convince me to skip MMR - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 48 Old 08-10-2003, 03:14 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm going to start off by saying that not vaccinating my child lies WAAAAY outside my comfort zone. I haven't had a chance to research this issue to the depth I'd like, and being educated within the health sciences system I feel as though I'm going against a deep grain of core beliefs I've always held.

My DD has been vaxed (except the Hep B, which we declined b/c I felt she was too young at 2 days old!!). But now at 1 yr old it's time for MMR. We move around alot and dont' have a steady doctor, so nobody to bug us about this. I just haven't gotten around to going to a doc for it.

I am really wondering why I need to do this. I had mumps as a kid and it was NBD. I do know that it is alot harder in an adult (my mother had it as an adult). Same with measles. I don't know much about rubella except I know someone on this board was dealing with it and it seemed again to be not such a big deal.

Sooo....I want you guys to convince me. Give me some good links (CDC, etc) that a scientist like myself can "buy". And tell me a bit about the history of this vax (did we get it as kids in the early 70's? I don't think so).

I don't want to do this vax, but I'm a bit scared of going so against the grain...

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#2 of 48 Old 08-10-2003, 03:27 PM
 
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This is the vaccine I've been focusing my study on lately too, as my DS is now 15 months and I want to know why I feel strongly that I should at least delay it. The more I read about vaccines, I feel inclined to delay them all until at least age two. But I'm sure the other very knowledgeable ladies here can provide you with more concrete links and info.

For me, I have looked at the incidence of Measles, Mumps, and Rubella in my state. In 2002 there were 0 cases of Measles, 1 case of Mumps, and 0 cases of Rubella. I think the Mumps was in a 5-10 year old child, but can't remember for sure. That is my first line of reasoning I plan to give the doctor if she asks. I've also done some reading about how the disease works -- ie. what the symptoms are, what the complications are, effective ways to treat it. I've decided that, besides chicken pox, these diseases are the least of all the "vaccine preventable diseases" that I would worry about my child getting.

Oh, and I was born in 1974 and WAS vaccinated with MMR. My mom was kind enough to save my immunization record and give it to me when I got married, so I know. I believe the vax started in 1963, if I remember my facts right. Again, I'm sure the ladies here will be more helpful, but that's my input.

Outta time! Good luck, Piglet.
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#3 of 48 Old 08-10-2003, 03:38 PM
 
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well, my one little piddly bit of advice is to read the package insert (you can do that online, too). when i finally got to read the damn thing, i realized why i had an adverse reaction to it. the mmr, along with some other vaxes, contains neomycin. i am a person who is deathly allergic to most antibiotics, and it's a family thing, so i have to assume my dd also has that tendency because the risk is too great to expose her to antibiotics to test the theory.
anyway, i talked to the ped about it and he said no way would he let my dd get that shot or any other with neomycin in it.
so anyway, check the ingredients. if there's something in there that your family has reacted to, then skip it.
otherwise, i'd say just wait a bit since now the recommendations are 15-18 months old to get the mmr not 12 like it used to be.
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#4 of 48 Old 08-10-2003, 03:50 PM
 
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Well, I think most drs now wait until 15mos. My dr said it was safer. Wow.

We just got ds' 2 weeks ago at 2.5 years. I do think it's criminal to give it when they're so young and their immune system isn't as developed.

We gave Vit C 5 days before/after and he was in perfect health.

Anyhoo, the ladies here will give you compelling advice to skip it altogether. Horrid decision to make.
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#5 of 48 Old 08-10-2003, 06:06 PM
 
