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#61 of 124 Old 02-14-2002, 11:33 PM
 
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hmmm......I wonder why our marriage isn't on the rocks?

My husband cleans the bathroom more often that I do and the rest of the house usually looks like a cyclone (of kids and animals) has just run through it!

And I don't even own a french maid outfit.
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#62 of 124 Old 02-14-2002, 11:41 PM
 
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Oceanmama, saranwrap the one of the brandnames of that clear plastic/cellophane stuff that you wrap over the top of bowls, and leftovers and stuff to keep them fresh.
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#63 of 124 Old 02-15-2002, 02:03 AM
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"but a couple who choose to have a child and then both work full time are not parenting. Why have children if you are not going to raise them?"

This issue always gets a rise out of me. I guess the bottom line here is that only those families who can afford to have a parent stay home should be allowed to have children. Hmmm....
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#64 of 124 Old 02-15-2002, 02:06 AM
 
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I personally have done the saran wrap thing twice, in public. It DOES get attention, just ask Marg. Anyone who wants to get their husband's attention should try it.
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#65 of 124 Old 02-15-2002, 02:13 AM - Thread Starter
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You will not believe me, but I swear, I have done the saran wrap thing in public too. It was yellow saran wrap and I had a red bell pepper over my right breast and pieces of plexiglass to make parts of me look more square. I then recited poetry. Part of an art show. Strange but true, and since it was summer in Las Vegas, the steam rose off me when the plastic was removed.

Yeah, it did get attention! I have this on video....
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#66 of 124 Old 02-15-2002, 09:43 AM
 
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Now THAT, Ms Pie I would want to see! (OK not really!)
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#67 of 124 Old 02-15-2002, 10:56 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by cat
"but a couple who choose to have a child and then both work full time are not parenting. Why have children if you are not going to raise them?"

This issue always gets a rise out of me. I guess the bottom line here is that only those families who can afford to have a parent stay home should be allowed to have children. Hmmm....
Cat, I know this is not a serious statement but one designed to help others realize the lunacy of their position, but I wanted to add something. I guess that all widows and women who were left by their husbands for other women who now have to go to work to support their kids aren't parents anymore.

Sorry ladies. I think that putting others down for their parenting choices is just evil. I think that it is spawned from jealousy and insecurity. I do not judge ANY of you for how you choose to raise your kids as long as you love your kids and do your best. I am frankly disgusted to the point of tears (yes, this thread has made me cry for the first time since I came to mothering) at the misogynistic attitudes towards women who are trying to do what is best for themselves and their families. I hope you all don't suffer the death of a spouse or divorce, but if you do perhaps then you will realize that there is more than one way to be a good parent.

I am taking this VERY personally, but sorry, you can't say wohm's aren't parents and don't raise their kids and not mean me. I did woh for the first 7 1/2 years of ds's life.

I don't need any of you to tell me that I am, and have been since the day ds was conceived, a mother, and more than that a GREAT mother. I only have to look at the wonderful son that I have raised and the love that he has for me. I am saddened by so many narrow viewpoints on what it means to be a mother but I won't waste any more of my energy trying to convince you. All I ask is that you think about the fact that you don't really know what is in anyone's heart but your own. You cannot truly know what any other woman here or IRL goes through or struggles with. For those of you that are Christians, please reread Christ's words and check out a book called Joshua by Joseph Girzone. I think you will find it enlightening.

P.S. NM, I am PMing you.

edited to pluralize a noun
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#68 of 124 Old 02-15-2002, 11:11 AM
 
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laralou,
I am so sorry this thread upset you so much. I just read over it again and the only one who said that mama's should stay home with their children or not have any was natural mama.
I don' think any of us agree with that. I have worked and I have stayed home at different times in my "mothering" career, I felt like a very good Mom doing either.


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#69 of 124 Old 02-15-2002, 11:16 AM
 
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NM, I tried to PM you but your box is full. I would like to talk to you privately if possible, so if you could clear out your box, I would appreciate it.

Thanks, NM.
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#70 of 124 Old 02-15-2002, 11:29 AM
 
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Thanks, peggy! I know I shouldn't let it make me cry but I am premenstrual anyway.

I know it was only naturalmama was the only one who was open with her opinion that a wohm is not a real mom. However, that message was extremely clear in every article on that site. There were 2-3 others who said they didn't have any problems with the articles, most notably, NM. I was just really disappointed that someone whom I had really liked from her previous posts would support that message.
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#71 of 124 Old 02-15-2002, 11:54 AM
 
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Just got this little story from a Canadian friend. I enjoyed it and I think it belongs on this thread:









Moms

I'm Just a Mother? - Excuse Me!!! A few months ago, when I was picking
up the children at school, another mother I knew well rushed up to me.
She was fuming with indignation.

