'Bush = Hitler' proposition. - Mothering Forums

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Old 05-20-2003, 12:02 PM - Thread Starter
 
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The following quotes are from http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...&notFound=true
Wash Post article:

QUOTE:

"In the April 12 TV Guide, the publication says that "Gernon stated his belief that fear fueled both the Bush administration's adoption of a preemptive-strike policy and the public's acceptance of it." According to the article, "Gernon said a similar fearfulness in a devastated post-World War I Germany was 'absolutely' behind that nation's acceptance of Hitler's extremism."

Gernon is quoted as saying of the miniseries, which tracks Hitler's rise to power in 1930s Germany: "It basically boils down to an entire nation gripped by fear, who ultimately chose to give up their civil rights and plunged the whole world into war.

"I can't think of a better time to examine this history than now," he added.

The article further quotes him as saying that "when an entire country becomes afraid for their sovereignty, for their safety, they will embrace ideas and strategies and positions that they might not embrace otherwise."


An advance copy of the article was given to the New York Post -- both it and TV Guide are publications of Rupert Murdoch's News Corp. The newspaper's Page Six gossip column did a short bit on it last Thursday, under the heading "Rise of Lunacy at CBS."

"The scraping sound you hear next month will be Hollywood's anti-Americanism hitting bottom with the CBS movie 'Hitler: The Rise of Evil,' " the item bellowed.

"Gernon tells the upcoming TV Guide that he, [actress Julianna] Margulies and director Christian Duguay believe it's a good idea to look at the Bush White House through the prism of . . . Germany's genocidal psychopath."
Yesterday, the same paper's John Podhoretz got in on the act

"Well, the CBS television network just devoted millions of dollars and will devote four hours of prime time to a miniseries dedicated to the 'Bush = Hitler' proposition.

"In an eye-opening article published this week by TV Guide, journalist Mark Lasswell reveals that the creative team behind the upcoming docudrama 'Hitler: The Rise of Evil' believes their story is important because it might open our eyes to America's rapid descent into totalitarian terror."

"When CBS first announced it was going to air this miniseries, there were substantive protests from Jewish groups and Holocaust survivors that it might humanize Hitler. CBS took those complaints seriously enough to scrap the first teleplay and commission another.

"What they commissioned, it appears, is an act of slander against the president of the United States -- and by extension, toward the United States itself."

So today is Gernon's last day of work at Alliance Atlantis.

Those Canadians -- not a friendly bunch.

So, the producer has been black listed and fired and will probably never find work again........

Sound familiar???????

Anyone else watched the series?? It is on tonight,,,
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Old 05-20-2003, 12:34 PM
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Ya know, dh had the series on the other night, and after several minutes of it, I thought "hm - it's certainly TIMELY to have a series such as this on the air in this country, but good gawd, they're treating the character/person of Hitler with about as much subtlety as Dubya analyzing the reasons behind the latest terrorist attack on American interests ("they hate freedom and want to destroy it wherever it can be found!!!")." Ugh. Hitler was a monster, but even monsters have their human sides, as well as some complexity to their character. To acknowledge that is merely to acknowledge that the person was, in fact, human, rather than, say, merely a shell in which pure evil resided or something else of the sort.

Ok, I'm babbling. Back to planning for my clinic.
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Old 05-20-2003, 02:20 PM
 
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Doesn't say he was blacklisted. Says he was fired.

And Michael Moore, Susan Sarandon and Tim Robbins are hardly among the terminally unemployed.

For the record, I find the Bush=Hitler comparison absurd.

Bush has never ever written a book detailing racist racialist theories, nor has he ever ever advocated removing whole segments of society from the "volk." Nor has he ever suggested that entire ethnic groups or racial groups are the cause of all that is ill in the world.

Hitler did all of the above, and more, before he was elected to anything.

Maybe America's being duped into foregoing civil rights, etc., just maybe. But Bush is not a little man filled with hate who wants to share his hate with the world.

A little man, maybe, but filled with hate ... no.
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Old 05-20-2003, 02:48 PM
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Just because he may not be filled with hatred for and a preoccupation with ridding the world of one or more races, creeds or other groups does not mean that Bush (et al.) is therefore not capable of causing a horrifying social and political transformation in this country on a grand scale. Don't make the mistake of thinking that history must repeat itself verbatim.
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Old 05-20-2003, 03:03 PM
 
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Quote:
... by Marlena
Just because he may not be filled with hatred for and a preoccupation with ridding the world of one or more races, creeds or other groups does not mean that Bush (et al.) is therefore not capable of causing a horrifying social and political transformation in this country on a grand scale. Don't make the mistake of thinking that history must repeat itself verbatim.
A good point.

