Life After Waldorf ~ A Support Group - Page 11 - Mothering Forums

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#301 of 1208 Old 08-26-2007, 05:29 AM
 
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[QUOTE=beansavi;8999137]Punishment Does Not Work
I am so proud of my school!

Basically, I just finished creating a 17 page chart (whew!) outlining a dozen different human behavioralists who expanded into the area of classroom management (behavior).

On the contrary, the only person we studied at Waldorf teacher training was Steiner and a couple followers.I really would have had more respect for them if they opened the gates a little bit and discussed other human behavioralists....but that's another thread...

All quite revealing Bean.Well done for completing this. Whadya do once it was finished? I think I'd have gone for the dakened room with a cool damp cloth to the forehead option!

Here's something that speaks of such single-sourced indoctrination (to my mind that's the word that serves best)

http://www.butterfliesandwheels.com/...nt.php?num=198

I have just checked that this is still available on the net. It is, but anyone wanting to access the full article might have to go to the 'Butterflies and Wheels' homepage first, click on
1) Frederick Crowe, then
2) Follies of the Wise.

"The question, of course, is how an outsider can be sure that one school of thought is less entitled to our trust than a rival one. In many instances such confidence would be unwarranted. Certain indicators of bad faith, however, are unmistakable: persistence in claims that have already been exploded; reliance on ill-designed studies, idolized lawgivers, and self-serving anecdotes; evasion of objections and negative instances; indifference to rival theories and to the need for independent replication; and “movement” belligerence. Where several of these traits are found together, even a lay observer can be sure that no sound case could be made for the shielded theory; its uncompetitiveness is precisely what has necessitated these indulgences."

I find this a quite fascinating article, and I rather think that anyone who could be bothered with the nuisances of getting to it would probably find there something even more appealing vis-a-vis their own personal experience.

Congrats again.
Max
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#302 of 1208 Old 08-26-2007, 05:38 AM
 
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Originally Posted by ravenna206 View Post
Hi Bean,
I know you are feeling blue. This might make you feel better that sometimes people do listen. The count at my small school and this is a rumored count is that at least 30 families are leaving. I know of 5 families that are definite including ours. It also doesn't help, that the person who was hired for the class is going through some tough emotional times and is not acting like a teacher.
You can suggest someone do something but sometimes until they figure it out for themselves there is nothing you can do. Except be a friend for when they finally say "OH".
Chin up
Hi Ravenna,
Would you escribe the place where you live as an Anthro/Waldorf 'hotspot'?
Thinking of the rumoured 30 families, do you think there is one single aspect that is sourcing such dissatisfaction, or are there myriad reasons?
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#303 of 1208 Old 08-26-2007, 11:02 AM
 
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I do not think we are a hub bub for anthro anything. I know there is an anthro society that a few people belong to. Neither have supported eachother. I think the school is where it is because the community it is in and the town right next door are very rich communities. The taxes are high. You mention either town and people know you have money. So the parents are hardworking and want an easier academic life for their children.

There is one family who brought in a lot of other families. They are a family who many trust because you know they are looking out for all the children in the school. Because of this, they have spoken up when things have not gone properly and have been looked down upon by the college. Yelled at, letters written to etc..., telling them that they are wrong. They have helped out with so many things and this year something happened where they said NO more. They would send their children but never ask for them to volunteer or donate anything. I guess after hearing what happened with our class. Plus knowing that financial records were being played with to look like the budget was balancing. They had enough!

