Do you think anything can be done? (long. sorry!) - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
#1 of 19 Old 08-16-2010, 08:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
sarabella's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 13
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
My husband and I have been married for 10 years- I can say that I've been at some level of unhapppy for over half of that time. I think that when it comes down to it, we are 2 very, very different people. He is a different nationality than I- we met while I was on vacation, and moved in together. We were engaged a year after we met, and married a year after that. A year after THAT, I was pregnant with my first child, and moved to a foreign country (his country) where we've lived ever since. I had an extremely, extremely difficult time of it the first couple of years- had PPD, was desperately homesick (still am) and he tried everything he could do to make me happy. I have never felt happy in this country, have made very few friends (lots of acquaintances- but expat communities are so transient. As soon as you become close to someone- they move!) but have tried to dive in for the sake of my children ( we have 2 now). I created my own company, am active in the American community, keep the kids involved in both culture's activities- etc... all this to say that I haven't spent the past decade moping around.
Over the years, my husband and I have grown further and further apart. We haven't been intimate since my daughter was conceived (she's 5) and it's driven a searing wedge between us. Back when we DID talk about it- his opinion was that I am cold to him when he approaches me, so he shuts me out. My opinion was that he is pretty cold and unemotional anyway, and that if he can switch "it" on when HE wants affection, why can't he switch it on when I want affection?(theres a lot more to it, but thats the type of conflict we're dealing with) Anyway, these are old, old arguments that we haven't had in years- now we barely speak at all. Literally. When we do speak, its to tell the children something. When we speak together, it explodes into an argument within 5 minutes (even talking about mundane, everyday subjects). Both of us are so deeply, deeply miserable, but I feel stuck. I hate it here, but would never take my children away from their dad (he is a great father and they all have an incredible bond). Plus, I couldnt bear putting them on a trans-atlantic flight for weeks at a time for visits. Which would mean I'd have to stay in this country until they grew up- with no friends, no family, no job, no money, etc. I do not make enough to support myself- let alone myself plus 2 children. I do not have a degree, so would not qualify for a well-paying job in this country (where in the states, experience counts for something...It doesnt mean anything here.) He does not make enough to be able to afford a place for himself AND child support (I'm not even sure I'd even GET custody in this country). Here, he has job security, good health care and a small mortgage which is almost paid off. In the States, jobs are hard to come by, and you can get laid off without any warning, PLUS the healthcare system is expensive and scary. And the schools there cost a fortune.
So you can see my nice, long, PRACTICAL list for staying in this marriage- it breaks my heart to not be able to write that I want to work on this marriage, "because I love him and have faith in US", etc etc. but thats just not where we're at. Today my youngest asked why we always argued when she was around. Before I could even stammer out an answer, my oldest said, "No- sometimes they argue at night after we go to bed". I feel awful awful awful awful. Its at the point where we skulk around each other like wolves or bears- if we accidentally get in each others space in the kitchen or passing in the hall, we're all, "Sorry! Sorry!"- passing by with our hands up like we have cooties and don't want to touch one another...
Years ago we tried couples counseling, which helped to ease the troubled waters. At this point, though, we are both so, so, so overextended- I can't even imagine a time where we'd both be able to get in to see someone (we are on a very tight budget these days, and we dont have any family nearby us. The last time we went to therapy, all I could do was spend the session counting out how much the therapist + babysitter+parking was going to cost us...I do plan to make a one-on-one appt as soon as school starts back up...
Ugh! I'm sorry that this is so long. I dont post that much, but I do read the boards faithfully. I hope it doesn't seem to obnoxious to come here and dump all of my woes... Does anyone think that anything can be done with this marriage? Does anyone have any helpful advice on just getting along? How can we have just a normal conversation when the kids are always around and by the time they go to sleep- he or I or both are so exhausted the last thing we want to do is open that can of worms. We are stuck in purgatory and I see my children suffering because or it. Can anyone help us?

Sara
sarabella is offline  
#2 of 19 Old 08-16-2010, 09:13 PM
 
syn_ack89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 920
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Nothing here but a

Never doubt that a small group of committed, thoughtful people can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. Margaret Mead
syn_ack89 is offline  
#3 of 19 Old 08-16-2010, 09:38 PM
 
JollyGG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,652
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
I guess I see two options here.

