Whats the big deal about signing the no-vax paper at the dr? And why no blood tests? - Mothering Forums
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#1 of 34 Old 05-30-2004, 02:42 AM - Thread Starter
 
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This may be a silly question but I'll ask anyway, Im not trying to start anything I honestly am wondering if Im missing something...
What is the big deal about signing the paper that the drs ask you to sign when you refuse vax? My ds's dr told me the AAP recommended that they have everyone sign it, blah blah blah... But from what I read all it says is that there are risks to not vaccinating and that the dr has advised you to get the shots but you declined.
I guess I dont see that this paper carries so much wieght anywhere. Or does it? Someone please let me know. Is it a matter of the point of it and your feelings on the whole issue that make it a big deal? Is it standing up for your beliefs? Just the fact that its wrong? If you are thinking that the medical system is crap (which I do) then why worry about being seen or written down in the med. records as "refusing" or having this paper on file as I have seen some people say concerned them?
I agree its crap and political bs but does it really matter, how many other pointless peices of paper are signed everyday? I did ask him that if I took his advice and vaxed would he sign a reciprical release to me taking full responsibility for any reactions/damage from the vaccines my son had just to see his reaction even though I planned to sign his. Lol. He stuttered, his eyes fluttered and he finally managed to splutter that he didnt think that this was going to work out. "This" being him being my sons pediatrician. I have decided that I do not want him being my ds's pedi but that dosent have anything to do ith the paper. I just dont feel comfortable that if my son were very sick that he would be capable of treating him or have the appropriate attitude to do so seeing how he would view it if he did get a ""vaccine preventable disease"". But the paper didnt really effect that, since I have signed one for the previous dr. as well and didnt have these feelings.


Anyway....

Ok Question number two: Why would you be against blood tests?
I see alot of posts refering to not wanting drs to take blood from their kids. I was told the last time I took my son that Medicaid required that they test for lead at this appointment. Medicaid adds a whole new aspect as it severly limits the dr choices (none accepting new patients) you have and I cannot afford to find a friendly freethinking dr. as I wish. So you have to do what they ask or they drop you. Ds 7mo. had a finger stick which he didnt even cry for and didnt even seem uncomfortable. Anyway this is what got me thinking about seeing alot of people talking not having blood tests done on their kids. I know some of the tests require a full blood test though. Is it just not wanting to expose your child to traumatic events or something more that Im not thinking of?...


Thanks
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#2 of 34 Old 05-30-2004, 03:45 AM
 
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If you have read the vaccine refusal form, it's condescending with the following statement,

"I know that failure to follow the recommendations about vaccination may endanger the health or life of my child and others that my child might come in contact with."

Mainly because they don't address the very real risks of vaccinating!

I would have no problem signing the form, once I have added an additional paragraph,

I understand there are risks to vaccinating that may endanger the health or life of my child.
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#3 of 34 Old 05-30-2004, 11:09 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suschi
If you have read the vaccine refusal form, it's condescending with the following statement,

"I know that failure to follow the recommendations about vaccination may endanger the health or life of my child and others that my child might come in contact with."

Mainly because they don't address the very real risks of vaccinating!

I would have no problem signing the form, once I have added an additional paragraph,

I understand there are risks to vaccinating that may endanger the health or life of my child.
This is my beef with the form. I refuse to sign a form insinuating that I'm neglectful of my children in any way. Not only am I concerned that such a form could be used against a parent at a later time, but I also feel that I am a parent who takes great pride in making informed decisions in regards to my children. I refuse to sign a paper contradicting that.

As for blood tests, my children have never needed a CBC or any such test. They've had their iron checked and such. I guess it would depend on what the blood test was looking for. I've never refused one as it has never been brought up.

Homesteading Mama to homeschoolin' kiddos London (10) ; Alexander (8) :; Holden (5) :; and Sergei born at home 8/18/08
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#4 of 34 Old 05-30-2004, 11:27 AM
 
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I would refuse to sign that form since it puts the parent in the wrong place - the defensive.

Doctors/medical science has never proven to me how vaccinations really work, nor why everybody needs them.

I have refused vaccinations since there is no science behind them. The form also states that I know I am putting other children and people at risk - ? I am? How is that possible? That is not even a recognized problem according to the germ theory that vaccination is based on.