Then the school was given a donation for a project to help beautify the school and then the school turned around and told the people that they weren't ready for this project. Even though the school made it sound like it could happen. So they gave 75% of the money back and the donater told them when they are ready to start let them know and they would be willing to give more. The money that was donated was probably the largest sum the school ever received. Who gives money back???
Plus at certain grades testing goes on to see how the children are doing compared to public. This information is not being released to parents and many parents aren't happy.
So I guess you could say not being up front and honest about anthro being the basis of the education got the school in trouble. Many decisions made this year were not smart logical decisions and when people said "Hey, what is going on?" They were ignored, yelled at, not listened to, etc... Also key people took committee jobs and spoke out about why the budget was not balanced, and they didn't leave it within the committees they talked. It is a parents right to know if any thing funny is going on! Plus what makes me mad is that all the men at our school are the highest paid! I have also not been quiet about pointing out what is wrong with the new teacher they hired. This person is going to do themselves in from their own behavior!!
Sorry I went on about the reasons, it just gets me so mad that people can be so stubborn and dumb. I don't think the school will be able to recover if 30 families do leave.
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#304 of 1208 Old 08-26-2007, 11:29 AM - Thread Starter
 
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"The question, of course, is how an outsider can be sure that one school of thought is less entitled to our trust than a rival one. In many instances such confidence would be unwarranted.

Where several of these traits are found together, even a lay observer can be sure that no sound case could be made for the shielded theory"




Well, that says it all, doesn't it?

Interestingly enough, I do not feel like speaking from a position of superiority, or as if I am making an "expose" (can't figure out my accent aigu mark), or trying to "drag down Waldorf".

It is all so unnecessary, since the facts speak for themselves: If Waldorf wants to be taken seriously in THIS WORLD as an educational philosophy, if it wants to have any REAL positive impact on society as it claims it does, then Waldorf must acknowledge that there are other brilliant, compassionate educators and human behavioralists out there. It must educate its teacher training students in a well-rounded manner. Waldorf must educate ITSELF on what these other theorists have written, the models they have created, and then compare or contrast them to its own educational philosophy in an upfront, rational manner. Then Waldorf would be taken seriously within the modern world of education.

As of today, I am aware that many people read what we say here, all over the world. Period. I am sure at least one pro-Waldorf person has scanned this thread. So, why is there no communication about ways to improve itself? Why see things in black and white, treating questioners in a negative manner? Silently monitoring the comments and support of those needing it?

What is keeping Waldorf from publicly acknowledging its problems? Why is the movement not rallying around itself and its questioners, coming together-in a conference even- to fix the problems, make ammends, and evolve into something positive?


This is a support only thread. But I welcome PMs.
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#305 of 1208 Old 08-27-2007, 12:18 AM
 
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Sorry, I've been away. I've been reading a bit.. Just soo busy ATM.. Hope everyone is well..

:
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#306 of 1208 Old 08-27-2007, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Sorry, I've been away. I've been reading a bit.. Just soo busy ATM.. Hope everyone is well..

:
I can relate. Hope you and your family are well.
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#307 of 1208 Old 08-27-2007, 01:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Hi Friends,

I want to share that I am at a new point in my journey. I feel like my healing is as close to complete as it can ever be, and I feel good about that.

I know that the reason I was able to heal at all is due to each of you. Without you to share your experiences and to offer your unending support, I would have always thought I was alone. I know now that none of us are alone and I thank you for that. This thread and the former one have changed my life for the better.

I am ready to move on, to joyfully live in the present. I no longer feel the need to expose anything about waldorf, and as we have seen through each others' experiences, the Universe really does take care of all of us, teaching us lessons to help us grow. I believe the waldorf movement is no exception to that universal law of love, and I hope they will use it to their full advantage.

I urge each of you to continue to support and educate, but as we have learned in the past, it is better to focus on our individual needs and support, rather than to attempt to expose waldorf or Steiner through various quotes and scandals. Sometimes quotes are necessary in order to fully understand what happened to us all, and that I feel is okay.

I think this thread will be far more successful and helpful if we continue to take the high road. The bottom line is, it is a much healthier approach for us, the ones who are bravely speaking out in order to help others.

With much love and gratitude,
Bean (aka Beth)
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#308 of 1208 Old 09-10-2007, 03:55 AM
 
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I've been so absent . . .