1. You can try to form a new romantic/friendly relationship. I'd start by trying really hard to look for the good. I'd concentrate on trying to do little kindnesses for him and on expressing your appreciation for what he does do. I don't know if you've seen the movie "Fireproof", but kinda the idea of the "Love dare". Basically work on you and the way you treat him and hope that he feels the kindnesses that you extend to him making him both more receptive to them and making him want to extend the same your way.

2. Talk it over and decide to live as roommates. Except that this isn't a marriage but a relationship where two people happen to share a house.

Mom to DS 4/24/03 and DD 4/17/06
JollyGG is online now  
#4 of 19 Old 08-16-2010, 09:39 PM
 
bobandjess99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Northern IN
Posts: 5,912
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
sorry. Is there some reason why you can't just agree that for all the practical reasons listed, you two will live as amicable "roommates" and just - erase all the expectations of being a couple?

CPST
bobandjess99 is offline  
#5 of 19 Old 08-17-2010, 05:00 PM - Thread Starter
 
sarabella's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 13
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thank you for taking the time to respond to my ramblings... I took a look at Love Dare, and while I'm not particularly religious, I do see a lot of value in the overall concept. I am willing to give it a try, although I know that there is no way that he ever would. I wonder if it works if it's one-sided... I guess I have too much pride to completely give into the "living as room-mates" thing- even if that is what we are doing anyway. My parents (actually, I was raised by my mother and step-father. They married when I was 4, though, so I always have considered him my "real" dad) were and still are deeply in love. I grew up with them kissing, holding hands, laughing together... During my turbulent teens, I resented them for paying so much attention to themselves and "ignoring" us kids... They are about to celebrate their 40th wedding anniversary and I see now what a real marriage is made of. I see the foundation that they set, and have grown up with them communicating and sharing each others lives. On the other hand, my husbands parents had a very, very bitter divorce when he was the same age as I was. His mother had/has a boyfriend who she never married (never divorced his dad) and who seems to have never allowed him to parent her children. They barely speak to each other, and dh told me that they have gone MONTHS without speaking to each other, even though they live in the same house. They only communicate with each other through the kids and grandkids. Walking into their house, the air is so thick you pretty much gag! Everyone walks on eggshells- yet they all (dh and siblings) seem to think this is "normal". In essence- we're them! And my husband doesnt see anything wrong with it because thats how he grew up! I'm not saying that my parents have a perfect marriage- they have had some rocky, rocky times, but just speaking with them for 5 minutes, you can see how much in love they still are... By acknowledging this roommate situation with my husband, it will be like admitting that I will never, ever have this happiness in my life. I will condemn my children to view marriage as what my husband and I have- and to sentence them to view our pathetic relationship as the "norm"...
sarabella is offline  
#6 of 19 Old 08-17-2010, 05:03 PM
 
Baby~Braatens~Mama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: The great plains =)
Posts: 1,348
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Oh, my thoughts are with you!

"A baby will make love stronger, days shorter, nights longer, bank balance smaller, home happier, clothes dirty, the past forgotten, and the future worth living for." ~A.U.
Baby~Braatens~Mama is offline  
#7 of 19 Old 08-18-2010, 01:35 AM
 
mija y mijo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,388
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JollyGG View Post
I guess I see two options here.

1. You can try to form a new romantic/friendly relationship. I'd start by trying really hard to look for the good. I'd concentrate on trying to do little kindnesses for him and on expressing your appreciation for what he does do. I don't know if you've seen the movie "Fireproof", but kinda the idea of the "Love dare". Basically work on you and the way you treat him and hope that he feels the kindnesses that you extend to him making him both more receptive to them and making him want to extend the same your way.
This is what I would suggest. You can do the "Love Dare" or something similar by yourself. You don't even have to let your husband know you're doing it. It's just a conscious decision on your part to work on you... your words, your actions/reactions, your attitude.

I pray that you are able to find joy and love in your marriage once again!
mija y mijo is offline  
#8 of 19 Old 08-22-2010, 04:36 PM
 
TinaM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 101
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Your situation sounds similar to mine. But we have good days and bad days. We have a dream life, actually. I wonder sometimes what is wrong with me. Now I try to focus on figuring out what it is that I need/want that will make me happy independent from him. If I can figure that out and attain it, I think my husband and I will be happy together. Maybe that will help you too. No more focusing on the marraige and what's missing. Focus on you and what you need to be happy (without him).

