vaccine.

Starting with my little finger on my left hand I went:

1) What do YOU know about cellular immunity?

2) What do YOU know about anamnestic response?

3) Do YOU know that most people, after and 15 years after a natural Hep B attack, DON'T have antibodies, but don't usually get it again either...

4) Exactly WHAT is it that causes a person who has had a disease in the past to continue to manufacture antibodies? Continued antigen stimulation? Doesn't that signify the body has NOT cleared the antigen from the system?

Oh and I reeled of a few other things too.

Malaya, what you need to know, and the only thing you need to know right now, is whether you are core antigen positive or not. The answer to that, will clarify all other issues.

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Old 01-28-2006, 04:35 AM - Thread Starter
 
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OK, I'm looking good. No core antigens but I am still testing positive for Hep B. So where should my train of thought be headed now?

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Old 01-28-2006, 11:54 PM
 
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I don't know where you train of thought will take you, but were I in your position, I would be thinking this.

If I have no core antigens then it isn't biologically plausible for me to infect my baby with infective viral material.

That I am still positive to the surface antigen means one of two things.

1) That my immune system is slightly defective, and unable to clear the virus from my liver, but that my immune system is efficiently containing it within the liver.

2) That the toxicity load is such that until its cleared the body can't snap up the virus in the liver.

I would talk to an Australian doctor I know called Dr Ian Brighthope, (who uses intravenous vitamin C to detoxify drug addicts and has told me that many of the drug users come in both core and surface antigen positive and finish with him core and antigen negative and antibody positive.) and ask him how much vitamin C I would need and what in my diet I'd need to adjust to try to clear the toxicities and take enough pressure off the liver to give me the best chance to make a final effort to try to rid myself of it.

(If you've had it since birth, that is one factor that makes it a bit tougher...)

In terms of the baby, I'm sure that if you keep up the vitamin C and other minerals and stuff, you shouldn't have core antigen released into your system. right now, you don't have, so hopefully you can see if there is a way to really get rid of it.

It would be reasonably to assume though, that at times when you feel terrible, and at those times, you may have infectious virus in the blood stream. After all the test results only indicate what happened that day, and you've said you have had period when you've been very unwell, so it might be a cyclical thing with you.

I have friends with iatrogenic Hepatitis C who have outlived the so-called maximum "life-span" and who have very little problem with it, becuase of their dietary and supplement regimine.

“I want to sell drugs to everyone. I want to sell drugs to healthy people. I want drugs to sell like chewing gum.” former Merck CEO, Henry Gadsden

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Old 01-29-2006, 12:05 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks, now I need to harass Long Island about how to get out of this vax and not go to jail. What kind of doctor would know how much Vitamin C I can safely take with out harming the baby? I have some sort of immune problem. They've never been able to diagnose it, but I get super high fevers, I'm always cold, often nauseas, my joints ache terribly, I'm always tired, ect. So somethings up that probably has nothing to do with the Hep B. Thanks again for the help everyone. I got lots more to read (mostly curiosity now, I've kind of already made up my mind about the vax). I just love this board.

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Old 01-29-2006, 12:22 AM
 
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Melaya, there is no way to test for HepB core antigen without a liver biopsy. Unless you've had one, you won't know if you have them or not.

What do your records show? If you are Hep B surface antigen (HBsAg) positive, then you're a carrier. It's also very important to see if they've tested you for e antigen (HBeAg) -- if you're e antigen positive, you're at very high risk of infecting your baby. If you're negative, the risk is much much much much much much lower. If you haven't been tested for this, you should be -- it will help you make an informed decision about what to do.
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Old 01-29-2006, 01:00 AM
 
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They tested her for e antigen which is negative.

In this country, the lab handbook state that e antigent is equivalent to core antigen. If you had read the whole thread you would have seen that all that was covered and more besides.,....

