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#1 of 35 Old 06-30-2003, 01:35 PM - Thread Starter
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One of the pro-Bush posters in a pro-Bush thread wrote about defending the US from "America-hating terrorists."

For those who assume that such "America-hating terrorists" exist, why do you believe they hate America?
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#2 of 35 Old 06-30-2003, 02:59 PM
 
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A thought-provoking question, Marlena. I hope to see it answered. Try to look into the minds of others...hmmm.

As an America-loving Muslim, I find this especially interesting.
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#3 of 35 Old 06-30-2003, 10:49 PM
 
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#4 of 35 Old 07-01-2003, 12:42 AM - Thread Starter
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No no no, Ilaria, I'm looking for a more down-home perspective, so to speak. I want to know the opinion of those who might nod nod nod while listening to Bush wax on about terrorists and their hatred of America. I can understand Blum's perspective (at least what I read of it). But I can't for the life of me, understand what resonance people find in the Bush perspective. I was hoping for some enlightenment.
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#5 of 35 Old 07-03-2003, 04:39 AM
 
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oh, come on, There has got to be a good answer. anyone?
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#6 of 35 Old 07-03-2003, 07:07 AM
 
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T No "good answer" here - just a comment that every time I read this I read "American-hating Tourists" and my brain just seems to get stuck there. Maybe electro shock will help . . . just an air head, me!

I do believe there are alot of American hating terrorists. I mean there are a lot of people who hate America (I'm dealing with my growing rage as best I can) and for some who have so little to lose and it seems like things are getting worse, it makes sense to take a "constructive" or rather "destructive" road with that rage. The question is - is facing rage with rage a constructive or destructive solution? Is saying, "Bring them on!" and adding greater violence to the mix a good solution? Not even to mention if it is faithful . . . does it make sense? Is yelling at a child having a tyrade a good solution?

Why are there so many people angry at the US? There are thousands of answers! My question is why aren't there more Americans angry at the policies that contribute to the rage? Why isn't it the policy of the US to deal with their international problems?

Nowadays my favorite phrase is, "Never underestimate the power of denial." Americans want to deny that THEY:

- have any part in the cause of other's rage, or any responsibility to deal with it in a fashion other than militarily
- may be very selfish in their consumption of life's resources and should possibly try to change their living styles
- are a waring nation
- have a lot of internal problems to deal with, not only the economic and social but also on the average living level - which is obvious when you see how many obese US Americans there are (I included)

Am I taking this off track? I mean one reason the US is hated is because they are so pompous and self centered, and really - until they take the log out of their own eye how CAN they see how they are effecting the rest of the world - but they would never admit to having a log in their eye, everyone is just suposed to think of it as perfectly normal eye wear . . .
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#7 of 35 Old 07-03-2003, 07:47 AM
 
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OK, this is NOT my opinion, but I suspect that this is the type of answer you were looking for:

"These American-hating terrorists hate us because we are free! They hate freedom and want everyone to live under the oppression that they experience. They hate Christians, and since the majority of Americans are Christian, they hate us. They say we are infiltrating their culture and destroying it, but don't they understand that the US is the BEST country in the world and that our products and businesses are the best and that if American businesses want to expand all over the globe, then they have every right to? Because WE are a FREE country and if they don't like that, then too bad. Besides, you'd think people would be grateful to get McDonald's and Coke in their countries. You're not civilized unless you've eaten a Big Mac at least once. Don't these people understand that if it weren't for the US, Hitler would have won WWII? We've brought FREEDOM and DEMOCRACY to lots of countries. Everyone should be GRATEFUL to us! There is no reason to hate us. It's just resentment and jealousy."


Again, not my opinion, but I suspect this is what plenty of Americans think.
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#8 of 35 Old 07-03-2003, 08:34 AM
 
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First off, I do not agree with Daylily's quoted post. Obviously it's meant to sound ignorant. But...

Actually, in several instances the Al Qaida literature states that they hate us because we are the infidel-- that we do not follow Islamic law, and it is their job to fight a holy war against the Christians. I understand that not all terrorists are Al Qaida members, and that the vast majority of Muslims (my friends included) do not believe this. But Osama Bin Laden does.

