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#1 of 44 Old 06-15-2008, 01:48 PM - Thread Starter
 
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ETA-- For anyone coming in late, I'm good. I know folks dont always read through, so I want to say I have the info I need to make a decsion. I thank you all.


We are planning titres first just in case. Although it looks like the info from that isn't always reliable.

Here's a NYT articlle about recent outbreaks. It's not a ton of cases, but it can spread quickly and be a problem for older kids/young adults It looks like there was only one case of a fully vax'd person getting it. We know it's not 100% effective for all, so it doesn't surprise me.

Tell me why or why not measles outbreaks would or wouldn't concern you if you have teens who are out in the world. We already do flax seed oil.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/02/he...tml?ref=health
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#2 of 44 Old 06-15-2008, 01:56 PM
 
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I am considering the MMR for my unvaxed ds when he's 11 or 12. I'm not worried about him getting measles now (5yo), but I would be concerned about it in a teen or adult. Like you, I'd check titres first. Although I'm not sure how reliable that really is.
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#3 of 44 Old 06-15-2008, 01:57 PM
 
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We have and will do the MMR with our kids; they are still very far from teenage years but I thought I would give my take anyway.

Do I FEAR measles? no. I have written about this in the past. I feel fear isn't the right word. I do not fear rip tides while swimming in the ocean; however I know the 'rules' of getting out of them. But I don't find myself cautiously worrying or constantly thinking about them while out there.

The outbreaks don't really concern me as much as they give more support to the reasons we do the vaccine. (to others they will be support to why they DONT)

So, anyway....we do the MMR. Measles is one reason. I feel the measles vax is a good idea for our family because the vaccine is highly effective and the disease is highly infectious....we travel and are around travelers a lot, and, as the recent outbreaks show us, measles can be brought here and spread. We feel there are dangerous side effects which are rare but present. We don't believe the MMR is linked to autism; we researched this in depth and see no connection.

So, we are faced with that fact that we can prevent measles easily and with good confidence by getting the vaccine. we have decided, for our family, this is a good idea. So we do it.

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#4 of 44 Old 06-15-2008, 02:01 PM - Thread Starter
 
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We are leaning 99.99%. buit as always, one worries. I mostly want to come clean about it. lol I have said I didn't vax little children, so I guess I want to be open about this. I know as a family our health has benefitted from a society where the children have not been exposed to serious diseases, where we have clean water and good food etc.

ETA- we are around travelors lots as well. We live in a tourist area, plus our friends travel.
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#5 of 44 Old 06-15-2008, 02:27 PM
 
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I am agonizing over this decision right now with my 20 month old dd. She has had some health issues which we don't fully understand yet. Seizure like episodes on several occasions (4 months, 9 months & 14 months) and some food allergies. She has not received ANY vaccinations because I have honestly just been too scared of what would happen to her.

Now we have a measles outbreak in the county right next to us. Ten people confirmed as of last week. We homeschool and aren't out in the mix, but I am still so worried. I had my pedi order the single measles vax, but I know that it might not be any safer for my dd. But what is worse? Her catching the measles or her reaction to the vax?? I still feel like something is going to happen to her if I vax. I am petrified.

I am also scared of all these outbreaks. What if she does get the measles? Of course the pedi is all for the vax. I don't know what to do at this point. I change my mind every five minutes. I just don't want anything to happen to my dd.
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#6 of 44 Old 06-15-2008, 04:42 PM
 
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I had measles when I was 13; I don't remember it being any big deal, just a fever and some spots, really. Everything I've seen from Mendelsohn, Tenpenny, etc leaves me feeling like measles is nothing to fear unless you're already immunocompromised or live in conditions of abject poverty; so, living in a developed nation and having access to clean water and fresh food, I don't see any reason to fear the disease.