I would not sign anything as wrong as this form.
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#5 of 34 Old 05-30-2004, 01:51 PM
 
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"I know that failure to follow the recommendations about vaccination may endanger the health or life of my child and others that my child might come in contact with."

This is such a loaded paragraph. Why would anyone sign a form saying that they're knowingly endangering the health and life of their child? It's a signed statement that you're abusing/neglecting your kid!

(I don't believe it's abuse/neglect, but by the way it's worded, that's what parents are admitting to.)

The paper I'd like to see is the one the doctor signs when he gives the vaccines. The one that says, "I know that giving your child this vaccine may endanger his life or cause permanent damange to his body, but I'm recommending it anyway."

I'm not sure what blood tests the op is referring to. I'm not opposed to all blood tests, but we don't do anything "routinely," only on as "as needed" basis.

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#6 of 34 Old 05-30-2004, 02:26 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suschi
If you have read the vaccine refusal form, it's condescending with the following statement,

"I know that failure to follow the recommendations about vaccination may endanger the health or life of my child and others that my child might come in contact with."

Mainly because they don't address the very real risks of vaccinating!

I would have no problem signing the form, once I have added an additional paragraph,

I understand there are risks to vaccinating that may endanger the health or life of my child.

wow I didnt know some forms said that. All mine said was if there was an outbrake my child would have to miss school/daycare and not be able to make up those days.

but I signed a religious exemption thing at the health department
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#7 of 34 Old 05-30-2004, 02:32 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Yeah, you guys are right. I thought the same thing that iit wasnt true and I didnt feel like I was putting my child in danger but I felt I didnt have a choice about signing the paper as none of the available drs would consent to being my sons dr if I refused to sign. I have also talked to CPS and the court system about this issue as well as I had the same concerns about it being used against me. I know CPS by law can not use vaccination status against you. Also I recently went through a custody battle and was investigated by the court via childrens court services and a court appointed guardian ad litem, of whom I discussed this with. She told me that for me not to sign the form and not have the kids going regularly to a pedi would be seen as neglectful and that it was fine to not get the shots as long as I was documented as opposing them consientiously(SP) and discussing it with a pedi rather than refusing to sign the form or not taking the kids to the dr. As I wasnt at the time taking the kids for their "well child visits" as that seems a bit of an oxymoron to me.
The cps person that I spoke with had the same thing to say about it.
Since I am recently a single mom we are on Medicaid and I have no money to go to a dr of my choosing as well as the fact that there are no drs taking new medicaid patients at this time in my area.
I guess it depends on your situation, I wish I could afford to not sign the form and stand up for what I believe. I really wish I could but with xdh trying to find a reason to get the kids taken from me I guess I have to play the game.

Also I am thinking as well that my form didnt say "I know that failure to follow the recommendations about vaccination may endanger the health or life of my child and others that my child might come in contact with."
I dont remember anything like that,
I will have to ask for a copy of it.
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#8 of 34 Old 05-30-2004, 04:58 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MommyCat
Yeah, you guys are right. I thought the same thing that iit wasnt true and I didnt feel like I was putting my child in danger but I felt I didnt have a choice about signing the paper as none of the available drs would consent to being my sons dr if I refused to sign. I have also talked to CPS and the court system about this issue as well as I had the same concerns about it being used against me. I know CPS by law can not use vaccination status against you. Also I recently went through a custody battle and was investigated by the court via childrens court services and a court appointed guardian ad litem, of whom I discussed this with. She told me that for me not to sign the form and not have the kids going regularly to a pedi would be seen as neglectful and that it was fine to not get the shots as long as I was documented as opposing them consientiously(SP) and discussing it with a pedi rather than refusing to sign the form or not taking the kids to the dr. As I wasnt at the time taking the kids for their "well child visits" as that seems a bit of an oxymoron to me.
The cps person that I spoke with had the same thing to say about it.
Since I am recently a single mom we are on Medicaid and I have no money to go to a dr of my choosing as well as the fact that there are no drs taking new medicaid patients at this time in my area.
I guess it depends on your situation, I wish I could afford to not sign the form and stand up for what I believe. I really wish I could but with xdh trying to find a reason to get the kids taken from me I guess I have to play the game.

Also I am thinking as well that my form didnt say "I know that failure to follow the recommendations about vaccination may endanger the health or life of my child and others that my child might come in contact with."
I dont remember anything like that,
I will have to ask for a copy of it.
A better alternative would be to draw up your own vaccine refusal form.