. . . Wanted to send you my love Beth I'm so happy and touched that you have found some peace and healing in your journey. I will not say that it has ended, because I think that so long as you keep all your wisdom from your experiences in your heart, the journey continues. If that makes any sense . . . bear with me, I have 9 weeks of pregnancy left and am running on fumes mentally at this point.


- Kira
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#309 of 1208 Old 09-10-2007, 03:30 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I've been so absent . . .


. . . Wanted to send you my love Beth I'm so happy and touched that you have found some peace and healing in your journey. I will not say that it has ended, because I think that so long as you keep all your wisdom from your experiences in your heart, the journey continues. If that makes any sense . . . bear with me, I have 9 weeks of pregnancy left and am running on fumes mentally at this point.


- Kira
I'm sorry....did you say NINE weeks left? : Where did the time go? Someone else's pregnancy always seems to go so much faster!

I hope happy and healthy and I look forward to hearing about your sweet little baby soon!

Thanks for what you said. You're the best. I agree that the journey is ongoing... but it feels good to be in the "now" and happy and content. I think we all deserve to feel that way.

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#310 of 1208 Old 09-14-2007, 01:38 PM
 
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Ok, I am trying to wade through this looooong thread and feeling very naive and uneducated.

I have been trying to put together a small co-op, parent run school. Basically we wanted to have a 3-6yo group and a 7-10 group. there is a waldorf teacher (still in training) in the area who wants to teach the 3-6yo.

I have been getting some of the details together and realized after reading this thread and the waldorf critics site that I am pretty uneducated when it comes to waldorf education.

here's what I thought: It would be a hands on curriculum where the kids would do the following: cook, lots of nature, lots of good quality art lessons and projects, handiwork, lots of make believe, play, construction, etc.

Now I am realizing there is a whole dimension that I know nothing about!!!!

So if anyone could point me to abbreviated versions of the whole picture, what I need to be aware of, etc. I would greatly appreciate it, it could take me forever to read through here, but I am trying.

Also, I am thinking maybe I should ditch the waldorf school/co-op idea and make up our own curriculum, or use the Enki curriculum.

I would appreciate any help others can give.
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#311 of 1208 Old 09-14-2007, 05:53 PM
 
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Whew!!! Read through the thread throughout the day (when I should have been cleaning )

I will check out the links and other other thread over the weekend. Any other suggestions, especially to learn more about the religion part would be great.
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#312 of 1208 Old 09-16-2007, 06:48 PM
 
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Whew!!! Read through the thread throughout the day (when I should have been cleaning )
I will check out the links and other other thread over the weekend. Any other suggestions, especially to learn more about the religion part would be great.
Dear Maggi,
Waldorf is very, very controversial. There are many, many people who have had bad experiences with it. Often when ex Waldorfers get together and discuss their experiences there is a chilling similarity between all of them. As far as I know Waldorf is the only educational system that has entire websites devoted to exposing all the bad things, it is the only system that has survivor support groups!
To be fair however if you go on the Waldorf forum on MDC and ask many of those who are happy with Waldorf about all the bad things, many of them will say that they never saw any of these things in their school. My personal opinion is I don't believe these people are lying however I think there is a tendency in Waldorf not to want to notice the bad things.
I have heard good things about ENKI and would say it is a safer choice.
Good luck!
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#313 of 1208 Old 09-16-2007, 09:44 PM
 
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Hi,
I want to first say that I have not any experience with Waldorf. I came to MDC and did a google search on Waldorf last year when I began my journey of preparing myself for my sons education. I check in on this thread every once in a while just to continue with my education. I can tell you that I have seen enough and have had enough red flag feelings about waldorf that I want nothing to do with it for my family. Most of the people I know here where I live are getting together and developing a Waldorf Co-op. It would be easier for me to just go along but I am not.
In a nutshell, I will say the thing that feels the most uncomfortable for me about Waldorf is that it is not really what it presents itself to be.
I have recently bought the Enki guide books and I have to say everything I am reading and have watched ( it comes with a DVD) feels good. No red flags what so ever. There is a yahoo group you can join if you have questions. The creator of Enki answers many of them personally.