Mother to DD (9) DS (6) DD (3)
TinaM is offline  
#9 of 19 Old 08-25-2010, 12:50 AM
 
RedOakMomma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: A little stone house
Posts: 6,913
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Well, to me the idea that parking/babysitting/therapist added up is too much to spend is a little ridiculous.

You're talking about your happiness here. Your life. This is not a splurge. This is a necessity.

Therapy is never easy (logistically or emotionally), and I think we give the easy reasons ($, can't find someone we like, babysitting, etc.) as reasons not to dive into the WORK of fixing things. I'm not being critical--dh and I did the same thing for a couple of years.

And lets face it...fixing our own faults through work in therapy SUCKS. It's hard, it's emotional, it gets worse before it gets better...it's no cake walk. But the thing is, I'm guessing that most relationships are toxic for reasons that are roughly equally split between the partners. Yeah, you could give up on this relationship and move on to something else (or something friend-based), but would you really have solved anything? Will your baggage, or whatever is spoiling the relationship, go away? (For that matter, will his?) Let's say you do separate and find another relationship, or he does, or you both do...will things really change with guy/girl #2? Or will, eventually, these same sorts of issues creep in?

My gut feeling, if both partners are willing to work, is that it's best to stay in your relationship and do the hard work of healing, apologizing, and forgiving. If you're looking for motivation, just look at your kids. They deserve better than to pattern their future relationships on what they're seeing and experiencing. If the time/$ for therapy are too much for you to spend on yourself or your partner, spend it for their sakes.

RedOak ~ Momma to DS (8) , DS (4) , DD (3) , & DD 9/10 ~
RedOakMomma is offline  
#10 of 19 Old 08-25-2010, 03:28 PM
 
journeymom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Having a Gilly Water with McGonagall
Posts: 9,766
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedOakMomma View Post
Well, to me the idea that parking/babysitting/therapist added up is too much to spend is a little ridiculous.

You're talking about your happiness here. Your life. This is not a splurge. This is a necessity.

Therapy is never easy (logistically or emotionally), and I think we give the easy reasons ($, can't find someone we like, babysitting, etc.) as reasons not to dive into the WORK of fixing things. I'm not being critical--dh and I did the same thing for a couple of years.
I wouldn't use the word 'ridiculous'. Maybe I'd say, the idea that parking/babysitting/therapist added up is too much to spend needs to be re-evaluated. I totally agree, a person's life and happiness are worth the money, time and effort of getting some help.

Sarabella, you don't mention where you live. Is marital therapy common there? Would you be able to find a therapist? Or multiple to choose from? Finding one that works for you often requires multiple tries.

Honestly, I'm a big proponent of individual therapy over marital therapy.

Someone moved my effing cheese.
journeymom is offline  
#11 of 19 Old 09-27-2010, 01:16 AM
 
Farmin' with Baby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 66
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
My heart goes out to you. I really hope I don't find myself there in 10 years.

FWIW, the program that has helped me and my husband is Willard Harley's Marriage Builders stuff. http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ It's pretty hard core, but I think it's solid. I don't know how possible it'd be without your husband's cooperation....seems like you'd have to get him on board at least a little bit.

In my case, I've had to learn to get my own depression under control, do some individual therapy, force myself to get on an exercise program, before I can face my marriage issues. It's so hard though, and so easy to just want to take it all out on DH.


Mom to Jessie Marie 4/30/09
Farmin' with Baby is offline  
#12 of 19 Old 09-27-2010, 11:30 PM
 
Red Cape's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: on the way to grandma's house
Posts: 31
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I KNOW lots can be done. I am doing it. It's no cake walk, it's the hardest thing I've ever done, I don't recommend it on a whim. Luckily my husband and I did go to counselling together many times in the 15 years we were together, and we set a goal for ourselves that if it wasn't better by a certain date then we would accept the reality of not getting along, and separate, which we have done. But the reward of finding myself again, finding love in myself again, has been so enjoyable and invigorating.

I know I am not out of the woods yet. We are still not divorced, and there are many things that come up that send me to my bedroom in tears, like when he started dating, but I am unwilling to live in such unhappiness any longer. It wasn't good for me, my husband, or our son.