Something to the effect of the dr has discussed vaccines with you and you are unable to consent to vaccines at this time.

They have their documented "refusal" and you don't sign a form that may imply you are "endangering" your children.

In our state statutes, you can find this paragraph,

The 2003 Florida Statutes

Title XLVIII
K-20 EDUCATION CODE Chapter 1003
PUBLIC K-12 EDUCATION View Entire Chapter

1003.22 School-entry health examinations; immunization against communicable diseases; exemptions; duties of Department of Health.--

(6)(a) No person licensed by this state as a physician or nurse shall be liable for any injury caused by his or her action or failure to act in the administration of a vaccine or other immunizing agent pursuant to the provisions of this section if the person acts as a reasonably prudent person with similar professional training would have acted under the same or similar circumstances.


(b) No member of a district school board, or any of its employees, or member of a governing board of a private school, or any of its employees, shall be liable for any injury caused by the administration of a vaccine to any student who is required to be so immunized or for a failure to diagnose scoliosis pursuant to the provisions of this section.

If vaccines are so safe, why are these statements necessary?
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#9 of 34 Old 05-30-2004, 05:15 PM
 
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Ditto to the above. Draw up your own form. You dont have to just flat out refuse, just go prepared with your own form stating your refusal. It covers their butt like they want and you are not signing lies and going against yourself.

Desiree

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#10 of 34 Old 05-30-2004, 06:19 PM
 
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I have a couple questions in reguards to signing a form for refusing vaxes. Do you have to sign it? What will happen if you refuse to sign it? Should I bring an exemption form (in NC you don't have to file the exemption with the state you just have to have a copy for whom ever you are giving the exemption to)?

We go in for Tristan's 6 month well baby which I am excited for so they can take his weight and measurments. But I am scared. Last appointment I denied 2 of his vaxes but got the other two claiming that I wanted to vax on a delayed schedule. But now when I go in I am going to refuse all vases so I am expecting a big ta do from the Peds office (we see a different doc every time because it is a big practice).

Anyways... any advice would be great. I am extremely nervous but very proud to claim no vax status (does that make sence) to my doctor.
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#11 of 34 Old 05-30-2004, 11:46 PM
 
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We no longer go to the Ped. He hasnt been sick so there hasnt been a need. i take his measurements myself and weigh him on the electronic scale of my granddads store
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#12 of 34 Old 05-31-2004, 12:18 AM
 
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I never heard of that form. When we got a new ped ('cause our other one moved out of state) I just said on the pt info form that our DD was not vax per parent's decision. I would think that is clear enough that we made that decision. I think drawing up your own form would be a better idea too, but I have a feeling that if these docs were so adamant about you signing their form, they would not have accepted a substitute.

I agree that not having a ped for your child is a red flag for CPS but I am surprised that you could not find one doc in your area who would accept you without this document. If that were me, I think I would have consulted an attorney.

I don't know about the blood test issue. I don't see why anyone would need to test a child for anything unless they have good reason to suspect an illness/risk. My guess about the lead test is the correlation between low-income families and at-risk housing (old apts w/lead-based paint). Just my guess. Doesn't mean it's necessary at all. I think sometimes one can get thrown into a category that comes with all sorts of routine stuff. :

Hope all goes well for you and your DS.
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#13 of 34 Old 05-31-2004, 12:20 AM
 
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I've never heard about this form :
I've refused 2 vaxes and never signed anything.

Mom of 3 sons and one daughter
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#14 of 34 Old 05-31-2004, 12:59 AM - Thread Starter
 
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hunnybumm
Well my experience has been that should you refuse to sign the form the dr refuses to be your pedi. I am pretty confident also that they would not accept my revised version, either. It all sounds good here and is the way it should be but in real life they dont need us, if we walk out the door someone else is walking in at the same time. I may end up kicking myself later but im not that worried about having signed the paper at this point. I think its a good idea to already have a relationship with a pedi for your child even if you never plan to take your child. You never know when something unexpected and serious will happen and you really do need them, and a crisis is not the time to find out if you feel comfortable with their capabilities in treating your child or to run around making yourself crazy trying to find a dr or insurance and all the complications that that involves these days, kwim?