Good luck!

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#314 of 1208 Old 09-16-2007, 10:37 PM
 
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Good for you for finding an alternative that feels good and authentic to you. I know only a small bit about Enki, but it seems to be more "open-minded" and more culturally aware and embracing, if you will, than the straightforward waldorf curriculum. Good luck.
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#315 of 1208 Old 09-16-2007, 10:37 PM
 
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Hi Bean, if you are out there, hope your year is going well so far!
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#316 of 1208 Old 09-17-2007, 11:05 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Dear Maggi,
Waldorf is very, very controversial. There are many, many people who have had bad experiences with it. Often when ex Waldorfers get together and discuss their experiences there is a chilling similarity between all of them. As far as I know Waldorf is the only educational system that has entire websites devoted to exposing all the bad things, it is the only system that has survivor support groups!
To be fair however if you go on the Waldorf forum on MDC and ask many of those who are happy with Waldorf about all the bad things, many of them will say that they never saw any of these things in their school. My personal opinion is I don't believe these people are lying however I think there is a tendency in Waldorf not to want to notice the bad things.
I have heard good things about ENKI and would say it is a safer choice.
Good luck!
Hey...well said, Jalilah! I think your quote (above) says a lot of necessary things for the two newest posters to hear/read. You are so good at that balanced approach! I admire that!
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Hi Bean, if you are out there, hope your year is going well so far!
Here I am!

Our year is going GREAT! My kids are very happy, and they seem to be feeling very grounded, and to have a sense of belonging that I have hoped for them for so long. Yippee!

Me, on the otherhand...I am knee-deep in projects for my own schoolwork!

But it is good to see/hear from you all and to see this thread still going. Karne, how is everything with you and yours?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
MamaPits and Maggie, I honestly feel this thread (and the one its linked to/it's former incarnation) to be a pretty balanced resource for info on Waldorf "real-life", and for links to other places and views. Thanks to all of the great contributors that have been around here for the last couple of years...
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#317 of 1208 Old 09-17-2007, 11:06 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Hi,

I have recently bought the Enki guide books and I have to say everything I am reading and have watched ( it comes with a DVD) feels good. No red flags what so ever. There is a yahoo group you can join if you have questions. The creator of Enki answers many of them personally.

Good luck!
Ooh! Do you mind sharing here where you got those?
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#318 of 1208 Old 09-18-2007, 12:41 PM
 
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Hi Everyone,

Great year so far. The ps is wonderful, my child's needs are being met in an incredibly straightforward and loving way. I feel so relieved, and the biggest gift? My hsb. and I are trusting our child's ability to learn, and to be taught. It turns out it isn't so difficult after all. I sometimes can't believe that we had to travel this journey to find a truly "child centered" approach. But, we're here and we're filled with gratitude.
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#319 of 1208 Old 09-18-2007, 10:25 PM
 
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http://www.enkieducation.org/html/ho...-resources.htm

That is the link for Enki. I am just going through the guide books now, there are 3 of them.

I love this thread, well the original one, I really feel like it saved me a lot of trouble. In my research there were a lot of uncomfortable things I felt about Waldorf but I could not put my finger on it exactly or I wasn't sure if what I wasn't comfortable with was the waldorf or the actual people who were describing/explaing waldorf to me. After following the thread here, I was able to clarify what I was feeling and hearing and seeing.

Enki has many of the same types of beautiful stories and arts and crafts and magic that makes Waldorf so attractive but without the Anthroposophy.

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#320 of 1208 Old 09-20-2007, 10:37 PM - Thread Starter
 
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http://www.enkieducation.org/html/ho...-resources.htm

That is the link for Enki. I am just going through the guide books now, there are 3 of them.

I love this thread, well the original one, I really feel like it saved me a lot of trouble. In my research there were a lot of uncomfortable things I felt about Waldorf but I could not put my finger on it exactly or I wasn't sure if what I wasn't comfortable with was the waldorf or the actual people who were describing/explaing waldorf to me. After following the thread here, I was able to clarify what I was feeling and hearing and seeing.