Mendelsohn, in fact, says that the risks of the vaccine far outweigh the risks of the disease. From How to Raise a Healthy Child: "I would consider the risks associated with measles vaccine unacceptable even if there were convincing evidence that the vaccine works. There isn't." Also from the same book, he says that according to the WHO, the chances are about 15 times greater that measles will be contracted by those who have been vaccinated for it than by those who haven't.
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#7 of 44 Old 06-15-2008, 05:12 PM - Thread Starter
 
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[
Mendelsohn, in fact, says that the risks of the vaccine far outweigh the risks of the disease. From How to Raise a Healthy Child: "I would consider the risks associated with measles vaccine unacceptable even if there were convincing evidence that the vaccine works. There isn't." Also from the same book, he says that according to the WHO, the chances are about 15 times greater that measles will be contracted by those who have been vaccinated for it than by those who haven't.[/COLOR][/FONT]
I have that book, and it's really old, so I am concerned about outdated statistics as I make 21st century decisions about my teens. Mendelsohn died in 1988 or 1989 or something, before my first child was born.

I don't find anywhere on the WHO website that gives the 15 > number, either. Anyone?

I admt that one the reasons this one scares me is becuase one of my old friends became alomst totally deaf when she got measles as an older kid. She was your basic upper middle class healthy child.

Yet I am feeling like the disease at this age is worse than the vax itself.
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#8 of 44 Old 06-15-2008, 05:37 PM
 
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Sorry if this is a repeat, I don't have time to read all the replies - but the MMR vaccine could cause life long rheumatism. I would not go that route.

From what I've read, measles is not that dangerous for teens. And for sure not for kids that are still younger.
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#9 of 44 Old 06-15-2008, 05:58 PM
 
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I have that book, and it's really old, so I am concerned about outdated statistics as I make 21st century decisions about my teens. Mendelsohn died in 1988 or 1989 or something, before my first child was born.

I don't find anywhere on the WHO website that gives the 15 > number, either. Anyone?

I admt that one the reasons this one scares me is becuase one of my old friends became alomst totally deaf when she got measles as an older kid. She was your basic upper middle class healthy child. Interestingly, she married an an MD who was also an accupunturist and they didn't vax their own kids.

Yet I am feeling like the disease at this age is worse than the vax itself.
Yes, that book is "old" and the stats are obviously outdated, but a lot of the information still applies. That book is a treasure, regardless of it's age.

Did you friend receive treatment for the measles back in the day? Sometimes the treatment(s) were as bad or worse than the diseases.
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#10 of 44 Old 06-15-2008, 06:05 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Yes, that book is "old" and the stats are obviously outdated, but a lot of the information still applies. That book is a treasure, regardless of it's age.

Did you friend receive treatment for the measles back in the day? Sometimes the treatment(s) were as bad or worse than the diseases.
(Edited for TMI) They didn't do any conventional meds. Maybe if they had? Do you know what treatments would be bad? This would have been in the 1970's.

I am not saying the book is without any value. But it doesn't offer any current stats for my current needs.
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#11 of 44 Old 06-15-2008, 06:09 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Sorry if this is a repeat, I don't have time to read all the replies - but the MMR vaccine could cause life long rheumatism. I would not go that route.

From what I've read, measles is not that dangerous for teens. And for sure not for kids that are still younger.
Where is this reading? I would like to read it. And what does 'not that dangerous' mean?
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#12 of 44 Old 06-15-2008, 06:20 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I
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#13 of 44 Old 06-15-2008, 06:36 PM
 
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(Edited for TMI) They didn't do any conventional meds. Maybe if they had? Do you know what treatments would be bad? This would have been in the 1970's.

I am not saying the book is without any value. But it doesn't offer any current stats for my current needs.
Depends upon what they might have given. Did she have a typical case, or any other factors like a secondary bacterial infection that they may have treated with antibiotics? Did they give her any antipyretics to bring down the fever? This is where it becomes really important to get the full case history and any other factors that might have contributed to your friend's hearing loss.

Also...was she vaxed for it? That's a crucial bit of info.
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#14 of 44 Old 06-15-2008, 06:47 PM - Thread Starter
 
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treated with antibiotics? Did they give her any antipyretics to bring down the fever? This is where it becomes really important to get the full case history and any other factors that might have contributed to your friend's hearing loss.