"Do you know what you and I are?" she demanded. Before I could answer and I
didn't really have one handy...she blurted out the reason for her question.
It seems she had just returned from renewing her driver's license at The
County Clerk's office. Asked by the woman recorder to state her occupation,
Emily had hesitated, uncertain how to classify herself.

"What I mean is," explained the recorder, "do you have a job, or are
you just . . ."

"Of course I have a job," snapped Emily. "I'm a mother."

"We don't list 'mother' as an occupation...'housewife' covers it," said
the recorder emphatically.

I forgot all about her story until one day I found myself in the same
situation, this time at our own Town Hall. The clerk was obviously a career
woman, poised, efficient, and possessed of a high-sounding title like
"Official Interrogator" or "Town Registrar."

"What is your occupation?" she probed.

What made me say it, I do not know. The words simply popped out. "I'm
a Research Associate in the field of Child Development and Human
Relations." The clerk paused, ball-point pen frozen in midair and looked up
as though she had not heard right. I repeated the title slowly, emphasizing
the most significant words. Then I stared with wonder as my pronouncement
was written in bold, black ink on the official questionnaire.

"Might I ask," said the clerk with new interest, "just what you do in
your field?"

Coolly, without any trace of fluster in my voice, I heard myself
reply, "I have a continuing program of research (what mother doesn't)
in the laboratory and in the field (normally I would have said indoors
and out). I'm working for my Masters (the whole damned family) and already
have four credits (all daughters). "Of course, the job is one of the most
demanding in the humanities" (any mother care to disagree?) and I often work
14 hours a day (24 is more like it). But the job is more challenging than
most run-of-the-mill careers and the rewards are more of a satisfaction
rather than just money ."

There was an increasing note of respect in the clerk's voice as she
completed the form, stood up, and personally ushered me to the door.

As I drove into our driveway, buoyed up by my glamorous new career, I
was greeted by my lab assistants- ages 13, 7, and 3. Upstairs I could hear
our new experimental model (6 months) in the child-development program,
testing out a new vocal pattern.

I felt triumphant! I had scored a beat on bureaucracy! And I had gone on the
official records as someone more distinguished and indispensable to mankind
than "just another mother."

Motherhood...what a glorious career.
Especially when there's a title on the door.

Send this to another mother you know. Whether a stay at home Mom
or a career Mom, we should all carry this title.

Does this make grandmothers "Senior Research Associates in the field of
Child Development and Human Relations" and great grandmothers "Executive
Senior Research Associates?"

I think so!!!







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#72 of 124 Old 02-15-2002, 01:03 PM
 
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Love it - Marg!

Laralou - I was pissed too, I have to say natural mama's comments specifically hurt me too (since I appear to be the representative wohm in this discussion) and I was in sort of a bubbly rage all day yesterday. Sometimes it seems like we can never do enough whichever side of the fence we happen to be on. I hope you're comforted (as I am) by the fact that most everybody here has always been super supportive and understands that life and motherhood come in all shapes & sizes. Mostly folks here give us the benefit of the doubt that we are trying our darnedest to be the best people & moms & parents we can be regardless of our situations.
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#73 of 124 Old 02-15-2002, 01:12 PM - Thread Starter
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I feel badly, Laralou and pina, that you were hurt. I do. Just keep fighting the good fight. And remember, the Taliban didn't think women should work, either.
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#74 of 124 Old 02-15-2002, 01:20 PM
 
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Oh pina and laralou, I know you are fabulous mommies....please don't be sad....

As mamapie stated, if all mommies up and a quit their jobs our economy would collapse...

For myself, I know that staying home with dd is a privilige that I have and that soooo many other mommies want to be home but can't....this is why I support any and all improvements in day care programs (increased wages, access, etc.)

M of A..
I just completed info for my tax return and it asked my "occupation"...this is the first year I have been home....I wrote down "domestic goddess"..next year I think I will write
"Research Associate in the field of Child Development and Human Relations." BTW, do you have a link for that because I would like to email it to friends....
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#75 of 124 Old 02-15-2002, 01:32 PM
 
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Thanks, pina, mamapie, and Dierdre! It does help to know you all are so supportive.