Enki has many of the same types of beautiful stories and arts and crafts and magic that makes Waldorf so attractive but without the Anthroposophy.
Thank you for that link... and I got teary eyed when I read that you feel you avoided the potential pitfalls in Waldorf by reading the stories so many have shared. Education is power, isn't it? Thanks for letting us know.
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#321 of 1208 Old 09-20-2007, 10:40 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Hi Everyone,

Great year so far. The ps is wonderful, my child's needs are being met in an incredibly straightforward and loving way. I feel so relieved, and the biggest gift? My hsb. and I are trusting our child's ability to learn, and to be taught. It turns out it isn't so difficult after all. I sometimes can't believe that we had to travel this journey to find a truly "child centered" approach. But, we're here and we're filled with gratitude.
: How beautiful: beautiful for your child, beautiful for you and your dh...and beautifully stated.

I am so happy for you. Thank you for being so open and sharing your experiences.
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#322 of 1208 Old 09-23-2007, 01:40 AM
 
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Well, we've all had our first full month of the transistion from waldorf school to public school, so "Life After Waldorf" is in full swing! I have to say that we were fearful, but so far, the experience has been very,very good. The academics are so straightforward and consistent, which really seems to work well for our child. The social picture is really healthy-respect and politeness are an enormous part of the robust social relationships that I've observed, and that is definitely a change for us. We worried about losing "community", but I think that we're in touch with a different sort of community now-one with a different set of boundaries and expectations to be sure, but it feels OK, comfortable even. All in all, we're pleased with our decision.
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#323 of 1208 Old 09-23-2007, 11:25 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Well, we've all had our first full month of the transistion from waldorf school to public school, so "Life After Waldorf" is in full swing! I have to say that we were fearful, but so far, the experience has been very,very good. The academics are so straightforward and consistent, which really seems to work well for our child. The social picture is really healthy-respect and politeness are an enormous part of the robust social relationships that I've observed, and that is definitely a change for us. We worried about losing "community", but I think that we're in touch with a different sort of community now-one with a different set of boundaries and expectations to be sure, but it feels OK, comfortable even. All in all, we're pleased with our decision.
Yay! That sounds like it's time to bring on the dancin' produce:
:

...and I'll even throw in a little public school sheep (they are not exclusive to Waldorf, ya' knows )!
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#324 of 1208 Old 09-27-2007, 10:51 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Here's something interesting:

Once again, the further I delve into my graduate work, working towards certification to teach public school, the more I am exposed to ideas I once thought were exclusive to Waldorf. the following is the Social Studies/Social Sciences and History curriculum framework for public schools, established by local governments among nearly all fifty states in the U.S.:

The existing organizational pattern of the social studies curriculum in grades K through 6 follows
what has been characterized by Hanna (1963) as the expanding-communities curriculum pattern.
This approach, which has dominated the elementary curriculum for several decades, is based
on the notion that a student will be introduced during each year of school to an increasingly
expanding social environment, moving from examining the self and the family in grades K–1 to
the world at large in grade 6. Hanna’s model also identified nine categories of basic human activities
that should be addressed during each year of the social studies curriculum: expressing, producing,
transporting, communicating, educating, recreating, protecting, governing, and creating
(Powers, 1986).


I was taught in my Waldorf training to teach the child beginning with the center and then expanding gently outward into the surrounding community, etc. in reference to History and Social Sciences. I am happy to know that this view (with which I agree) has been shared by the public school realm for nearly half a century.
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#325 of 1208 Old 09-27-2007, 11:52 AM
 