Also...was she vaxed for it? That's a crucial bit of info.
She was not vax'd, as she had an unconventional family. I hate to keep talking about it, I haven't even asked her if I could. She was a healthy upper (very upper) middle class child, she had access to good food etc. She was an unvax'd healthy person who a bad outcome after contracting measles. Maybe her parents did everything right, maybe they did something not quite right. Maybe their timing was off for whatever they did.

Sometimes bad things happen, which is one of my concerns in vaxing, and in not vaxing older children for measles. I was willing to take certain risks when the children were smaller that no longer seem appropraite for older kids.
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#15 of 44 Old 06-15-2008, 07:25 PM
 
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There are several women that have posted on this board that have developed rheumatoid arthritis from post-partum MMRs and it has been implicated in juvenile rheumatoid arthritis. The risk of the vaccines does not end with early childhood.

Here is the information on the Switzerland Measles outbreak:

http://www.eurosurveillance.org/ew/2007/070726.asp

483 cases total for November 2006- July 2007.


Quote:
Six percent of the 445 cases for whom a detailed questionnaire had been submitted were vaccinated against measles (18 with one dose and nine with two doses), 87% were unvaccinated, and the vaccination status of the remaining 7% was unknown. There were 43 cases (10%) requiring hospitalization. Among 445 cases for whom information about complications was available, four cases were reported with encephalitis (1%), all among children, 29 cases with pneumonia (7%, median age 10 years), and 31 cases with otitis media [earache](7%). No deaths were reported.
http://www.eurosurveillance.org/edit...8/080221_1.asp
Switzerland Measles Outbreak - From Nov 2006 to Feb 2008:

"1405 cases
1319 cases for which detailed information available**

Hospitalizations** 104 -- 7.9%
Pneumonia** 63 -- 4.8%
Otitis Media (ear aches)** 62 -- 4.7%
Encephalitis** 6 -- 0.5%

The proportion of vaccinated patients has been low for all ages (Figure 4). There were 104 cases (8% of 1,319 cases for whom information about hospitalisation and complications were available) who required hospitalisation. Six cases were reported with encephalitis or suspicion of encephalitis (0.5%), all among children. No deaths have been reported." The average age is eleven.[/quote]

http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/table.htm
III. Measles, mumps and rubella virus-containing vaccines in any combination (e.g., MMR, MR, M, R)
A. Anaphylaxis or anaphylactic shock 1
0-4 hours
B. Encephalopathy (or encephalitis) 2 5-15 days C. Any acute complication or sequela (including death) of above events 4 Not applicable

"It should be a rule in all prophylactic work that no harm should ever be unnecessarily inflicted on a healthy person (Sir Graham Wilson, The Hazards of Immunization, 1967)."
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#16 of 44 Old 06-15-2008, 08:18 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Where can I find information the the percentage of people who get the MMR vax as older children or adults and contract RA? I've been looking for such numbers and I can't find anything.

The Swiss findings are profound. That's a significant percentage of folks with complications. I'd like to weigh that against MMR -caused RA stats.
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#17 of 44 Old 06-15-2008, 08:30 PM
 
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According to the WHO 2006 Measles Bulletin , the diagnosis of measles is very unreliable unless it is done using blood work, and the problem is not limited to Africa. So, to begin with, I think measles is probably over-reported. There is no question, however, that it can be a very serious disease, but it HAS to find that systemic weakness in order for this to be the case - how else could it be that it is so rarely serious for so many? Even wealthy people can have nutrient deficiencies and not know it - in diagnosing scurvy doctors found that people could appear quite hale and healthy and be on death's door from malnutrition.

Granted, your children could be among the few that are susceptible. As long as you are aware of what their specific nutritional needs are, and keep the C and A up, you are reducing that susceptibility in practice.