Though my husband agreed to go to counselling, he was quite unwilling to do the work or to try to understand me. He would just say we were not compatible and leave it at that. It takes 2 to tango I have always believed, and you can try to revive the relationship on your own (I highly recommend it), but setting a reasonable goal for yourself while you do this is important I think. What would a reasonable length of time be for you to try to bring the 2 of you back together? What signs or changes would you need to see to know the change was happening? And how are you going to support yourself through this? Because it is risky. You might get a lot of rejection from him as you try to make amends because some people just don't want to change. Having friends or family to talk to about it was so nourishing for me. You'll need some support that you can really lean on.

You can alway email me if you want to talk. I feel for you with the living out of your country thing. Thats really a tough one. But people work it out in many different ways. That would be something I would be researching like crazy. What are my options? Life is rarely perfect for me, but it sure has been a lot better since I started to listen to my heart. I sometimes wonder why I waited so long. I finally feel like I am getting back on track even though it wasn't the track I thought it would be.

Much love.

Mama to one bright, warm Son of '99
Red Cape is offline  
#13 of 19 Old 09-30-2010, 07:57 PM
 
BabyMae09's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Middle Earth
Posts: 1,367
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
To be totally honest, if I were in that situation (which sounds truly awful ) I would go to my husband and say: look, neither of us is happy. Let's just stop pretending, live as roomates, and give each other permission to find other close friends/even lovers.

I'm sure I'll get flamed for saying that, but honestly you guys both sounds miserable, which is not fair to either of you. Not only are you modeling that this what a marriage is to your children, but you are ruining his life and your own. You sound beyond depressed. I wouldn't advocate this approach if you'd given any hint that your marriage was salvageable, but you actually said the opposite.

Is it possible that he would move back to your own country, and you could get a divorce, as well? Just because it works for him to live there doesn't mean you or your kids have to be there. It's totally possible that you can find somewhere better to live... anyway, those are my rambly thoughts

I hope things get better for you, I truly do

Me,yummy.gif   DS, Peace.gif and DDdust.gif Grateful to the baby I lost for sticking around long enough to teach me what I needed to know so badly  candle.gif  We  love our forest valley home, our goats and chickenschicken3.gif, and wild harvested food-medicine coolshine.gif

BabyMae09 is offline  
#14 of 19 Old 10-03-2010, 02:27 AM
 
youngspiritmom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Home :)
Posts: 497
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I feel for you.
One thing I liked is that you said he is a great dad.
That shows you don't all out hate him.

This may be a really ignorant suggestion, but why don't you find something that you love about him to focus on (maybe that he's a good dad) and just use that as motivation to "kill him with kindness". For one day, force force force yourself to make him breakfast, and bring it to him. Then write him a nice note and put it on the door so he sees it before work. Don't make it complicated. Just one nice sentence.

If this softens him/you, I would try to do something intimate. Maybe a hug. You will feel like you want to resist him at first, but give in. Give in. Give in.

After all of this, maybe a door will open.

You two need to be young again. You have so many pressures on you - your kids, the other country etc etc. ALLOW yourselves to start over in small ways.

I would try that. Just try it. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. But before doing anything else, I would try that.

And take it day by day.

Mothering my sweet preschool boy luxlove.gif and my new arrival bfinfant.gif

youngspiritmom is offline  
#15 of 19 Old 10-06-2010, 06:19 PM
 
sara24bella's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 43
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I haven't been online much lately, but wanted to say thanks to everyone for the advice....Of course things are the same here, and you're right- there are things that I can do to try to fix this relationship as well. For the therapy thing, I did start going back- but just on my own. She was able to do a sliding scale and is really trying to help me through this. As far as separating/divorce: Looking into it, I found that I probably wouldn't be allowed to leave the country with the kids if he objected to it- I guess even my moving out would be grounds for him to have full custody (something about abandoning the children)... I also don't know that I could ever put them on a plane by themselves to come visit him (they're pretty small now...) I WILL look more into marriagebuilders and the other site. I don't know what else I can do at this point. I would love to say that if things weren't better in 6 months then we separate- but I'm just not strong enough. I can't see myself raising my children in a studio apartment while I work as a waitress or something. Sure- he could come home and say he's leaving and I may end up in that situation anyway, but at least I can say that I did everything to keep the children as comfortable as possible for as long as possible...Like one poster said- yes, we are both miserable, and it ISN'T fair to the children to grow up around this. I just don't know if it would be any better to grow up with a depressed, over-worked, underpaid, single, middle-aged mother in a crowded studio somewhere instead. I try my best to make sure that things are so great when he's not around- I love my children so much, and we are in a period where we are really enjoying each other these days. Its just when their dad gets home, suddenly all of the air gets sucked out of the room, and I feel prickly irritation almost rise through the floor, crawl up through my body and shoot out around me. The children get sullen, he puts on this weird "cheery" tone and the charade begins. I find myself sort of holding my breath until he leaves for work the next morning and I can have my "babies" back with me again... Thats SO unhealthy.....
sara24bella is offline  
#16 of 19 Old 10-06-2010, 08:41 PM
 