As for your dr visit coming up be prepared for a textbook dead baby story. Usually it goes something like "just this/last year a baby from this/a nearby clinic died of whooping cough/whatever" Or some other disease horrors. Just brush up the night before on your research youve been doing so you wont be caught off guard and you wont be intimidated so easily by their scare tactics and fear mongering. I think it is definantly pointless to debate or even explain your reasons to them in depth, this will just cause you more stress. I would just look interested in what they are saying, nod my head, maybe say "I didnt know that" or "you may be right". Tell them you are really going to look into what they told you, or something else that strokes the huge dr ego. Kwim? Just say your unsure yet about it and you would feel more comfortable waiting even if you are already sure. That way no one is on the defensive or needing to prove their point. Im sure youre still researching it as most of us around here do so it wont even be a lie.
I know how much fun it can be just to go get the baby measured and weighed so dont stress yourself out about the shots.
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#15 of 34 Old 05-31-2004, 02:01 AM
 
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THANKS MOMMYCAT... LOVE THE NAME BTW... ITS LATE SO I CANT SAY MORE

omg... sorry for caps
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#16 of 34 Old 05-31-2004, 02:17 AM
 
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I have Medicaid too and I've never signed a waiver form for shots. I guess it's DR to DR, but it just seems silly. We did have our first ped fire us though and we had to get a new one. She's great though! Is Medicaid requiring the lead test or the state? Some states requite the test b/c the area is generally high in lead, as is our state. My son just had a cbc done and a lead test (I forgot to ask about the cbc) at his 12 mos appt. We live in a house that is over 100 yrs old and I have no idea about our soil or water. I hope you figure things out and things go well.

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AJ (5/03), Evan (12/04), Ilana (11/06), Olivia (2/09), and Unity (8/2012)

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#17 of 34 Old 05-31-2004, 03:37 AM
 
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Originally Posted by thepeach80
We did have our first ped fire us though and we had to get a new one.
: : :

Im sorry I HAD to laugh, I just pictured Donald Trump as your Ped. Saying : "Your Fired!"

We have Medicaid too and I have a Ped who is VERY old fashioned, being that he *is* 80 something. We just dont go to him unless DS is sick, which is never.
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#18 of 34 Old 05-31-2004, 09:52 AM
 
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I had our current ped before going on medicaid(no longer on medicaid).I have never had to sign any vaccine refusal form.I was not even asked why I did not vaccinate.Very simple.I agree that the form as is makes non-vaccination sould like medical neglect. Having dealt with CPS I would not put myself in that situation,though ofcourse CPS can pretty much do anything if they set their sites on you!
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#19 of 34 Old 05-31-2004, 10:00 AM
 
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Originally Posted by MommyCat
I know CPS by law can not use vaccination status against you.
Depends. If you have an exemption then you're legally covered. But if it appears that you simply haven't gotten the vaxes, then it's considered medical neglect. This may vary from state to state, but I've seen many, many families taken to court over this.

Rather than signing something saying that I'm aware that I'm putting my child in danger, I'd be sure to have exemption papers in order and give the doc a copy of that if he asked me to sign anything. This form from the AAP is something that they *recommend* doctors have their patients sign, it's not required by law. Since most (all?) states have legally valid exemption options, (which don't require that you cop to neglect) I'd give the doc a copy of that if he required something for his files.

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#20 of 34 Old 05-31-2004, 02:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by SEEPAE
We no longer go to the Ped. He hasnt been sick so there hasnt been a need. i take his measurements myself and weigh him on the electronic scale of my granddads store
And when he grows, you don't try to stop him now, do you? :LOL

I'm all with you, let the kid grow and gain on his own. No forceing it no stopping it, just the way it comes naturally. That's the way I raised three kids and they are all healthy adults now. (And one of them is a doctor...)
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#21 of 34 Old 05-31-2004, 02:08 PM
 
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#22 of 34 Old 06-01-2004, 05:38 PM
 
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I found the document that the AAP puts out. Here is an excerpt:

[Documenting Parental Refusal to Accept Vaccination

All parents and patients should be informed about the risks and benefits of preventive and therapeutic procedures, including vaccination. In the case of vaccination, federal law mandates this discussion. Despite the health care provider’s best efforts to explain its importance, some families may refuse vaccination for their children. The use of this or a similar form, demonstrating the importance you place on appropriate immunizations and focusing the parent's attention on the unnecessary risk for which they are accepting responsibility, may in some instances induce a wavering parent to accept your recommendations.]

