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#31 of 48 Old 08-18-2003, 09:57 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'll be working on a reply later when I have more time. I have to just clarify something: that quote from me that your second-to-last post gives is NOT MY CONCLUSIONS OR MY ASSUPTIONS.

I'm sorry if it wasn't clear I was playing devil's advocate in a sense. thw whole statement was a question.. i must go now. dd needs me.

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#32 of 48 Old 08-19-2003, 04:34 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Talk about grumpy. I've worked all night, literally, putting together a response and I lost the whole thing.

Look, you misunderstood me. It happens in text-only communication. And you're not the first one to discover my bad habit of posting questions as statements. My fault. I only wish you'd taken the time to ask me for clarification before spending your time and energy writing a reply that wasn't necessary b/c I don't disagree with you where you thought I did. There was no need to rail on "people like me" - my degrees, my profession, or my colleagues.

I need to put an end to this thread. I never asked for, nor expected, the amount of time you put into your posts. I'm not worth getting stressed out over. And I have used up all my precious free time and more for three nights in a row for this, and it has to end for me.

You've convinced me of many points: measles was never an issue in the first place, and certainly isn't one now. I feel the same way about the other "nuisance illnesses". The risks, even if small, of adverse effects from the vax outweigh the risks otherwise. This has given me the confidence to delay MMR for the foreseeable future. In the meantime, I'll continue to do research on my own. (damn, I'd written a much longer explanation of this that I think you'd have really enjoyed reading but it's gone into cyberspace and I am too exhausted to try and recall it all).

I got what I came here for. A good understanding of the anti-vax standpoints. You've pointed me in the right direction, armed me with the right questions, and I think I can take it from here. I'm very very grateful to you. I don't, and won't, agree with you on everything and I'm not even going to waste my time with a rebuttal of those points b/c they are really not important to the discussion at hand and again, I simply don't have the time or energy. But I hope you might at least take some pleasure in my decision, made with confidence, to hold off on MMR. We won't be getting varicella vax either, btw.

I do have to say, your comments about degrees and scientists and the medical profession were hurtful. I understand in your line of work how one could become soured to all that, but try to remember that corruption and greed and deceit exist in all human endeavours, be it clergy, garbage men, charitable organizations, government, or politics. It didn't take "courage" for me to come here and ask questions. That's what I was trained to do. And while I've come down on your side, at least with respect to my original question (do I really need to give MMR?), that doesn't mean my faith in science has been shattered. I don't find human fallability to be all that surprising.

so goodnight, and goodbye, at least for this thread! thanks again.

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#33 of 48 Old 08-19-2003, 12:53 PM - Thread Starter
 
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So here I find myself, drawn back to my keyboard, at a ridiculously early time in the am (for me), given I was up ridiculously late last night. I can't get this issue out of my head (nor the loss of a really good post). Maybe I need to be vaccinated against keyboard diarrhea, whattaya think?

I PM'd you to clarify the lack of clarity in my earlier post.

What I really wanted to post here was a lengthier explanation of why I came to the conclusions I did, b/c I think that's helpful to others who might be following this (if they're all not asleep by now, lol).

Vaxes, medicines, surgeries...all these medical procedures come with risks. Every time we partake in one of these we must weigh the risks and benefits. The question any parent should first ask themselves is whether the risk of getting the vaccine outweighs the risks of not. Given the currently low risks, the answer for all of them is "not really".

But then I need to get ethical and ask myself if I'm just taking advantage of everyone else getting vaxed. I'm now convinced that I'm not. In the few years prior to introduction of the vax, the rate of measles was about 440,000 and of those, about 500 died. 500 people in a country of how many million in those days? That's a pretty slim chance. Add to that the questions about those 500 people: were they sick? premature babies fed inadequate formula? immunocompromised individuals? And that lessens the chances of my healthy, breastfed baby getting it even were she transported back to 1961. So no, I don't feel bad about it. I don't think measles was ever the big problem they made it out to be.