I am grateful to be home with ds but I do miss working a lot. I think it is a valid point also that ds went to work with me almost all summer long (don't tell my boss) and whenever I had to work Saturdays and after-hours (this part she knows), so ds got great lessons in what important things I was doing while I worked. He met lots and lots of hospice patients and knew that when I left him, it was to go help some people who were hurting and dying. He was very proud of mom. He used to sit in the nursing home lobbies when I would meet with a family and talk to the residents. My funniest story was when ds was talking to this lady when I came to get him to go home. I heard her say to another resident when we were leaving that she was talking to that boy because she thought he was really lonely. When we go into the car, I asked ds who he was talking to and he said, "I was talking to this lady 'cause I thought she was lonely." Neither one of them heard each other but had the same altruistic thought in their heads. We do still volunteer so we get some of this.

That all said, I loved your post, Marg!

Thanks for bearing with me. I am really struggling with my importance right now, not to ds and dh because I know I mean the world to them, but I just thought I would have done more remarkable things in the world by now. When I was growing up I was such a crusader and now I am feeling a little stagnated by the busiwork of being a housewife (you know, I am more than a cook and a maid!).
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#76 of 124 Old 02-15-2002, 01:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Volunteering a few hours a week does wonders for that, Laralou. Just a thought.
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#77 of 124 Old 02-15-2002, 01:50 PM
 
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We do. We just have to start over every time we move. We should be starting here next week if they have found us a patient. We just got here on the 27th of January. It takes so much time to find everything every time we move, like homeschool groups, the library, grocery, post office etc. Plus just getting used to the area as we find our way around...

Anyhow, I don't want to derail the topic to "poor Lara got her feeling hurt." I am really ok. This is just a really sensitve topic with me and I forgot to get offline for a bit before I posted, like I recommended on another hot thread.
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#78 of 124 Old 02-15-2002, 02:13 PM
 
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Thanks piepie, all is well, I'm not seething today, and I love "activism" - it all make me think and clarify and try to understand things outside my usual world.

Laralou - I was so glad you posted because I thought it was just me feeling criticized, I think its good that we give folks something to think about. Its sort of like "well if you think that X behavior isn't right, then you are talking about me!"

I think we all need to have our assumptions challenged, and have voices and personalities behind certain types of behavior or else its easy to just live your life thinking that all homosexuals, republicans, or whatever are evil. Thats why we love NM so much! (because she's evil! - no I'm just kidding!) Because she shows us a real caring human being who goes against much of what seems to be the "norm" here. Also Yammer, but he's actually evil.
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#79 of 124 Old 02-15-2002, 02:17 PM - Thread Starter
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NM is a conservative right wing Christian but is also so very open-minded and even liberal in many of her views. She is so live and let live, and supportive.

edited to say: I don't think she really truly agrees with the tone of these articles.
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#80 of 124 Old 02-15-2002, 03:03 PM
 
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Deirdre,

Just select all, copy and paste it into your e mails!! That is what I did!!!
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#81 of 124 Old 02-15-2002, 08:16 PM
 
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Okay, I'm going to actually comment on the magazine (I think everyone else on this thread has long since moved on, but I wanted to make a point I didn't see anyone else making.)

This is not a magazine that has, for instance, Pina Para la Nina as a target audience This is definitely not a magazine that is trying to convince feminist, working mothers that they're bad people who should be barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen. It's a magazine that is trying to convince traditional, Christian mothers, the sorts of women who send checks to Phyllis Schlafley and feel that it's a sacred and godly calling to be barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen, that they should wear their babies, tandem nurse, and cosleep.

Though I'm not Christian, I lurk occasionally on a board for Christian AP mothers. (There are a number of Mothering.com moms who are regular posters.) If a secular AP mom feels that she's under pressure from society to put her baby in a crib, bottle-feed, and CIO, you have no IDEA what sorts of pressure church-going Christian mothers get from their communities. Many of the mothers on this other board have posted about how every other parent at their church does Ezzo. And, it's not surprising, when you realize that Ezzo's original program was called "Growing Kids God's Way" and was emphatically Christian (Babywise is a secularized version). While Sears has written a book on Christian parenting, he doesn't have the entire pre-packaged set of classes, videos, etc. that GFI has. And more's the pity.

Although I find the attitudes in "Nurturing" magazine to be offputting (or even repulsive -- the "Cleaning Bathrooms" one drove me nuts!) I think we're missing the point when we condemn it out of hand. We should be celebrating the fact that socially conservative, fundamentalist Christian mommies are discovering attachment parenting!!! Not complaining because there are socially conservative, fundamentalist Christian mommies out there
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#82 of 124 Old 02-15-2002, 08:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Live and let live but in the name of AP Christain mommies there was indication that I as a feminist and believer in gay rights am somehow wrong. Sorry, sick baby and unclear point. Do you see waht I mean? Fine, if cleaning the house alone brings one fulfillment. Don't criticize the feminist movement for expecting more out of life is how I feel about this magazine.
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#83 of 124 Old 02-15-2002, 08:44 PM
 
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"This is definitely not a magazine that is trying to convince feminist, working mothers that they're bad people who should be barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen. It's a magazine that is trying to convince traditional, Christian mothers, the sorts of women who send checks to Phyllis Schlafley and feel that it's a sacred and godly calling to be barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen, that they should wear their babies, tandem nurse, and cosleep."