I'm also very confused about the culture / business thing. Yes, I agree that American culture is kind of "taking over" the world. But why is that? When the US builds a McDonalds in Moscow, the owners don't bring in customers at gunpoint. Yes, i know they use advertising, but it can't possibly be as blatant as in the US because Russians don't watch 38 hours of TV a week like we do. The bottom line is that Russian people are free to choose to buy or to *not* buy the food there. By exercising this freedom, they determine whether or not the American business will remain in business. So the Russians buy the hamburgers because they want to buy the hamburgers, and then they complain about how we're ruining their country? Shouldn't they have just not gone to McDonald's if they felt that way? Or shouldn't the government not given the permit to the McDonald's to open or be built? Aren't citzens of other countries grown ups who can make their own decisions? US businesses thrive in other countries because their citizens make economic choices-- is taking that choice away the answer? What is? I am not saying that we shouldn't be less agressive with business expansion or that it's *right* for other cultures to be destroyed/ evolved, but I so rarely see peole even examine the other side of this issue.

One last thing. My mom always taught me that two wrongs do not make a right. The US may make mistakes. Other countries may rightfully be angry with us. Doesn't matter. It doesn't give them the right to terrorism. Killing innocent citizens of another country *on purpose* is morally wrong as well as being against international law. There is no way you can convince me that a building like the World Trade Center would be a valid target in any war. I just don't understand a thread that appears to want us us to feel sympathy with the perpetrators of September 11th because we're so mean to them.
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#9 of 35 Old 07-03-2003, 09:01 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wendydagny
One last thing. My mom always taught me that two wrongs do not make a right. The US may make mistakes. Other countries may rightfully be angry with us. Doesn't matter. It doesn't give them the right to terrorism. Killing innocent citizens of another country *on purpose* is morally wrong as well as being against international law.
Aaaaannd...a terrorist attack on the US doesn't give us the right to bomb Afghanistan and take over Iraq, killing many innocent civilians on purpose. Goes both ways.
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#10 of 35 Old 07-03-2003, 09:18 AM
 
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Originally posted by CanOBeans
Aaaaannd...a terrorist attack on the US doesn't give us the right to bomb Afghanistan and take over Iraq, killing many innocent civilians on purpose. Goes both ways.
Did I say it did? In fact, I don't recall stating my stance on either "war." I just find it ironic that those against war appear to be embracing terrorists.

And finally, it's worth stating that in a war, civilians die, but are not targeted. It's horrible, and I am not defending it. But I think there is a clear difference between a civilian dying because he walked near a military target at the wrong time, and purposely attacking a civilian target.
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#11 of 35 Old 07-03-2003, 09:33 AM
 
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So the Russians buy the hamburgers because they want to buy the hamburgers, and then they complain about how we're ruining their country? Shouldn't they have just not gone to McDonald's if they felt that way? Or shouldn't the government not given the permit to the McDonald's to open or be built?
This IS a confusing part, Wendydagny (I know a little Dagny btw). But the pull is mysterious and strong. FOr example, when I was in Morocco, sometimes when we were in the capital to visit the Peace Corps office, some PCVs would hit the McD's for a Big Mac. The place was almost always full--and the cost of a meal there was twice what you would pay at the Sudanese Shawarma guy's place down the block (and guess whose food was better and better for you?)--and more than you'd pay for the same meal in my hometown McD's.

But they came. Single women would come and buy a Diet Coke, and sit, waiting to meet some man who could afford to take his lunch at McD's. Nouveau riche folks would do kiddie parties.

These are not the people who feel violated by America. It's the dichotomy--it's the other 95% of that population who would have to work three days to pay for the constipation caused by the Big Mac meal. It's the family of the beggar who is not allowed into McD's because they actually pay someone to guard the door--while every other restaurant allows beggars to come in and ask for coins or share your meal if you like. And it's the messages American corporations send that, along with the good and services, we are also importing our own culture and sense of morality (ex., beggars are not conducive to the diner's enjoyment of the meal so they will be stopped before they even approach the door)--regardless of how it may clash with certain traditions of a host culture.

I am not saying one is always right and another always wrong, but a whole lot more thought could go on and more sensitivity would go a long way, and begin such interaction on a more positive note.