Chicken pox is an even better example b/c, according to one site, there are only 100 deaths from chicken pox, 90% of which are "children" and most of those "healthy" beforehand. Even if we accept they were healthy, we are talking about 70 or 80 (generously) in a population of half a billion people. As a scientist VERY familiar with the concept of biovariability, these people almost *certainly* have something going on with them that distinguishes them from the average joe. They are not, by definition, "normal".

These statistics simply do not warrant a campaign to "eradicate the disease". And if I were suffereing from a more serious ailment, research for which is almost totally lacking b/c "not enough people suffer from it", I would be angry beyond belief. What a waste of government money and resources.

Hilary said "what I find surprising is when human failure is then translated into deliberate propaganda".

I don't. It's called "advertising". :LOL

(PS: thanks to goodpapa, too. you contributed alot of time as well and it is appreciated!)

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#34 of 48 Old 08-19-2003, 01:21 PM
 
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piglet,

I just wanted to say that there is something in the air about threads taking weird turns. I got caught in a riptide on TAO thread. I never expected the turns it took. Then there was one in Spiritual that took odd turns.

I swear it is in the air.


anyway, Piglet, I'm glad you have done the research you needed and come to some answers about MMR et al.

personal note, off topic warning...

I've said this before, I started researching when pregnant but really kicked it up when ds was born. my son was born 7-12-01. therefore his 2 month well baby visit was the week of, drum rolll...... september 11, 2001. I had cascading hormones on the morning of the 11th, gee, I wonder why...and right away, the media brought up biological warfare. I was on the road to delaying but my fears with the hormones with my hair falling out, stresss. etc.. I pushed the appontment a couple weeks. I dug in, went to a lecture on vaxes and found my center. My pediatrician is in his 70's. I went to him and said we're delaying. And god bless him, he didn't give us any grief. He made a case for pertussis and hib (as I recall) but then let it go.
I say all that to say that we can research and stuff can happen and it makes us question stuff but then we find our center and of course research. For me, research soothes the beast.

this personal note is so off topic..but just wanted to share it for some odd reason.
I need more coffee.

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#35 of 48 Old 08-19-2003, 02:32 PM
 
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...is having trouble with it's "advertising" campaign.

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=...3-041249-8246r

No WMDs, no smallpox...

...but plenty of dead bodies, and god knows what has happened to the insides of the rest of them.

Here's someone who is getting part of the picture:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/kirkwood/kirkwood31.html

Looks like he's looking for more of it. I gave him a few cents worth, anybody else?


Ray
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#36 of 48 Old 08-21-2003, 05:37 PM
 
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...DRUGS

...JUST SAY NO!!

Drugs at the start, drugs for life:

http://www.namiscc.org/News/2003/Win...atricDrugs.htm


that deafening sound is "the drumbeat" (Trabot's)---

but this time it's our side.


http://www.namiscc.org/News/




Don't just Procreate,

Disseminate!

(mothering.com)



Ray
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#37 of 48 Old 08-21-2003, 08:58 PM
 
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Piglet - You sound stressed and the last thing I want to do is stress you. But my argument for not vaxing hasn't been clearly stated here so I thought I would share it with you.

I don't believe that:
- since these diseases aren't around that my child won't get them
- if other children are vaxd my child will be safe
- if I breastfeed my child will not get sick
- my child will have lifetime immunity if I expose her to the natural disease

The reason I DON'T vax is because I have the resources to deal with any disease my child contracts. I stongly believe that "serious complications" of certain diseases primarily happen because of modern medicine or lack of treatment. That might seem like a contradiction, but it's not if one stops limiting oneself to the idea that treatment = drugs, doctors and hospitalization. I have seen babies get sicker after going to doctors and getting 5 prescriptions and I have seen babies get sicker when a parent refuses any care and prefers to just wait and see.

The only reason we are not vaxing is because if and when my child contracts a vaccine preventable disease I have acupuncturists, holistic practitioners, chiropractors, mainstream pediatricians, herbalists and mothering all lined up to help my child fight the illness.