I stand out-pointed.



But still ... though I don't love him and would rather have my arm broken than vote for him ... don't see the analogy as valid. And feel strongly that the ... well, the absurdity of the analogy dilutes the strength of the arguments against him.
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Old 05-20-2003, 03:08 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Marlena
Just because he may not be filled with hatred for and a preoccupation with ridding the world of one or more races, creeds or other groups does not mean that Bush (et al.) is therefore not capable of causing a horrifying social and political transformation in this country on a grand scale. Don't make the mistake of thinking that history must repeat itself verbatim.
True that, but if that's the case maybe we should look at this as its own entity, rather that cheapen the horror of Hitler's regime by equating anything close to it for the real thing.

Personally, I find the Bush administration *less* physically dangerous, but far *more* powerful and ideologically dangerous. When people toss out 'Hitler' comparisons like beads at Mardi Gras, it makes people more comfortable, because they can look at it and say "Uh...America is NOT Nazi Germany. The people saying this are crazy/extreme/hateful/ect." It breeds complacency.

You know, the policies of this administration don't need superfluous window dressing to make them seem sinister. And comparing ANYTHING to Hitler has become a huge joke. I don't find anything remotely funny about Ashcroft or Rumsfeld. As it is, when I talk to people about why, I have to cut through tons of resistance because people automatically assume I'm going to play the Hitler card.

I don't know why people think that the Hitler comparison makes folks "wake up" or think something is more dangerous. It's so damn overused (another sad fact in and of itself) that it automatically hits the "ignore" button in people.

Why can't this administration be dangerous on its own merit? Is there any compelling reason for the hard-on that a lot of people seem to have to compare it to the Nazis? Does this comparison really accomplish anything? Or does it just get in the way? Look how much of a joke it's become. Soup Nazi. FemiNazi. Breastfeeding Nazis. Spare me. Few people are going to interpret Hitler and/or Nazis in the historical sense, because in general they've become synonymous with "rude people who want me to do something I don't wanna." Now, we can rant and preach to the choir about how this shouldn't be so...but it doesn't change the fact that it is! I am absolutely horrified at how watered down it's become.

My experience is that Hitlertalk shuts minds to conversation. When I bring up the article by the American Assn. of Criminal Defense Lawyers on why they feel the military tribunals and the holding of American citizens and legal residents is very dangerous (not to mention unconstitutional)...they are all ears. When I show them Patriot 1 and 2, they are all ears. Then they get angry, and start looking at the spin coming out of the White House with more suspicion. If I were to immediately launch into a Nazi or Bush Is Hitler speech, they would roll their eyes and turn away. We don't need to give Bush a little mustache. The here and now is bad enough. And considering how many people in this country learn and/or appreciate world history, probably it's a GOOD thing that the administration's actions speak for themselves.
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Old 05-20-2003, 03:22 PM
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True, Tigerchild. There was a good rule on a former discussion site of which I was a member, stating that, once someone made a comparison to Hitler, the discussion was over. Effectively, it was true - once one gets to the point of comparing something to the Third Reich, one's usually just spouting off ("yah, you extremist! fascist! bigot! a$$hole! You're just like Hitler, you turd!" :grunt _butt) rather than contributing to intelligent discussion.

I suspect in the case of the Bush administration, one can actually start making some reasoned, intelligent comparison in CERTAIN regards (mostly those that might hold true for any bona fide fascist regime, and are therefore not necessarily particular to Nazi Germany). Dunno if it's sensible to do so, though, for the types of reasons you cited.
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Old 05-20-2003, 03:25 PM
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Er, that's supposed to be a "scratch butt" emoticon, not a head scratching one! Where's that butt-scratching emoticon when you need it??
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Old 05-20-2003, 03:29 PM
 
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I agree. Comparing nasty people with Hitler has gotten way out of hand. The only other people from recent history that can reasonably be compared to Hitler are Stalin, Mao and perhaps Pol Pot. Neither George Bush, nor Saddam Hussein, for that matter, can be seriously compared with Hitler.