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Hi Piglet! I am in Vancouver too, and in a regular old Save-On-Foods I found a book published by alive books on alternatives to vaxes (they are also in health food stores). In the Natural Family Living book by Peggy O'Mara there is a great section on vaxes and I think I recall reading that in certain populations 80% of the people who came down with measles were vaxed. Also, for your dd, when she is much older and wants to become a mom herself that may be when she could choose to have the rubella vax (to protect her future unborn babies), if she hasn't had the real illness. I have a son (unvaxed) and want him to have mumps (the real thing, not the vax) before he is an adult (can cause sterility in older males, but not in children). Basically, I guess I am trying to say that these illnesses (measles, mumps, and rubella) are normal illnesses of childhood, but in adulthood can lead to complications. I am also terrified of the potential negatives of the MMR vax. A teenage boy lives down my street and has many disabilities that are unequivocally related to having the vax as a child. I also worked with children with autism, many of whom actually had vaccination poisoning. I have a couple of good books on the topic and maybe could get them to you somehow to borrow and read. Dh works on Venables (off Commercial Dr.). Would it be convenient for you to pick them up there? (If you are interested, of course!) It is a very challenging decision to make, and I only feel confident in my decision now because of the lengthy research I did. Good luck, and please let me know if you are interested in borrowing the books (I think I have three, including the ones I mentioned above -- the third is a great outline of vaxes in general and has info on each of the specific ones too)
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#6 of 48 Old 08-10-2003, 06:36 PM
 
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Just how many cases of all these vax-diseases do we get here in the united states? (by the way, if you are out of the us I recommend you search your country’s online stats)

This is one of the hardest to find pages at the cdc… the way that I actually found this page was by accident. I had called the CDC to find out about hib cases and I got a doctor and he sent me to this page…

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/mmwr_wk.html

if you download the current issue it gives you the most uptodate stat that the cdc has on the reportable diseases by the way, the stats are at the end of the document. Anyway, I would start there first.

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#7 of 48 Old 08-11-2003, 03:34 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks for the link, trabot.

Is there any way to tell whether the cases of certain notifiable diseases occurred in people who were vaccinated for them?

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#8 of 48 Old 08-11-2003, 04:11 AM
 
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piglet, I've wondered that too. I think that if you are up for it, you can call the cdc and ask for the disease department. I believe they are broken up that way... "measles, please." and once you get there, you ask them if they know that stat. I think they would not be comfortable putting that on a link that we could easily find but they still might know it.

But really if you look at those numbers you'll see how low measles, mumps and rubella are...

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#9 of 48 Old 08-11-2003, 04:48 PM
 
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I have pm'd Piglet68 the name of one of the books I used in my research and just thought I should pass it along to others. It is called: "The Vaccine Guide: Making an Informed Choice" and it is written by Randall Neustaedter. I found it to be extremely informative.
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#10 of 48 Old 08-11-2003, 08:24 PM
 
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Piglet,
The link below will give you detailed info about measle cases in the USA on a trimester basis, and it includes whether or not the person was vaccinated and how many times (if known):
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvrd/revb/...les_update_usa

Karin
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#11 of 48 Old 08-11-2003, 08:53 PM
 
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karin,
what an informative link at the cdc...do you know if there are similiar links for the other vac diseases...?

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#12 of 48 Old 08-11-2003, 08:58 PM
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Piglet68, my dd is three days older than yours. I passed on the MMR at her 1 year visit. And this was for three reasons 1) just about every mom I know has had a baby have a bad reaction to this shot - that alone tells me this is NOT a good thing; 2) I read so many things about the link between autism and MMR and true or not, I didn't want to take the chance; and 3) gut instinct told me not to, and I always regret it when I don't follow my gut.

I may re-evaluate at 2 yrs old, but for now, dd is MMR-free. Good luck with your decision.
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#13 of 48 Old 08-11-2003, 10:37 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks you guys! You're wonderful.

Now, last question:

does anybody have a link to data showing negative reactions to the MMR vaccine? what are the statistics (ie. what's the chance DD will have a negative reaction?).

I see from the CDC data that 1/3000 cases of measles in children resulted in serious complications. If the incidence of complications from the vax is significantly higher, then the decision seems to be clear.

TIA!

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#14 of 48 Old 08-12-2003, 01:22 AM
 
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Piglet-
Wouldn't the package insert have the clinical trial statistics in it?

trabot-
I don't know if the CDC files any other reports like that, I just happened to find that one when I was researching the MMR...
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#15 of 48 Old 08-15-2003, 10:55 AM
 
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is a New Alternative "forest" for your examination of "trees"


This is truly the knowledge we need to replace the World Health Organization:


http://www4.dr-rath-foundation.org/N...charchive.html


Time for some homework,

Ray


P.S. Here's info not just about Thimerosal, but, by extension, about the credibility of the Pharmaceutical Industry.

http://www.childscreen.org/geier.pdf



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#16 of 48 Old 08-16-2003, 09:20 AM
 
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Piglet, this vaccine was not around when I was growing up.