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Old 01-29-2006, 01:03 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melaya
Thanks, now I need to harass Long Island about how to get out of this vax and not go to jail. What kind of doctor would know how much Vitamin C I can safely take with out harming the baby? I have some sort of immune problem. They've never been able to diagnose it, but I get super high fevers, I'm always cold, often nauseas, my joints ache terribly, I'm always tired, ect. So somethings up that probably has nothing to do with the Hep B. Thanks again for the help everyone. I got lots more to read (mostly curiosity now, I've kind of already made up my mind about the vax). I just love this board.
I wouldn't approach it that way. I'd take enough vitamin C to meet my needs, and that will hopefully meet the baby's needs to. Why do you think Vitamin C would harm the baby?

I think you need to find a doctor who actually knows something about immunology and endocrinology. I think you need your immune system fully sussed out as well as your thyroid checked and maybe a few other things.

The joint issue could be. Have they done rheumatoid factors or hep b antigen/antibody complexes?

“I want to sell drugs to everyone. I want to sell drugs to healthy people. I want drugs to sell like chewing gum.” former Merck CEO, Henry Gadsden

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Old 01-29-2006, 01:18 AM
 
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This is what I've found so far. Will search more tomorrow.

Washington State
Neglect § 26.44.020

• Abuse or neglect means the negligent treatment of a child by any person under circumstances that indicate that the child’s health, welfare, and safety are harmed.
• Negligent treatment or maltreatment means an act or omission that evidences a serious disregard of consequences of such magnitude as to constitute a clear and present danger to the child’s health, welfare, and safety.


Exceptions §§ 26.44.015; 26.44.020

• This chapter shall not be construed to authorize interference with child-raising practices, including reasonable parental discipline, which are not injurious to the child's health, welfare, and safety.
• Nothing in this chapter may be used to prohibit the reasonable use of corporal punishment as a means of discipline.
A person who is being furnished Christian Science treatment by a duly accredited Christian Science practitioner will not be considered, for that reason alone, a neglected person for the purposes of this chapter.
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Old 01-29-2006, 01:28 AM
 
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Here is the perinatal hepatitis b case report form for WA:
http://www.doh.wa.gov/cfh/immunize/d...ts/348-030.pdf

Take a look at the bottom at the "case closed" section.
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Old 01-29-2006, 01:33 AM
 
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Just an FYI. See page 3 (Guidelines):

http://www.doh.wa.gov/cfh/immunize/d...cProviders.pdf
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Old 01-29-2006, 03:00 PM
 
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[double post]
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Old 01-29-2006, 03:02 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtezuma Tuatara
They tested her for e antigen which is negative.
Did I miss a post somewhere? From what I see, Melaya says only that she has "no core antigens". She may be saying that because core antigens are not mentioned on her lab results -- no test for them is available.

E antigen and core antigen are different proteins that are encoded by separate parts of the HBV genome. They both indicate actively replicating virus (and therefore the potential to infect others). They're equivalent only in their significance. I'm reluctant to assume that "no core antigens" means that she has no e antigens either. This website explains the antibodies and antigens pretty well.

Melaya, what you need is a recent test that gives your e antigen and antibody results, and potentially an HBV viral load as well -- that should give you some perspective on your likelihood of passing this on to your child, and it's important information for you to have about your own health as well.
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Old 01-29-2006, 03:45 PM
 
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When are you due?
If I were you, I think I'd do whatever it took to hook up with a really, really good immunologist, and get tested again now and again closer to your due date.

I've spent a while reading about it this morning, and it seems that mainstream thinking tends to assume that the immune globulin prevents initial infection, and the vax is there to prevent later transmission.
Although that 2002 study Apricot posted seems to imply that the vax works fairly well to prevent initial transmission, too.

Here's a good site I found that breaks it all down well.
http://www.labtestsonline.org/unders...is_b/test.html

I'm not sure, but I have a bad feeling that a lot of the really useful answers that would make this all black and white are going to involve factors that haven't been studied before.
Like, I'm wondering if you're HBeAg negative now, what are the chances you'll become positive closer to your due date?
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