Nevertheless, fear is a great motivator, and the current administration has proven to be very deft in its use of fear to accomplish its objectives. The Nazi regime was also very good at using propaganda, but propoganda has been used effectively by many regimes besides the Nazis, they didn't hold the patent on it.
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Old 05-20-2003, 05:28 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Marlena
True, Tigerchild. There was a good rule on a former discussion site of which I was a member, stating that, once someone made a comparison to Hitler, the discussion was over.
I know what you're talking about! There is even a name for it. "Something"'s Law, but...of course, I can't for the life of me remember it.

All the misuse sucks, because like you and Mr. Hilary have both said, even when certain elements apply, it's hard to use the comparison and be taken seriously.

HB brings up a somewhat disturbing thought for me though. He reminds me that really...Hitler and his Nazi Party, as much as I would like to believe them to be uniquely evil, were most definitely NOT. Maybe they were unique in combination of elements...but everything, I'm pretty sure, has been done before. :/ Maybe not all at once...and sometimes probably WORSE.

There's a scratching-butt emoticon? Wow, I really want to see that one! Although depending on the person, head...butt...sometimes small difference.
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Old 05-20-2003, 06:45 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Marg of Arabia
"When CBS first announced it was going to air this miniseries, there were substantive protests from Jewish groups and Holocaust survivors that it might humanize Hitler.
Excuse me? Hitler WAS a human being!! If we expect the next Hitler to be some inhuman demon we wouldn't recognize him if he came up and bit us in the a$$!
Quote:
"What they commissioned, it appears, is an act of slander against the president of the United States -- and by extension, toward the United States itself."
Rudolf Hess, "The Party is Hitler! Hitler, however IS GERMANY, just as Germany is Hitler!"
:Puke
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Old 05-20-2003, 06:58 PM
 
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I reacted to the article then read the rest of the posts. I'd just like to add that the fact that the US seems to be so cocky about them never falling for a Hitler like those _________(stupid? warring? fill in the blank) Germans did, make them all the more suseptible - and when there are some signs in that direction, it is fair to call a flag on it. HB & Amy are right in that GDB doesn't compare fairly with Hitler - Hitler was much brighter and hateful and manipulative. That doesn't mean that there is nothing to fear from this administration and manipulative conservative media moguls who sound like National Socialists.
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Old 05-20-2003, 08:07 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Hi!! I am writing from work and I am very distracted.

Amy this is really an opinion of mine:

"blacklist noun [C]
a list of people, countries, etc. who are considered by a particular authority or group to be unacceptable and who should be avoided and not trusted"

I would say that from what I have read in the Times, T.V. Guide and from the comments I have heard coming from his former employers, he is being black listed.......


And, Tigerchild, I did not compare him to Hitler. That is what they are calling his idea in this article. I wanted to draw attention to the comparison of his foriegn policies to Hitler's. I thought your post was very well written and you have good points. I know what you are saying about the sensationalistic use of Hitler/Nazi words.

I do agree with Gernon about his comparison of where this country is headed. I do not think that Gernon was saying that Hitler and Bush were the same in every way. I think he made it clear as to how they are similar.




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Old 05-21-2003, 01:00 AM
 
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It is an overblown comparison, but there are some real similarities.

Ashcroft has also been quoted as saying we should be allright with giving up some civil rights to protect our security. Ben Franklin said anyone who would trade their liberty for security doesn't deserve liberty.

I think this administration is hyperbolic in trying to scare us into believing it is okay to suspend the Constitution in favor of Patriot I and II, where our govt. can imprison without charges, habeas corpus, indefinitely and deny the right to counsel.

During the period of fiercest battle, anyone criticizing the war was called unpatriotic. Americans were believing they were about to be attacked with WMD at any moment from Hussien, and many were confused into believing he had something to do with 9/11.

Overall, I think the program is a welcome reminder that we must be at least as diligent about our leaders as foreign leaders.
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Old 05-21-2003, 02:54 AM
 
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I hear they got you guys on level ORANGE over there. "Long live the terror!! It keeps the leader inpower! And the stocks go a tumpling down!
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Old 05-21-2003, 05:16 AM
 
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I don't think Bush is a new Hitler. I think he's more like Nero except for all the happy fun sex stuff.

I think Bush will be the death of US culture and credibility and even power. I think that what he's done to the Middle East is not unlike sending Christians to the lions. Has the man even *been* to the Middle East yet, or met the the Arab League?

All in all, I am ashamed to be an American right now.
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Old 05-21-2003, 08:12 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by El Casey S
I hear they got you guys on level ORANGE over there. "Long live the terror!! It keeps the leader inpower! And the stocks go a tumpling down!
This entire 'alert level' thing is power trip Bush is on (IMO of course). Keep us in 'fear' and we'll do what he wants us to.