As for traveling, if you find that your lifestyle is MORE likely to expose you to measles, then your kids are more likely to have wild-type exposure on a regular basis!
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#18 of 44 Old 06-15-2008, 08:59 PM - Thread Starter
 
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According to the WHO 2006 Measles Bulletin , the diagnosis of measles is very unreliable unless it is done using blood work, and the problem is not limited to Africa. So, to begin with, I think measles is probably over-reported. There is no question, however, that it can be a very serious disease, but it HAS to find that systemic weakness in order for this to be the case - how else could it be that it is so rarely serious for so many?

What makes you think measles is over reported? I get that it's hard to track measles in Africa, but we are not facing the same challenges about that here in the US

It seems to be serious in the people who contract it. The Swiss findings (above) seem significant to me.
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#19 of 44 Old 06-15-2008, 09:26 PM
 
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It seems to be serious in the people who contract it. The Swiss findings (above) seem significant to me.
Your conclusion from the Swiss stats is that it is serious in the people who contract it? That is not usually the reaction that posting gets. Yes, some of the one thousand three hundred and nineteen cases with reported complications were serious complications, but that seems to me to be small in comparison with the size of the outbreak.

There were one thousand, four hundred and five cases. The stats on complications were from one thousand, three hundred and nineteen cases.

104 people out of
one thousand, three hundred and nineteen cases were hospitalized. We don't know anything about these people; their age (they could all be infants and elderly), their state of health, what treatment they had received... I expect that these hospitalizations overlap with some of the other complications like Pneumonia (63) and Encephalitis (6). Then there are the 62 people with ear aches...

I think measles is under reported in the US. How can a Dr diagnose it if he believe that the fever and rash you developed 11 days post vaccination "is just some virus" or that "since you had the MMR it can't be measles; it must just be some random virus."

"It should be a rule in all prophylactic work that no harm should ever be unnecessarily inflicted on a healthy person (Sir Graham Wilson, The Hazards of Immunization, 1967)."
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#20 of 44 Old 06-15-2008, 09:30 PM
 
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What makes you think measles is over reported?
Isn't that in that link, that the WHO needs to open clinics everywhere because the diagnoses are all wrong? I guess I need to read it again.

Quote:
From January – December 2005, 2717 cases (22% of all tested serologically) have been lab
confirmed and 540 cases have been confirmed by epidemiologic linkage, bringing the total
number of confirmed measles cases to 3257. Fifteen of the 29 countries (52%) have less than
10% of their investigated cases becoming serologically positive for measles. Cameroon, Benin,
Burkina Faso, Niger, Angola and South Africa have had more than 30% lab confirmed measles
cases, mainly as a result of outbreaks.
The rate of measles confirmed cases for the Region is 0.7
per 100,000 population under case based surveillance. The rate ranges from 0 for most countries
to 3.3 per 100,000 in Cameroon. Seventeen of the 29 countries (59%) have confirmed measles
incidence rates below 0.5 per 100,000 population. (See figure 1)
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#21 of 44 Old 06-15-2008, 10:37 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Isn't that in that link, that the WHO needs to open clinics everywhere because the diagnoses are all wrong? I guess I need to read it again.

It just seems their resources are limited.
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#22 of 44 Old 06-16-2008, 01:14 AM
 
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Measles cases in the US for 2008:

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5718a5.htm
74 confirmed cases
14 hospitalizations
0 reported complications
0 deaths

MMR reactions reported to VAERS in 2008:
http://www.medalerts.org/vaersdb/fin...adsheet+format
657 total adverse events reported
220 emergency room visits
20 hospitalizations
3 life-threatening reactions
1 death
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#23 of 44 Old 06-16-2008, 01:22 AM
 
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Measles cases in the US for 2008:

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5718a5.htm
74 confirmed cases
14 hospitalizations
0 reported complications
0 deaths

MMR reactions reported to VAERS in 2008:
http://www.medalerts.org/vaersdb/fin...adsheet+format
657 total adverse events reported
220 emergency room visits
20 hospitalizations
3 life-threatening reactions
1 death
Wow seems to me that those stats clearly show me I made the right choce.