Why do they keep coming for more? I guess we in the USA (and those who came before us) have done a good job instilling a strong sense of inferiority that can only be quenched by consumption. Along with my Liberal Air friend, I am guilty.
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#12 of 35 Old 07-03-2003, 09:55 AM
 
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by UmmNuh
I am not saying one is always right and another always wrong, but a whole lot more thought could go on and more sensitivity would go a long way, and begin such interaction on a more positive note.

I do agree, and I think that there are companies who do this much better. I only used McDonalds (which I don't eat at because it's a horrible company) because that's who was mentioned. I just don't think that companies are 100% responsible when people choose to buy their products.

Why do they keep coming for more? I guess we in the USA (and those who came before us) have done a good job instilling a strong sense of inferiority that can only be quenched by consumption. Along with my Liberal Air friend, I am guilty.

Ah...I think that sense of inferiority and the consumption cure have been around for much longer than the US, and will be here much longer than us.

That's cool you know a Dagny-- my dd is the only one I've ever met
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#13 of 35 Old 07-03-2003, 10:03 AM
 
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Actually, it's about much more than people choosing to patronise American companies. It's about what US corporations are doing to other countries. For example, Coca-Cola has a plant in India. From what I recall, this plant uses the clean water supply and there is no safe water for the residents of the community. When residents tried to protest, Coke hired thugs to beat them up. Enron *forced* a power plant on India. I'll have to search for some links to back up these stories, but I read about them first here.

Also, what about the way workers are treated by US corporations? Do you think the fact that thousands of people are paid a pittance to assemble our Nikes or our crappy plastic toys, so that we can fill our already bloated lives with them doesn't breed any resentment?

I'm not saying it's OK for terrorists to target innocent civilians. No one is saying that! I don't have "sympathy" for people who can cold-heartedly murder innocent people.

What I am saying is that some Americans seem to feel that we have no culpability, that everything that the US does is wonderful, simply because it's done by the US. Instead of getting defensive, we should be examining what we are doing to people in other countries.
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#14 of 35 Old 07-03-2003, 10:04 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wendydagny
I just find it ironic that those against war appear to be embracing terrorists.
Highly offensive. You're new here -- get to know the opinions here before you assume, please.

Quote:
And finally, it's worth stating that in a war, civilians die, but are not targeted. It's horrible, and I am not defending it. But I think there is a clear difference between a civilian dying because he walked near a military target at the wrong time, and purposely attacking a civilian target.
Untrue. Civilians were most definitely targeted in Iraq. Targeting of civilians in war has been an assumed part of war until this century.
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#15 of 35 Old 07-03-2003, 10:18 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wendydagny
Did I say it did? In fact, I don't recall stating my stance on either "war." I just find it ironic that those against war appear to be embracing terrorists.

And finally, it's worth stating that in a war, civilians die, but are not targeted. It's horrible, and I am not defending it. But I think there is a clear difference between a civilian dying because he walked near a military target at the wrong time, and purposely attacking a civilian target.
So three wrongs do make a right and rather than trying to correct the first wrong one should just pile it on? Jup, sounds like conservative USA to me!:

And as for appearing to embrace terrorists - appearances can be decieving, especially for those who don't want to face uncomfortable facts, you will interpret these things as you wish, regardless of the truth. There is much more at stake here than the simplistic, our side is right and those who have other points of view are for the enemy!
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#16 of 35 Old 07-03-2003, 10:44 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm glad this thread has started going, but sorry to see that there still hasn't been much of the sort of answer I was seeking initially, at least from the folks who actually believe the answer.

Quote:
Did I say it did? In fact, I don't recall stating my stance on either "war." I just find it ironic that those against war appear to be embracing terrorists.
Perhaps you could explain this statement. Please be detailed. As it stands, the statement is not merely absurd, but also highly offensive.

Quote:
Actually, in several instances the Al Qaida literature states that they hate us because we are the infidel-- that we do not follow Islamic law, and it is their job to fight a holy war against the Christians. I understand that not all terrorists are Al Qaida members, and that the vast majority of Muslims (my friends included) do not believe this. But Osama Bin Laden does.
This is only incidental to Al Qaida's position as I understand it. If we were respectful of other nations' sovereignity (particularly in the Middle East) and didn't go swinging our brute weight around and looking for trouble, we'd not likely be risking Al Qaida's ire. You don't see them targeting South Africa or Chile or India, do you?