This is pdf (you need to have Adobe Acrobat to view)

http://www.cispimmunize.org/pro/pdf/...Vaccinate2.pdf

As to the line in the document:

"I know that failure to follow the recommendations about vaccination may endanger the health or life of my child and others that my child might come in contact with."

There is always the choice to draw a line through it and simply initial next to it.

*Or you could write this statement in:

I have investigated the risks and benefits of the vaccines and diseases.
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#23 of 34 Old 06-01-2004, 05:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by gilnikche
All parents and patients should be informed about the risks and benefits of preventive and therapeutic procedures, including vaccination.
I can't help but notice that this says, "RISKS" as well as benfits. It then goes on to say that, "Despite the health care provider’s best efforts to explain its importance, some families may refuse vaccination for their children."

It's a shame we don't see their "best efforts" to explain the risks. It's no surprise that docs feel vax benefits outweigh the risks, but the fact that they sidestep the law and leave out the risks, or gloss over them is just sick.

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#24 of 34 Old 06-03-2004, 02:17 AM
 
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The form that Carla posted was the one I signed with our mainstream ped. who has been pretty supportive so far. (He has a son with Asberger's, I suspect he wonders about the cause although we've never discussed it.)

I did draw a line through that offensive sentance and wrote a paragraph of my own citing our extensive research, that vax coverage routinely "fails", we bf and don't day care, and that the risks of vaccine reactions are very real, especially for our DS with an autoimmune disorder and family history: DH had seizures as a child (which could very well have been from vax).

Still bothered me to sign it, but I realize if I want to stay in the system I had to play by their rules.
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#25 of 34 Old 06-04-2004, 06:49 PM
 
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I also signed this paper at my DS2s 2 month well check. The ped tried to talk me into getting the vaxes and said that it was up to me, but there was a paper I needed to sign. :

I did remember reading the offensive paragraph others have mentioned, but I guess I didn't think it was as bad as everyone has been saying. Maybe I should have read it more carefully.

I'm wondering what is worse getting coerced into giving your child vaxes or signing a paper that says you know the risks of not following the advice of the doctor?

I went to his 4 month well check yesterday and this time the NP tried to get me to start his vaxes. I told her I still wanted to wait because he has a cold. She said it was OK to give the shots when he has a cold. I think I need to find a new ped., one who won't try to harass me about vaxes. I'm new to this whole refusing vaxes issue as my other two are fully vaxed :
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#26 of 34 Old 06-06-2004, 12:17 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gitti

is there an updated version of this? says last modified jan 2001.

~ Belinda, single 35 yr old WAHM to two super-cute DDs 8/17/03 and 1/27/07 heartbeat.gif
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#27 of 34 Old 06-06-2004, 03:16 PM
 
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What happens if you refuse to sign the vax form?

I haven't taken ds for vaxes since he was 6 mos. and at 9 mos I told them I wanted to wait because he had a cold at the time. I'm trying to be prepared for when I go with the new baby.
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#28 of 34 Old 06-06-2004, 07:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by beebs
is there an updated version of this? says last modified jan 2001.
I don't think anything has changed since then, so there would be no need for an update.

C.
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#29 of 34 Old 06-07-2004, 01:36 PM
 
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I went to my DS 6 month well baby check and they had me sign a paper as well. But I read it carefully, it was very short maybe 4 lines typed. I was very surprised because they form was very formal, it had already been preprinted and everything. Also, the wording wasn't bad at all. It just stated that we were informed of the risks and benefits of the vaxes but that we were choosing not to get the shots. And that I take full responsability for not getting vaxed. I had no problem at all signing it, that is pretty much what my exeption forms say. Had I felt the form was saying I was neglecting the health of my child I wouldn't have signed it.

Also, I was plesantly surprised at how little resistance I got from the ped (I see a different one each time). She tried to talk me into getting the Hib saying she had personaly seen many kids suffer bla bla, I just said no thank you, we are still doing research. She ask me to research the Hib. She felt they were all necessary but that the Hib was the most important. I didn't feel too pressured, which was good.

*ETA* I hate people who are 2 faced... this doc sucks... (see my thread called "Doctor called my house...")
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#30 of 34 Old 06-07-2004, 02:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suschi
I don't think anything has changed since then, so there would be no need for an update.

C.
I noticed one part mentioned that the Injury Compensation program had paid out over 1 billion dollars "to date." I imagine that's changed. Not that that's a huge point or anything, but it just pays to have all your ducks in a row. There might be other things on that form that aren't quite right, as well.
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