It was not considered life threatening to get measles mumps or rubella.

Other vaccines not around when I was growing up,

Hib, Hep B, Prevnar, Chickenpox

The only ones I remember, DPT, polio and smallpox.

My parents only had 1 dose of 1 vaccine before they started school, smallpox.

Today's infants are slated to get up to 40 doses.

Something else that wasn't around when I was growing up, asthma. Oh, it may have been around somewhere, but no where near what you see today. I never heard of it until I got older. Now it seems every other child I know has some form of it.

Vaccines are designed to trick the immune system. It took 30 years before we heard what the measles vaccine is really doing...it's preventing babies from getting the protection they need in the early months since a vaccinated mother cannot pass on the same level of protection as a mom who suffered from natural measles.

I don't think our immune system is so easily tricked. I definitely don't think it's something that they should be experimenting on, with our babies.

Christine
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#17 of 48 Old 08-17-2003, 03:47 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks to all of you for your stories and references. I've been doing as much reading as I can. I'm afraid I'm not yet convinced on many points, though I am still researching the differences between immunity gained through vaccination versus immunity gained through getting these illnesses as a child (and the concern that I'll *want* my child to get them if they aren't vaxed and wonder how to go about ensuring they do, lol).

Quote:
Originally posted by goodpapa
This is truly the knowledge we need to replace the World Health Organization: http://www4.dr-rath-foundation.org/N...charchive.html
Thank you for responding, and for this link. I checked it out, but I'm afraid to report that I didn't find it credible. For just one example, the page called "The Laws of the Pharmaceutical Industry" contained some information that was inaccurate and, in some cases, just patently false.

Unfortunately, once I've read something like that, it just isn't credible to me anymore. I say this not to criticize you in any way, but just to let you and others out there know that this might not be the best website to recommend to people.

Thankfully, thimerisol is not in any vaccines given in Canada. We banned it a few years before the US did.

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#18 of 48 Old 08-17-2003, 04:15 AM
 
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Hi Piglet,
I read the Vaccine Guide that mommabear recommended. Have you read it yet? I found the background on the vaccine industry very interesting. Wonder how much of it is true : Anyway, he recommends that if you are going to get these vaccines, to get them separately. Autism has been known to develop in people who naturally contracted measles & mumps at the same time. My sister actually had a bad reaction to the shot a few years ago when she was planning to TTC. Her hands swelled up & lost feeling & she ended up having to get carpal tunnel surgery in both hands. I don't know if she ever got all the feeling back.
I have decided not to get this vaccine for my kids, mainly because they could have a bad reaction & still end up getting the disease. I would much rather they got them naturally as children. Of course that could be a little difficult if no-one gets them any more because of the vaccine...

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#19 of 48 Old 08-17-2003, 04:58 AM
 
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I'm not a scientist. I'm just a mom. I look at it like this. I can choose on any day to get the vaccine. But once I get it I can't go back and unget it. So NOT getting is my default since it is irreversable.

That said, we are talking about childhood illnesses. Best gotten while young. None of the vaccines last more than (help me here vax smarties!) about a dozen years. So as I understand it the current schedule 'protects' our kids from these illnesses only during the period that they are moderately harmless!!! They start to become succeptable again around puberty (unless they get timely boosters, and unless those work) which is when they are dangerous. Mumps in a sexaully mature male can cause sterilisation, Rubella is a very serious concern for women of child bearing age. I guess when push comes to shove I would rather my child had real, lasting immunity rather than a temporary, chemical one.

Good luck with this important and difficult decision.

Oh, and on athe subject of getting/not getting... I have a dear friend in her 30's who was totally unvaxed. She was required to get the Rubella vax (either for college or for her marriage license, I forget) when in her 20's. She got Rubella and was deathly ill for over a week. She was reported to the CDC.
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#20 of 48 Old 08-17-2003, 09:58 AM
 
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...did you look at any of the numerous studies on the specific page that I linked?

Now your judging the forest without looking at any of the trees.

As far as "credibility" is concerned, practically every day I read of a new medical mistake that has damaged individuals. What happened to HRT?, etc., etc.

Even the medical industry itself admits 100,000 deaths a year due to "mistakes."