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I just don't understand a thread that appears to want us us to feel sympathy with the perpetrators of September 11th because we're so mean to them.
Which thread is that?
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#17 of 35 Old 07-03-2003, 11:19 AM
 
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BTW, I'm not a newbie. I have been reading here for six months or so, pretty regularly. I'm just not a heavy poster since I have three kids under three.

I'm sorry if I offended with my comment. *I* was offended by the assumption that I supported the "wars" when I never mentioned them.

No, not one person said they loved terrorists or thought what happened here was wonderful.

Look at it this way, though, if *I* were here trying to "justify" Bush's actions or the military actions in Afghanistan or Iraq, I would be jumped on for "supporting" them. In fact, it's been assumed I support them, based on the few conservative comments I made. I actually *don't.* I'm sorry that I applied reverse logic here, and I won't do it again. (Not said sarcastically).

One of the reasons I *don't* is because of the targeting of civilians in the recent "wars." I think that is wrong, and it defies UN guidelines and the Geneva convention. However, in general, "legal" wars are fought with military targets in mind, and terrorism is waged on civilian targets. That is all I was trying to say.

I also only mentioned Al Qaida's stance in response to the comment that it's silly to say that people hate the US because it's free and Christian. Yes, I know that this position is a tertiary one, but it's still in their literature.

I thought the discussion about culture and US companies was interesting and useful, but I think I'll just go play with my kids now.

I honestly am sorry if I offended anyone. It seems like a conservative can't win here.
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#18 of 35 Old 07-03-2003, 12:05 PM
 
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It seems like a conservative can't win here.
Is this a game? To be won or lost?

I think many of us come here to share and learn. I think I understand conservatives a little better thanks to those of you that come to do the same. Do you not understand us a little better?

I don't think you intended to offend ---- but please understand we are tired of hearing that we support terrorists bcuz we disagree with the US admin. We hear it *all* the time via the media, KWIM?

FWIW (I know you're not looking for this Marlena) , I think "American-hating terrorists" is a chimera put out by the admin and echoed by the right. It isn't all about us (but we should look hard at our footprint around the globe), it's about hate and power. Sounds like what fuels our admin currently, doesn't it?

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#19 of 35 Old 07-03-2003, 12:05 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wendydagny
It seems like a conservative can't win here.
Ah, but winning is also deceptive and illusionary - that the exchange of thoughts is a competition that is to be won or lost, and that there is only one right and wrong is also a typical competitive response of a isolationist way of living . . . that a conservative would avoid facing surrounding facts is, in my experience, also typical. To focus the answer on one dot of information and avoid dealing with the rest of the facts surrounding the issue is also typical. Maybe conservatives can't "win" here because they are wrong!
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#20 of 35 Old 07-03-2003, 12:06 PM
 
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LKCS - we are becoming a tag team!
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#21 of 35 Old 07-03-2003, 12:09 PM
 
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Yes, you Els need to be careful--I am about to be confused.
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#22 of 35 Old 07-03-2003, 12:15 PM
 
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UmmNuh - do you really want to get stuck between us? Besides, I'm confused about something all the time!

El's the first, I'd love to tag along with you IRL for at least a day!!!

Apologies for T, you may now resume your regularly scheduled thread . . . .
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#23 of 35 Old 07-03-2003, 12:44 PM - Thread Starter
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I'd really like to know whether folks genuinely believe the Bush line that daylily paraphrased, but I don't think we're going to get any answers here, unfortunately. Wendy noted that the paraphrase that daylily provided was too ignorant in her opinion, but didn't provide much as an alternative, other than the "infidel" issue (which she also said was peripheral). I think what others have written, particularly El Casey S, is much more on target re why terrorists (among others) "hate" America (or look down upon it, or find its actions unlivable, or what have you).
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#24 of 35 Old 07-03-2003, 01:08 PM
 
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One thing though, is that while there is probably a sizeable group of people in other countries who don't like the US/its actions/its corporations etc., MOST of those people would never act on them in the way terrorists do. Kind of like those of us IN the US who have problems with the same issues. I'd never hurt someone to get my point across, because that would be wrong.
In my own conversations with people (I was in Morocco when the US bombed Iraq under Clinton), I found that while the conversations may even begin with an angry person assuming an American supports what the US admin does, they usually end with a clearer understanding that the admin often does stupid, ridiculous things that many Americans do not support.