I think that is a very good point.

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#84 of 124 Old 02-15-2002, 08:45 PM
 
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I am all for the message that "sahms are great" but the underlying message is that "we are great because we are better than those evil working mommies." Sorry but teaching superiority isn't positive no matter what. The only decent AP article was the extended bf one. I don't think teaching Christian women to judge others and hold themselves as superior because they don't work is worth it. Let's just send them Mothering which teaches extended bfing and tolerance towards others.

That being said, I can't stay here and keep repeating myself. There is always going to be someone to disagree with me, no matter how scintillatingly persuasive my arguments, besides we are going out of town this weekend. So ya'll keep it up but I gotta go.

And NM, THANKS so much for saying publicly that you think wohms are okay. Even if you don't see what I think is glaringly obvious, that is all I really wanted to hear.
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#85 of 124 Old 02-15-2002, 09:06 PM
 
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Oh, I forgot to say...

peggy, I got some books at the library that I am going to try to read this weekend, so I'll be ready for a pre-nuclear-family debate next week. Unless I find out that you are right of course...
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#86 of 124 Old 02-15-2002, 09:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nursing Mother
Also I never thought I said that working mothers were not O.K.: did I really say that???
No, NM, you just said you liked "Mommy Wars" which had a very "working-moms-are-bad" tone. ******Please******, reread the article. Look for the reference to leaving your kid at day-care being the same as putting them in an orphanage.

This has got to be my final word, okay? If I don't go pack now, dh is going to leave me and then I'll have to go back to being one of those *evil* wohms!
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#87 of 124 Old 02-16-2002, 01:42 PM
 
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well put Naomi!
Maybe some of you don't realize that most christian mommies are working moms. This is not a working mom againest sahm issue. It is not a christian mom againest feminist issue. I think it comes down to a mommy issue and supporting good mothering in whatever form it comes it.
Bashing working moms won't help those moms be the best they can and it wont' help the sahm to feel better about herself either. So CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?!
I'm concerned about the christian bashing I'm hearing. I'm also concerned about feminist bashing coming from the magazine articles. But if we are quick to take offence to what we hear instead of finding common ground there won't be anyone to encourage AP because we will all just be fighting amongst ourselves.
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#88 of 124 Old 02-16-2002, 03:09 PM - Thread Starter
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I for one am not bashing Christianity. At all. I am bashing the content of Nurturing Magazine. I think the content and tone of that magazine is as judgemental and un-Christlike as it can be.

Just my opinion. And yes, it is a judgemental one.

edited to say: Barbara, you made some excellent points about mamas supporting one another. I would gladly support a reader of Nurturing if she needed it, even if she wholeheartedly believed in that way of life. Fine.

But would she support feminist me, SAHM though I am? Or God forbid my mama comrades that are GAY and work aoutside the home? No... and that is where the hypocrisy of the situation lies.
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#89 of 124 Old 02-16-2002, 05:04 PM
 
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I said earlier that I agreed with NM's FIRST post, and I do. I read two articles (I didn't read Mommy Wars) and liked and agreed with most of what they had to say. I think I see the same basic information, but seen through a different lens, perhaps, than some of you. I also read them rather hastily, so I may have missed some fine points that were glaringly obvious to others. This said, I am a Christian (mostly) AP mommy who is very happy to work outside the home (and a little in it too) and put my son in a wonderful daycare every day of the week. Although there are times that I want to stay at home all the time with him, I truly think I would go nuts if I did. I cloth diaper half time, buy half organic and half supermarket brand, breastfeed my 27month old, don't spank (in a country where over half the population will admit to doing so!), wore my child in a sling, and I'm hoping to have a natural VBAC with my next child. I also love my daycare, hate to cook, and don't do housework unless I have company coming over (I am married to a saint who is a French chef and actually likes to clean and even change diapers!).

I really agree with Naomi---
"We should be celebrating the fact that socially conservative, fundamentalist Christian mommies are discovering attachment parenting!!! Not complaining because there are socially conservative, fundamentalist Christian mommies out there "

When I go back to the States, I would hope I wouldn't be quite the wierdo I am here!! I hope someday I'll be a wierdo because I don't like to cook, and that's it!!

Michelle
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#90 of 124 Old 02-16-2002, 05:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Sorry, last post here from me: they should not be complaining that I am out here.
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