"Thankfully, thimerisol is not in any vaccines given in Canada. We banned it a few years before the US did."

I'd kinda like to see proof of this, in as much as it has never been "banned" in the U.S. A recommendation was made, but there was never a recall and reports are saying that its still in the vaccines.

But what about the fact that Thimerosal WAS in the vaccines at any time?? What does that say about the CREDIBILITY of any and all vaccine manufacturers?? What about the other outrageous toxins that these vaccines contain. What about the epidemic of Autism in the U.S? and numerous other chronic maladies that not only can no one explain, but none of these medical organizations even want to look at?


This is the forest that you should have been evaluating before, while you were displaying your knowledge of biochemistry, essentially landing yourself into unknown territory that OBVIOUSLY the pharmaceutical industry should have cleared up BEFORE they devised these clearly experimental products that we are supposed to have injected into the flesh of our children.

"...just to let you and others out there know that this might not be the best website to recommend to people."

How audacious!!


Ray
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#21 of 48 Old 08-17-2003, 10:06 AM
 
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...here's a blueprint for very easy, risk free PERMANENT measles immunity.

The power of the immune system

All parents of non-vaxed children should realize that their children are the ones they don't need to worry about when they get sick. The key is the nutrition that they receive from day one and especially what they get during the illness.

My son is just now finishing his immunity to MEASLES!!

Breastfed since birth (he is now 18 months)

Raised on organic food, an avid eater of my highest quality homemade probiotic (both acidophilus and bifidus including the ambients) yogurt.

He went with my wife to visit his grandmother and on the return flight on both legs my wife had to sit next to a mother and infant who were both extremely ill and coughing continuously. My wife overheard the mother telling her husband that she was seeing a rash on the child.

When I heard this I realized that we were probably in for measles, and 14 days later my son had coughing and runny nose. Fever went to 103.4 back down under 100 back up to 101.5 and finally subsided after 6 days. The rash didn't come until day 8 and has been relatively light (I think due to the strength of his immune system.)

Medicine was lots of my yogurt (it is powerfully antibiotic and antiviral--I have discovered this from my own self-medicating)

1 Tablespoon of cod liver oil /day
about 750 mg of C in a smoothie of blended organic strawberries, bananas, mango and papaya

Except for day 2, my son has been eating and drinking and playing normally.

Do not ask your pediatrician to confirm diagnostically the illness, because then they have to report it and have on record that a child under their supervision is not being vaccinated.

Instead, 2 weeks after the illness, the antibody levels in the blood should be at the highest level, have an IGM blood test done. In as much as the test only confirms the immunity and not the SOURCE of the immunity-- ie, it could be vaccine or illness induced-- it removes that issue from the equation.

Who knows if the child that gave my son measles was vaccinated. I think, probably yes. Remember vaccines are a gamble as far as accomplishing immunity. Individual types of vaccines vary in their effectiveness, and I think even different brands within each type have varying efficacy.

doctors find what they are looking for and if they think kids are being effectively immunized for measles they won't diagnose measles when it happens, and therefore (LOL) there is no measles in the population.

I am in central NC and am trying to form a natural immunity group. If your interested and in the area , email me.


Sincerely,

Ray
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#22 of 48 Old 08-17-2003, 10:10 AM
 
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Yes, it was a wild-type measles virus...
...caught by my son on an airplane from a sick mother and child--the father seemed alright-- who were close by. My wife overheard the mother say to her husband that she was beginning to see a rash. I wasn't there but when my wife told me I had a good idea-- regardless of what the CDC would like us to believe about the availability of diseases that they vaccinate for-- of what was coming.

The fever began exactly 14 days after exposure. Runny nose--wet coughs (not excessive)--- congestion-- as well We consulted the "Prescription for Nutritional Healing" by Phyllis A. Balch, CNC and James F. Balch, M.D. and noticed specifically mention of cod liver oil, and Vit. C with bioflavinoids. Both of which we keep on hand. My son has loved my probiotic yogurt from early on. He is,as well, crazy about a smoothie I make of organic strawberries, mangos, papayas and bananas. Often the yogurt and smoothie go together in a single cup. Apparently bananas have a fiber --inulin -- which promotes the probiotic breeding in the gut. The other fruits have bioflavinoids which enhance the absorption of ascorbic acid (or sometimes calcium ascorbate) in the stomach-- after which (the intestines) it can't be absorbed and is excreted. The C I've been doing for 20 years.