 
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#24 of 44 Old 06-16-2008, 09:43 AM
 
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It seems to be serious in the people who contract it. The Swiss findings (above) seem significant to me.
How is that? There was not one death, not one lasting complication.
Unlike RA which can make a life totally miserable.

Most of the kids in Switzerland who get measles is by parents' choice. They hold measles parties. Same in Austria and The Netherlands. Of course I am sure some of the kids who got measles did not attend a measles party.

I don't think anyone would consider it serious. Believe me, the papers over here in the EU would have had a field day, had that been the case.
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It doesn't matter WHY the numbers are wrong; the point is that they are wrong. The traditional diagnostic criteria for measles can give false positives, and I don't think most doctors order the bloodwork.
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#26 of 44 Old 06-16-2008, 10:18 AM
 
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My daughter isn't old enough to consider the MMR yet, but this old CDC article is really what tipped me onto the no-MMR side of the debate.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pic...1&blobtype=pdf

"For centuries the measles virus has maintained a remarkably stable ecological relationship with man. The clinical disease is a characteristic syndrome of notable constancy and only moderate severity. Complications are
infrequent, and, with adequate medical care, fatality is rare.
Susceptibility to the disease after the waning of maternal immunity is universal; immunity following recovery is solid and lifelong in duration."

Granted, the article goes on to discuss how they're going to eradicate measles with the vaccine, which is mind blowing to me since they start the article saying how it's not a big deal at all and that you get lifelong immunity once you have it. But anyway. It's just amazing to me how the CDC was saying how mild the disease is in '67 and then all of a sudden today it's something everyone lives in fear over. Just seems weird to me.
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#27 of 44 Old 06-16-2008, 10:44 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I appreciate all the thoughts. Thanks for keeping it calm, too.


http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5718a5.htm
74 confirmed cases
14 hospitalizations
0 reported complications
0 deaths


Do you know where it says there were no complications? And this is the first time I've seen where more unvax'd people (and in the NYT article) got measles than vax'd. That's interesintg.

The other site includes baby/toddler reactions & doesn't separate toddler vax from adult vax. I need that info. Is it there and I just don't see it? The 664 figure based is how many MMRs given in a year, and I am thinking it's a couple of million? Some of those reactions, too, didn't result in long- lasting complications.

I am trying to figure out risk factors...664 Vs 2 million or 14 Vs 74. Temporary complications Vs long tasting ones etc.

Measles in small children is not the same as measles in an adult. That's my concern. Try to bear with me as I tweak this out. And as you post, please remember I am not the enemy.

I wish I could get my hands MMR and RA stats.
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#28 of 44 Old 06-16-2008, 11:00 AM
 
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Measles in small children is not the same as measles in an adult. That's my concern. Try to bear with me as I tweak this out. And as you post, please remember I am not the enemy.

Your child can make her own decision as an adult.

Adult can react badly to the vaccine; adults can react badly to the wild virus . At least you can attempt to treat the latter.

"It should be a rule in all prophylactic work that no harm should ever be unnecessarily inflicted on a healthy person (Sir Graham Wilson, The Hazards of Immunization, 1967)."
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#29 of 44 Old 06-16-2008, 11:01 AM - Thread Starter
 
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[QUOTE=Gitti;11479862]How is that? There was not one death, not one lasting complication.
Unlike RA which can make a life totally miserable.

Most of the kids in Switzerland who get measles is by parents' choice. They hold measles parties. Same in Austria and The Netherlands. Of course I am sure some of the kids who got measles did not attend a measles party.

QUOTE]

I am talking about adult and teen risks. I was ok with the kid risk. I am not talking about kids.
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#30 of 44 Old 06-16-2008, 11:10 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Your child can make her own decision as an adult.

Adult can react badly to the vaccine; adults can react badly to the wild virus . At least you can attempt to treat the latter.


You're talking about a parenting choice-- to let it go until they are legal adults, and I am trying to make what I think is a medical decision for minors.
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