Therein lies a big difference. The average Joe or Muhammad knows not to fault an individual for the actions of a government. (Of course, in theory, our government is elected by us to represent us, and I guess this could become problematic.) But this is where a terrorist is different. He/she does not seem to care about that individual. His criminal mind sees a human life as potential harm he can inflict on an enemy--i.e., if we all "belong" to our government, then, by hurting us, he is really hurting the USA, which is his goal. We do't really matter on a personal level--and of we do, then it is because he has been convinced of our complicity.

Another point about some of these terrorist groups is that they SOOOO emphasize their view of martyrdom and the hereafter, and combine that so effectively with dehumanizing hate rhetoric, their recruits seem to lose sight of the damage, pain, and loss they inflict on families, communities, and individual people.

What we are lacking in attempting to combat terror seems to be the victim impact statement to these groups. Those who commit such acts maybe should be forced to see the humanity they have destroyed by their acts. Instead, we show a hard and angry and vengeful face, which only seems to stir more anger.

Just some thoughts and rambling...
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#25 of 35 Old 07-03-2003, 02:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Excellent points, UmmNuh. I, too, wonder if we could reduce terrorism not solely by behaving more responsibly as members of the global community, but also by emphasizing the horrible human consequences of terrorist acts rather than responding to them in kind.

If we can't be sensible and respond to affronts in a responsible manner that's best calculated to bring about the desired results, then who on earth will do it? Responding to terrorist acts by causing more killing and pain isn't going to stop the violence. It also won't make people or nations cower into submission, most likely. As such, I have utterly no idea what our present strategy for responding to terrorism and alleged international terrorist threats, as executed in Afghanistan and Iraq, is supposed to accomplish.
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#26 of 35 Old 07-03-2003, 03:18 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by UmmNuh
Those who commit such acts maybe should be forced to see the humanity they have destroyed by their acts.
I truly see this as a more productive and humane approach to any destructive behavior, but we have a pResident in office who thinks death penalty is an appropriate response for all - including underage and mentally retarded . . . fodder for anpther thread, sorry!


IF the US wants to show how superior they are they should do so in a more mature and responsible form than always pulling out the bombs (or the electric chair/injection). If this were a parenting situation (which technically it could be seen as such when one sees the financial and stability comparisons) would someone really thin it is OK to respond to violent behavior with even greater violence? (He pulls his hand back, ready to slam his fist into the face of the perpetrator saying, "THIS will teach you not to hit!" WHAM!)
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#27 of 35 Old 07-03-2003, 04:10 PM - Thread Starter
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If this were a parenting situation (which technically it could be seen as such when one sees the financial and stability comparisons) would someone really thin it is OK to respond to violent behavior with even greater violence? (He pulls his hand back, ready to slam his fist into the face of the perpetrator saying, "THIS will teach you not to hit!" WHAM!)
Yeah, but look at how many folks in the US would likely opt for that choice when parenting. I mean, it's almost Cro Magnon: "Og's child do bad things. Og feel mad! Og beat bad child into submission!" We've come a long way, baby! :
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#28 of 35 Old 07-04-2003, 08:50 AM
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Ok, let's clarify the McDonald's (big corporation) thing.

In many cities, like Moscow, McDonald's is relatively inexpensive. In many cities there is a MickieD's at every subway station. How does McDonald's do this? I'm here to tell you that it would be nearly impossible for a local in most eastern, european or third world countries to get a license to open this many restaurants and to offer low-cost meals. How do you think McDonald's does it? Gee, let me think. : It took McDonald's at least 10 years to get a store opened in Florence, Italy. The city council fought McDonald's tooth & nail. No MickieD's! Last I saw, there were 3 - that was 3 years ago. Gee, how'd they do that? The fees and red-tape offered to locals is absolutely astounding in most countries.

American corporations are bullies! They are paying their way into these countries and shoving their crap down people's thoats. Of course there is always the ignorant majority that just goes along with it, as the enlightened few watch in dismay as their country's identity is bought and paid for by American dollars.

Don't you all get that? And why, for some of you, is it OK that this happens - even when the people seemingly go along with it?
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#29 of 35 Old 07-04-2003, 10:10 AM
 
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T ParisMaman! I was just thinking about you this morning!
El Casey S is offline  
#30 of 35 Old 07-04-2003, 11:46 AM
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