Thanks to Hilary, I now know how significant the cod liver oil was as well-- due to its Vit. A content.

In our house the breastmilk is a given--given and given and given--- to the point that we are going to see a John Pittman, M.D. here in central N.C. (his philosophy works with the body's biochemistry-- not drugs.) to check and make sure that all of the nutrients my wife is putting into our son are not creating any type of deficiency in her body as we begin the process of a second child. I don't know what's going to happen with the breastfeeding as she progresses (the boy is 30 lbs and 36" at 18 mo) through the pregnancy, but my wife will not deny him and he relishes his nursing. I have thought perhaps of using organic, homemade vegetable juices to supply micronutrients, but I'll wait to see what Pittman says.

The rash was a flash (a day and a half), the raised aspect of the bumps really only visible by shining a flashlight across his chest and back. Nothing on his legs or face, no itching, he ate, drank and played normally except for about 5 hours during the height of the fever (103.4) which then was about 103 for about 12 hours.
The rash came 9 days after the onset.

I wish my parents had know what I know when I had my measles in the early 60's. Actually, the only memoryes I have of childhood diseases is being fed crumbs of hamburger when I had mumps.


Let food be your medicine and medicine be your food,
(Hippocrates)

Ray
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#23 of 48 Old 08-17-2003, 10:45 AM
 
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Piglet,

RE:

though I am still researching the differences between immunity gained through vaccination versus immunity gained through getting these illnesses as a child


Increased Susceptibility to Measles in Infants in the United States
Papania M, Baughman A, Lee S, et al.
Pediatrics. 1999;104(5):e59

Women who had the measles vaccine available to them at the time of their pregnancies seem to deliver infants with more susceptibility to measles than mothers who did not have the vaccine available. Those findings, from this CDC study, may help explain the resurgence of measles that was seen in the US between 1989 and 1991.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/419093

Took 30 years to realize the impact of the measles vaccine. Babies are no longer protected in the early months when they are more at risk for complications. Not only that, by taking the virus out of circulation, NO ONE is getting "natural" boosters, making EVERYONE more susceptible.

I shudder to think of what will be discovered over the next 30 years.

Christine
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#24 of 48 Old 08-17-2003, 04:15 PM - Thread Starter
 
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goodpapa: the credibility I'm referring to is not the fact that no system is perfect. certainly mistakes have been made throughout the history of drug development, as they have in any human endeavour. my issue with the Dr. Rath website is not that human errors have been made, but that information is on there which is simply not correct and the result, for someone like myself, is the strong feeling that this is the product of a "conspiracy theorist". Such attitudes turn me off, so I suspect they turn others off, too. I simply wanted to point out that if one is going to hand out links to people searching for info on not vaxing, give them the best!

Hilary, I was not at all taken aback by what you said. You made perfect sense. Believe me, I know that every decision we make as parents has consequences that we must live with. All we can do is hope to stack the odds in our favour, and as you well pointed out, we must be prepared to accept the consequences. I think the only thing that prevents us from beating ourselves to death with guilt is making the decision that feels the very best in your heart of hearts. Only with that kind of assurance and comfort can you later accept you did the best you could and sometimes Life just sucks. If there is any doubt (as I have right now) then it could be disastrous either way. That is why I'm here. I have doubts about giving DD the MMR vaccine, but doubts about why I should not, and I don't want any doubts. Regardless of which decision I make (to give it , or not) I must feel 100% good about the decision.

This is one reason why, at this point in time, my decision is "delay it". I think kama'aina put it best: you can always do it later, but once it's done, it's done. That's why we haven't done it, have no appointment to do it, and have not decided when or if we will. By me saying "I'm not yet convinced on many points" what I meant was, I'm going through this information and I'm not yet convinced.

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#25 of 48 Old 08-17-2003, 05:27 PM
 
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...at least for the meantime we will have "convince(d) (you) to skip MMR." Alot of work went into this temporary reprieve, but I guess, as they say, it's one soul at a time.

You still didn't take a look at the long list of studies evident on the link I posted. Really, do yourself a favor and read about the power of proper nutrition. Our human bodies and chemistry did not spring out of thin air (unless you are a creationist) but are INEXTRICABLY linked, part and parcel of, wholly concomitant with the Natural world from which we feed and sustain ourselves.