I do not reccomend that any parent go against western medicine (like not vax'ing) if the parent only has western medicine to turn to when something goes wrong. A modern doc, having prob never seen nor treated a case of polio will most likely attack the illness with every type of antibiotic and immunosuppressant known to man, along with hospitalization, which I think we all agree, opens up an array of possible secondary infections and complications. Overeaction to illness is what I believe causes most "serious complications" or death in childhood illness.

It is my belief (call it a religion) that the body knows how to defeat illness but can only do so when it's system is not being compromised. When you only do things that enhance the immune system and nothing to inhibit the immune response, then most illness can be defeated.

So please do not skip the vax without having some resources to help boost your childs immune system. It's like parents who say they have a cool ped bcuz he doesn't give out antibiotics. Well, what does she recommend in place of antibiotics, just staring at your child until something bad happens?

I guess I should also share that when I was 4, I was paralyzed from the neck down for 6 months and almost died due to my DPT shot. Back then they told my mom that vaccines were safe. They are telling us the same thing today. Why should I believe them?

I really hope this just adds to more thought on the subject and not stress. There is no need to respond, unless you want to ask a question.
Marnica likes this.
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#38 of 48 Old 09-18-2003, 05:46 PM
 
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....here's the whole kit and caboodle (sp?)


Including my son's natural immunity to measles.



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#39 of 48 Old 09-24-2003, 12:49 AM
 
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WOW! I have just skimmed through this thread looking for an answer to a question I had. I didn't see my answer, so I will ask the question now-forgive me if i missed the answer in what has already been written. Why does waiting until my child reaches 2 or older help her with the MMR or any other vaccine? Is it because the immune system has had a chance to mature? My daughter is now 3, and has not had MMR or Varicella. My gut is telling me not to do MMR at all, and i have finally learned to listen to myself after all these years. I am curious though about the age thing. Anybody have a reason?
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#40 of 48 Old 09-24-2003, 05:07 PM
 
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I never thought I would get to the end of this thread. To date, this is the most I've read on the vax issue.
My dd just turned a year. At her 1 yr visit (which was 3 days early), we were told that even if we wanted it, they would not give her MMR until THE DAY of her birthday. As the doc said, somehow, baby's immune system is magically able to handle it then and not before. If I had been more armed I might have asked how they know she CAN handle it.
Anyway, my point is that this thread has really helped me understand the issue. What bothers me the most is that vaxing is so unquestioned and mainstream. Most people just get it because every one else does and that makes it safe. Even me, at dd's 2 month checkup. I knew some people didn't vax, but I figured if it was so bad, there'd be more people not doing it.
We had already decided to delay MMR while I do the research. Now, I see where medicine has gone wrong. I now sense that vaccines are inherently harmful and wrong. I still have more research to do, I still feel uneasy when I think of not vaxing my dd. Then again I feel absolutely sick to my gut when I think of the stuff they injected into my infant.
I signed up for a class on vaccines given by a naturopath, featureing alternatives to vaxing. It's $5, and I think it should be interesting.


Hilary, I would like to apologize for being one of THEM:
"There is a tendency here, for the majority to expect that minority to do their research and thinking for them. I am a lot more worried about the apparent inability of people here to research and think the issues through for themselves, than I am about the issue. "



It's not that I wanted my research done for me, I just found the issue overwhelming, not knowing where to begin. There's so much out there it's hard to know what to believe anymore. I was just asking for help in getting started. This is in regards to a thread I posted awhile ago.
http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...threadid=84010
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#41 of 48 Old 09-26-2003, 08:27 PM
 
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One of the things that convinces me not to vax, more than anything, is that the more I read, the more I see the corruption and lies, just to protect profit.

Dh and I were talking about this last night, about how the tabacco companies knew for years that smoking caused cancer, but heck, they weren't going to admit it. Then there's Ford, with cars that happen to turn over and kill people. They had a major design flaw. Did they recall the cars and refit the tyres (sorry, tires) immediately? Heck, no. Not until they had no choice.

Just looking at who funds the research should be enough to convince people that there is more to the vaccination issue than the health of children.

The Almighty dollar rules.