dakotablue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 985
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
no advice. Just wanted to tell you the Love Dare is actually 'meant' or formulated to be onesided. There is a movie (while poorly acted and Christian) that tells about the book. In the movie it is a failing marriage, no love two separate lives and the husband fights through the love dare on advice of his father. Its pretty good story wise.

Honestly if it were me. I'd start there, just because I know my Dh and if we got to that point communication would be shut down. At least then there would be hope of opening it up again.

biggrinbounce.gifDS 10/09  sleepytime.gifDS 2/17/11 stork-suprise.gif Blessing #3 sometime 2/13

 

dakotablue is offline  
#17 of 19 Old 10-07-2010, 09:23 PM
 
Sweetest Confection's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: europe
Posts: 151
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
All I can say is '*Hugs*'.

If you're concerned that your abilities to get a job in that country might make it hard for you to get custody, then I am pretty sure you must not be in Europe (European Union, I mean).

I don't know what to tell you... if you two can't find a way to communicate - even if only on a casual/friendly level for the children's sake - then there really isn't much hope. If your husband can't agree to somehow pull it together and treat you like a roommate - and vice-versa - I don't have much optimism.

I hope you can figure something out. I hope you can try to talk to him and work some sort of solution out (even if not romantic), for the sake of the children.


And, I can fully understand how much it must've hurt to hear your oldest say that to the younger sibling. A hurting parent/mother hopes, for their sake, that the children miss more of the relationship-problems than they actually do. And it's a real punch-in-the-gut or twist-on-the-rack to when you find out just how much they DO know.

Again, *Hugs* and best of luck.


Little note: I moved to another country, with a different native language which I had to learn, and had two children in a marriage that was... full of misery. (Seperated now, and waiting for the divorce to go through - planning to stay here, regardless, because of my children and own will to somehow make it all work, even when it's hard... that and that leaving America was something I've wanted to do for a couple years before I did move.)
I also had trouble making my own friends - hardly have any, still, except for a couple other mothers who aren't really close (we meet at playgrounds, frequently and I really enjoy talking to them, but that's the extent of our friendship).
Sweetest Confection is offline  
#18 of 19 Old 10-10-2010, 10:55 PM
 
ktgrok's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 163
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I love the marriage builders stuff!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Farmin' with Baby View Post
My heart goes out to you. I really hope I don't find myself there in 10 years.

FWIW, the program that has helped me and my husband is Willard Harley's Marriage Builders stuff. http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ It's pretty hard core, but I think it's solid. I don't know how possible it'd be without your husband's cooperation....seems like you'd have to get him on board at least a little bit.

In my case, I've had to learn to get my own depression under control, do some individual therapy, force myself to get on an exercise program, before I can face my marriage issues. It's so hard though, and so easy to just want to take it all out on DH.

ktgrok is offline  
#19 of 19 Old 10-17-2010, 02:46 PM
 
Red Cape's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: on the way to grandma's house
Posts: 31
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by sara24bella View Post
...Like one poster said- yes, we are both miserable, and it ISN'T fair to the children to grow up around this. I just don't know if it would be any better to grow up with a depressed, over-worked, underpaid, single, middle-aged mother in a crowded studio somewhere instead. I try my best to make sure that things are so great when he's not around- I love my children so much, and we are in a period where we are really enjoying each other these days. I
I just wanted to support you in knowing what's best for yourself. I think that's really important to listen to. Divorce has it's challenges too, that's for sure. It sounds like you do need some sort of change, but are not sure what yet, and building up your trustworthy friendships can only help no matter what decisions you make. I support you in whatever decision you choose. Since no one's partner can be everything to them, we are responsible for searching out what we need in our other relationships. I don't mean having affairs, I just mean developing love and support in our friendships. You deserve that.

Mama to one bright, warm Son of '99
Red Cape is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off