How about:
"A Systematic Study of the Effect of Vitamin C Supplementation on the Humoral Immune Response in Ascorbate-Dependent Mammals"
0r:
"Vitamin A deficiency predisposes to Staphylococcus aureus infection"
or:
"Vitamin A supplementation improves macrophage function and bacterial clearance during experimental salmonella infection."
or:
"Dietary Vitamin A intake and the incidence of diarrhea and respiratory infection amon Sudanese children."

Does my son's experience with measles mean absolutely nothing?
Remember that the basis of human knowledge is anecdotal evidence. Without this we would never have survived.

The only time I use the "C" word is when simple fact is ignored, even unexamined, and it's always "they" who are guilty.

Kind of reminds me of the old school anthropologists going out into "primitive" tribes to find human pathology.


How about this one--

"Let food be your medicine and medicine be your food"

That was good ole' Hippocrates.


Ray
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#26 of 48 Old 08-17-2003, 08:39 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I was going to follow my previous post immediately with another addressing the reference that suschi gave (the papania, boughman, et al paper). Excellent stuff and led me to some very useful studies....But then my mother's lovebird decided to make a break for freedom under my watch and after a lengthy search he's not been found.

goodpapa, thanks for understanding: I honestly was not trying to criticize you in any way. and yes, I saw the page with the million links, lol - I would like to go through it when I have some time. I do believe that we are what we eat, to a large extent. Coming from a traditional health sciences education (btw, my doctorate is in Pharmacology), the philosophy you are describing (vitamins, probiotics, etc) is as unfamiliar to me as christianity might be to a lifelong buddhist never exposed to it. They are truly different "religions", a whole new way of looking at health and medicine, and I'm humbled by how much research I'd have to do to get a thorough understanding of that. I'm going to have to temporarily set that aside for the more immediate goal of weighing the pros and cons of vaxing my DD (though I do appreciate they are related).

Hilary, I'll address your post later to try to keep this from being ridiculously long.

I wanted to get to the study by Papania et al. It's fascinating (but not surprising) that babies are more susceptible to measles when Mum has received immunity through vaccination. It's interesting that such babies have a stronger response to vaccines, too. This points to natural immunity being "better" than that induced by vaccines. This is where I'm at today and I'm following that trail.


I have to cut this short..baby calls.....but I'll post back again very soon. A neat talk with DH today and we've definitely decided to delay until school-age. IN the meantime, the resarch contineus..

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#27 of 48 Old 08-17-2003, 09:30 PM
 
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Whoa, Hilary. I think my decision has just been made
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#28 of 48 Old 08-17-2003, 10:32 PM
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Quote:
at this point in time, my decision is "delay it". I think kama'aina put it best: you can always do it later, but once it's done, it's done. That's why we haven't done it, have no appointment to do it, and have not decided when or if we will.
Piglet, ditto. Same here. I'm with your 100%. Couldn't have said it better myself.
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#29 of 48 Old 08-18-2003, 02:23 AM - Thread Starter
 
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goodpapa, I'm finally tackling some of those articles ref'd on Rath's page and some of your other links. Also re-read your story of your son's immunity (one quick question: fortuitous that he got it, but what if one desires natural immunity but can't get measles for trying? is a "measles party" the only answer??).

Hilary, I can't tell you how much I appreciate the time and patience you have shown in your posting to me. When I first came to this forum, I felt like I'd jumped into a discussion that had been going on for years. I am starting from an absolute square one here, and I do appreciate that you have had to send the conversation in reverse many times to get me oriented. (while it seems like a conversation, rather than a thread, I hope this is helping anyone else going through what I am). But I am slowly feeling like I'm getting there...and I so appreciate what you said about "needing strong convictions based on real knowledge". It goes back to what I said earlier: a decision like this, for better or for worse, must be made with 100% confidence in order to prepare for the possibility that a) you were wrong, or b) you were right but ended up in the tiny minority exception for whom even the right choice didn't help. I need to ask questions, and be skeptical, and prod everyone for more info...in order to make my informed decision.