Stepping out of the comfort zone and doing the research is terrifying. It is immensely time consuming, and increasingly frightening to question the wisdom of those you used to trust. Sometimes, it's easier to take the shots, and pray. I know that I did that with dd#1, becaues I just couldnt get my brain around the issues, and knew I didnt have a good enuogh grasp to convince dh. (Not so now, thankfully )

It is frightening if, like me, you don't have a scientific background, and doubt your ability to really understand the scientific facts. It is difficult to be dismissed by the 'experts' and those with a scientific background, just because you don't share their expertise. It is so hard to stand firm, especially if you are like me, and you read, read, read, trust your instincts, but are not particularly good at regurgitating facts and figures when under pressure!

It's true that you can't expect others to do the research for you, But it's wonderful to have people so willing to share their time and energy with those of us who have so many questions.

I, for one, truly appreciate the few regulars on vaccs, who make this uphill battle with those of us who are less informed.
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#42 of 48 Old 09-26-2003, 09:31 PM
 
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I haven't read any of the other replies. For us the risks are 100%, we watched our 12 month old ds go from totally healthy to soaring high fevers within hours of getting the MMR. He kept that fever for days. When the fevers finally subsided his body was covered in a measles like rash. He had just started walking right before that shot, he was so sick he had to learn how all over again when he did get "well" (nearly 2 weeks later). 2-3 weeks later he was starting to walk again, he got a cold, it didn't go away, just before Christmas that year he was in the ER with bacterial pneumonia. A couple weeks after he recovered once again he got a cold, he was sick for a couple weeks with that. He didn't *stay* healthy all winter that year. Any bug he was around he caught, he couldn't defend himself. He didn't officially start walking til February.

That winter I began reading about vaxes, we've never vaxed a kid again.
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#43 of 48 Old 10-10-2003, 09:12 AM
 
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...in the gut of these poor children, but never in their spinal fluid.


http://infobrix.yellowbrix.com/pages...id=42342181&ID
=infobrix&scategory=The+Iraq+Situation&



No more Child Sacrifice!



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#44 of 48 Old 01-27-2004, 10:26 AM
 
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....for any and all newbies.

Highlight on our present day epidemic:


http://www.namiscc.org/News/2003/Win...atricDrugs.htm


Food, Sacred Food,


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#45 of 48 Old 01-31-2004, 02:50 PM
 
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details.

edit to provide link:

This is one of the hardest to find pages at the cdc… the way that I actually found this page was by accident. I had called the CDC to find out about hib cases and I got a doctor and he sent me to this page…

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/mmwr_wk.html

if you download the current issue it gives you the most uptodate stat that the cdc has on the reportable diseases by the way, the stats are at the end of the document. Anyway, I would start there first.


But just to give you an idea:
Here are the hard numbers for 2003. This is what I found for the last week of the year:

Total reported cases to the cdc for entire year of 2003:
plug in for the last week of 2003-to get the total. They now have the postings for 2004, which of course aren't much...

Disease Cases

Diptheria 1
Measles 41
Mumps 186
Rubella 7
Congenital rubella 0
Tetanus 14
Hib (under 5)
Sero b-20
Non sero b-80
Unknown b-178


Out of a population of 280 million people in the united states!





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#46 of 48 Old 01-31-2004, 05:10 PM
 
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....we can add my son's case of measles to that.

The only problem with it showing up as a stat. was that my progressive physician refused to give a written diagnosis. He didn't want the attention from "Them."


Ray
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#47 of 48 Old 01-31-2004, 06:41 PM
 
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Sure, that is true, ray.

but even if the cdc is only getting one tenth of the real cases and I'm sure they say that their numbers are closer than that..but lets just say even if the numbers are one tenth..

then that would mean there were 410 cases of measles which again out of 280 million people is not much....

frankly, I wouldn't worry if it was 4,100 cases out of 280 million.

I also am older and remember when measles was a childhood disease much more prevelant ...and even then I still didn't get them. and when kids did they missed a week of school. the end.

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#48 of 48 Old 05-09-2004, 04:08 PM
 
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I thought this thread might be of interest to this thread..if that makes sense...

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=142148

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