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I just wanted to give an up date of how my dd is doing in public school. She's doing wonderful and really is enjoying public school. She is only behind in math and will only need a little extra help. Her teacher is really great. He starts off the day with excericises and all the children are given jobs to help out in the classroom. He has a zoo in the room and I do believe they help feed the snakes and lizards. My dd has quickly gotten over her fear of snakes. Which makes me very happy. She has told me she never wants to go back Waldorf and I think she is a little angry at what has occurred there. I am waiting for her to open up when she is ready. Socially she has friends in her classroom and many others from the 7 classes in her grade. So she's not limited like she was in Waldorf. My dh and I are very happy it's gone so well. I do worry because her days are very long 6am-7pm before she gets home but she likes being out and about and being part of her father's after school life. He does various clubs in the high school and brings her along. I hope everyone else is having a great school year also!!
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#326 of 1208 Old 09-27-2007, 12:55 PM
 
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Ravenna I am happy to read your post, and so happy for your DD. As I posted earlier, we are having a similar VERY positive experience. I was hoping for good, but not expecting great, if you know what I mean! Because my point of reference has been our waldorf experience, I find that I am constantly comparing. The biggest eye-opener is that the activities/approaches that I assumed were strictly waldorf, are in fact incorporated into our everyday public school life. Personally, I think the social dynamic is healthier, and the children's neede to be respectful of one another is very clear cut. I am, every day, amazed by the creativity and caring of the teachers in the school, and the remarkable job they are doing helping my child to "catch up".
It sounds like your child has transistioned really well, which must make you fell good too!
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#327 of 1208 Old 09-27-2007, 08:21 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Ravenna I am happy to read your post, and so happy for your DD. As I posted earlier, we are having a similar VERY positive experience. I was hoping for good, but not expecting great, if you know what I mean! Because my point of reference has been our waldorf experience, I find that I am constantly comparing. The biggest eye-opener is that the activities/approaches that I assumed were strictly waldorf, are in fact incorporated into our everyday public school life. Personally, I think the social dynamic is healthier, and the children's neede to be respectful of one another is very clear cut. I am, every day, amazed by the creativity and caring of the teachers in the school, and the remarkable job they are doing helping my child to "catch up".
It sounds like your child has transistioned really well, which must make you fell good too!
Nicely put, Karne. Ravenna, I am so happy for you. Please continue to share.
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#328 of 1208 Old 10-05-2007, 12:55 AM
 
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I wasnt quite sure where to put this but I ran across this thread and this issue came to mind...we are new to waldorf..dd is in K, we will be moving next year so Waldorf isnt my plan for all of her schooling,,,anyway,,recently i picked her up from school and she had quite a burn on her arm...the teachers never mentioned it, I had to see it for myself...turns out she was burned by another child ironing, I had no idea they ironed in class.

Can anyone share any similar experiences with me?

dust.gif
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#329 of 1208 Old 10-05-2007, 10:55 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I wasnt quite sure where to put this but I ran across this thread and this issue came to mind...we are new to waldorf..dd is in K, we will be moving next year so Waldorf isnt my plan for all of her schooling,,,anyway,,recently i picked her up from school and she had quite a burn on her arm...the teachers never mentioned it, I had to see it for myself...turns out she was burned by another child ironing, I had no idea they ironed in class.

Can anyone share any similar experiences with me?
Um. Yeah. My child being molested by another child every day for 2 weeks without the teacher ever "noticing" it. My son eventually came to me, after internalizing it for so long.

When I was a KG assistant, the teacher let the children cut the vegetables with a very sharp serrated knife every time. It always freaked me out to see it...but that was another example of how I buried my natural instincts so deeply in favor of going along with the flow. It also freaked me out that she allowed the children to build forts in the classroom with cobblestones (square, rocks about 6"X6") ON TOP OF CHAIRS to hold down the silks, while the kids played on the floor below, often knocking the cobblestones onto the floor, close to heads, fingers...)
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#330 of 1208 Old 10-05-2007, 11:00 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Okay, I am actually here today because I made the STUPID mistake of looking at my old school's freaking website. God it makes me so sick I do not even want to go into the details of what I saw and why it makes me sick...just needed to crawl in here and go "AAAAARG!"

Okay, so, um. Thanks.
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