My decision to delay the vax (where me and DH stand right now) is based on the fact that getting these illnesses as a child is basically a mild condition and gives the wonderful bonus of lifelong immunity. However, if she isn't "lucky" enough to get it in the next few years, we'll reconsider getting her the vax when she is school-aged. This also gives me alot more time (whew!) to do the research.

Now, to your last two posts: you mentioned the fact that people seem to assume that an infant's immune system is the same as an adult's. I run across this type of problem all the time in my own research (lack of appropriately age-matched controls). For obvious reasons, it is very difficult to conduct research on infants and people do tend to just extrapolate data from adults to them without consideration of the differences.

I am already of the opinion that infant physiology is significantly different from that of adults (which is why I delayed introduction of solid foods and a major reason why I declined the Hep B vaccine). I also do not need to be convinced of the importance of breastmilk in establishing and maintaining healthy immunity for one's infant, lol, so the ramifications of that simple fact to what you are saying makes perfect sense to me.

Now, where I'm stuck (but keep in mind I'm still reading...lol):

In the old days a mum got measles, passed the immunity on to her baby, baby was protected for about 18 months, then in the next few years gets measles, grows up and the cycle starts over again. But...not everybody got measles. In 1960 there were about 440,000 cases in the US. The people with natural immunity were a minority. If a mum grew up never getting measles, her kid has much higher susceptibility to it. That probably explains why the numbers of babies dying from measles was considered unacceptably high and why they decided measles needed to be eradicated. What can you tell me about my reasoning here? (which not only points to the overall "societal good" of mass vaxes, but to my unvaxed DD's poor chances of getting measles to grant her the precious natural immunity).

In other words, it may be great to get measles when you're young, but most people weren't getting it at all. If one accepts that vaxed kids have a much lower chance of getting measles then unvaxed kids do (even if the failure rate for vaxes is 15%, that still means millions of kids do get immunity), it makes sense that a program of mass vaxing makes measles incidence even tinier and thus those dying of it even fewer in number, and isn't it better that almost everyone has some immunity to it than only a minority having excellent immunity to it? What's the alternative, to have everybody infected with the real thing (mass measles parties?) so that everybody gets the best (ie. natural) immunity to it? :

On another note, I have to point out that I share your opinion of Pharmacists, lol. We pharmacologists usually do. We forever spend our lives in this conversation:

interested person: "so what are you studying at school?"
us, dreading the predicted response: "pharmacology"
them: "oh, so you're going to be a pharmacist!"
us:

A pharmacologist is not the same thing as a pharmacist, though our disciplines do overlap in some areas. We study not just prescription drugs, but drugs, toxins, experimental drugs, drugs only useful as experimental tools, you name it. We work on a basic research level, for the most part. I'm very familiar with how drugs work, how the body handles them, etc. and we're not always particularly concerned with whether they are of any benefit to mankind, but rather are simply fascinated with the study of what they do and what that tells us about how our bodies work. <insert geek emoticon here>

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#30 of 48 Old 08-18-2003, 04:23 PM
 
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...it was wonderful to see your acknowlegement of and appreciation for Hilary's "time and patience." Her genius and compassion are a rare combination in this age. I shudder to think of the tenuous hold these threads have on a meaningful existence with so much reliant upon so few. But I take my luck where I find it, and squirrel it away for the past, present and future.

Measles parties? You betcha !! Only we got lucky with this one. I've started the immunity project for my boy early I believe (one fellow activist in my area thought 18 mo. a little early--but we WERE prepared.)

Mumps, chickenpox? I'll try locally for now, searching more industriously at age 3 (I'd like to be able to talk to him during the process) but if I have trouble finding them I, hopefully, will have enough credibility on these threads to actually get someone to come out with their child's illness or that of a friend (a PM seems safe enough to me). If it can't be done in a feeling of fellowship, I see no reason not to pay, in addition to the cost of travel.

Unfortunately, I was not able to share my son's illness and grant immunity to another child, but I don't know if I would have felt comfortable with it unless I knew that that child was going to receive the full nutritional support that my son did.

This and so many of the logical conclusions to what Hilary so generously explained (ah the power and glory of beautiful rhetoric) are the reasons I feel unable to simple say no to the vax and go on with the rest of my life.

Even those who choose not to vax are still not free of the world that remains.

Life is not our gift---
sharing it is,

Ray
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