I don't like to compare Bush to Hitler, but understand the analogy. Hitler was actually able to think for himself. Bush doesn't seem to be able to do that :
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Old 05-21-2003, 01:09 PM
 
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LKCS, the concern about "humanizing" Hitler I believe has to do with the concern that he might be portrayed as a sympathetic character. You know, "he was abused as a child, so he felt the need to massacre millions," genocidal-dictator-as-victim kind of stuff.

El'McK'n, Bush has connections in the Middle East from way back, as an oil man. And I know when he was running for president he traveled in the Middle East. I've seen the photographs. And before you ask, I voted for Gore.
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Old 05-21-2003, 02:27 PM
 
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This is the Bush = Hitler thread, NM. Did you mean to post the above on the "orange alert" thread???
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Old 05-21-2003, 02:55 PM
 
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As much as I despise Bush, I don't see the terror alert level being raised as a power trip because there have been some real attacks over the last two weeks. The only problem I have with the terror alert program is that there are still major holes in our security and everyone knows about them but the govt. won't do anything to fill in the gaps, or release federal funds so the state and local govts. don't have to foot the entire bill. Bush and company have pushed enough expenses down to the states' level, IMO.
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Old 05-21-2003, 04:08 PM
 
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I guess I swayed OT on this one too - sorry!

I'll respond to NM quickly though. You have so many valid points. I do understand where you're coming from and respect you for it.

I just have very little trust in our government at this time. Especially Bush. Again this is my personal opinion and I do respect opposing opinions.

Back to the Hitler/Bush analogy. I do think we're afraid to humanize Hitler. It's easier to say he was some evil being sent from hell then to admit he was a human.

As for Bush though, I just don't see the comparison. I see him as more a follower than a leader.
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Old 05-21-2003, 05:25 PM
 
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I think one could compare in some (not all) ways, the present administration to the Third Reich (the Bush=Hitler comparison has too many flaws) - because of the nationalism, the extremism - the manipulation - the fear . . . and I don't think we got off topic so much with the Orange alert because fear is one of the major manipulative tools used by the Nazis. What DO the people think they can do MORE while on ORANGE ALERT? I mean, they are, I'm sure, already watching all the time. And if something DID happen, do you really think the average Josephine is going to say, "Gee, if only the government had told me - I would have stopped him!!" Super Ami!
Amy - I don't think anyone could ever put a nice rep on Hitler - he was an evil evil person - but don't you think that knowing the causes would help spot and prevent future catastrophies? He was an abused poor victim of a sick social system - which is why so many could relate to him - and why the social structure had to change after the War so such poisons wouldn't be poured into future generations of German souls. Having this built up hatred for a blurry image of a soul does nothing in helping one to get over the effects of the abuse or prevention. Seeing the whole of an abusive person as best one can gives power to the abused. This is not to be seen as any kind of attack on your post, I'm just going off on this a bit perhaps more to sort out my own thoughts.
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Old 05-21-2003, 07:21 PM
 
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I have never felt that the Bush/Hitler comparison was one of a personal level, I always saw it on a regime level. Bush couldn't hold a birthday candle to the hypnotism of Hilter.

But, the sweeping of legal changes, the disdain for popular opinion, and all the rest done in just 2 short years.....................well, that gives me great pause for comparison.



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Old 05-21-2003, 09:41 PM
 
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LKCS, not feeling attacked at all ...

I guess the problem I have in the "humanizing" Hitler is that it ignores the rest of the population.

Meaning, that no matter how charismatic, how diabolical, one man doesn't massacre millions alone. Okay, Eichmann makes two. But his banality is documented. Two don't succeed in such evil.

An entire population of people perpetrated this (no, I do mean all the Germans. Germany read Goldhagen and accepted his premise en masse. As do I.)

Anyway, not to go too OT. Bush is a lesser leader than Hitler. And Americans are lesser ... racialists ... than the Germans and their neighbors of 60 years ago.

Really. I do believe that it can't happen here.

Well, I hope so, anyway.

Okay, I pray a lot.

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Old 05-21-2003, 10:07 PM
 
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I might agree, on the whole, we are less "racialists". We are, after all, a melting pot. Many stubborn pockets of resistance racially, tho.

But, we damn sure are "classists" And it is the poor that I fear for the most...........


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