What does Dean really think? - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 28 Old 06-30-2003, 04:43 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Just read this and wonder what others think:

Dean Not Progressive on Mideast


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#2 of 28 Old 06-30-2003, 07:12 PM
 
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Perhaps I misunderstood but...It sounds like the author put a few words in Deans mouth. To take a statement like: "we have to be very, very careful of Iran" and turn it into this : "Dean even left open the possibility of preemptive strikes ...??

The author has lost credibility with me there. Here is what Dean actually says about that subject...

Quote:
Preemptive war against tyrannical dictators is not a comprehensive strategy for addressing the threat of terrorists, tyrants, and technologies of mass destruction pose in the 21st century.
More info from HD's website on this subject.

National Security

Thanks for the info El's It was a bit frightening until I researched it PHEW!
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#3 of 28 Old 07-03-2003, 05:50 AM
 
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" but there is no mention of the Israeli violence that has resulted in over 2,391 deaths since September 2000.


Last December, Dean told the Jerusalem Post that he unequivocally supported $8 billion in U.S. loan guarantees for Israel. "I believe that by providing Israel with the loan guarantees ... the US will be advancing its own interest," he said. His unconditional support for the loan package, in addition to $4 billion in outright grants, went further than even some of the most pro-Israel elements in the Bush administration, like Paul Wolfowitz, who wanted to at least include some vague restrictions like pushing Israel to curtail new settlements and accept a timetable to establish a Palestinian state.


On the illegal Israeli settlements, Dean seems to be waffling of late....."

Good to know, Thanks Els' 3 ones I am sickened
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#4 of 28 Old 07-03-2003, 11:56 AM
 
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I am truly optimistic about the chances for peace in the Middle East. Our strongest asset is that majorities of both peoples in this conflict actually accept a two-state solution guaranteeing both sides security, sovereignty and dignity.

Most Israelis recognize that they will have to give back occupied land and give up settlements. Most Palestinians understand that there will never be a Palestinian state as long as terrorist attacks continue. Yet the Palestinians have assets that are often misunderstood.
From Dean's website here...regarding National Security. I must be naive about all this... but his words/ position sound comprehensive and reasonable to me personally
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#5 of 28 Old 07-03-2003, 12:12 PM
 
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T

Alternet apparently supports Kucinich...

Alternet can't do a story about Dean with out mentioning Kucinich, who they obviously support. The key theme is 'Dean is not really progressive,' your being fooled...

Dare I say Dean supporters know who he is, and they know who Kucinich is, they simply choose Dean.

My 2 cents for today.

Im out ladies,





Some more perspecitve on Alternet...

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#6 of 28 Old 07-04-2003, 02:15 AM
 
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Thanks El. Here are two more articles on Dean if anyone's interested:

http://www.wildmatters.org./stories.php?storyID=85

http://www.workingforchange.com/arti...TOKEN=57363839
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#7 of 28 Old 07-04-2003, 03:12 AM
 
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I recently found out that Dean is very pro-zionist.

while it would be political suicide for any coandidate to publicly be anything else, it still bummed me out. I was excited about Dean. I'm not anymore.

Oh well, I was sort of embarrassed about being excited about a democratic candidate anyway.

(except maybe Kucinich is kinda interesting...)
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#8 of 28 Old 07-04-2003, 12:24 PM
 
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Never fear gang, it looks like Nader may come to the rescue...again


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#9 of 28 Old 07-04-2003, 02:29 PM
 
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Am really fascinated by this discussion.

Is Dean's view against terrorism? Yes. Does that make him "Bush-lite"? Ummmm ... no.

Is there something bad about wanting Iran and Saudi Arabia to stop funding and arming terrorists?

And sadie_sabot, assuming you're pro-Palestinian nationalism ... as am I ... then why is that okay but being pro-Jewish nationalism isn't?

Sounds to me like Dean calls for a 2-state solution. What's the problem with that? (The extremists want only 1 state -- whichever side they're on). So why is that not acceptable to progressives?

Am not looking for an argument. Am really honestly looking for simple answers.

This is all interesting. I was totally not interested in Dean because of his backing by the NRA, and that hasn't changed. I'm just fascinated that his support for a 2-state solution and his being against states that back open terrorism is considered "anti-progressive."
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#10 of 28 Old 07-05-2003, 01:35 AM
 
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This is a link to the article I read:

http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?...&group=webcast

I know this is a really touchy subject in general, but hmmm, I brought it up, eh?

It is not Dean's support for a "two state solution" that troubles me. I think a two state solution is probably the only option, although it too is troublesome. ( for instance, Who will get the water? who gets the land settlements are on?) I also think that it's not up to me, right? And whatever the "solution" is has to be determined by those who live there. unfortunately, my perception of the current situation is that alestinians really haven't got much of a voice, and have few to no options. And the settlements continue...

In any case, it's more Dean's support for AIPAC which I find troublesome. hardly progressive.

although I also don't think anyone's calling him "anti-progressive" based on that or anything else.

All that said, it would be cool if Dean was the demo candidate because it would really broaden the debates. I'd love to see Bush have to debate Dean as opposed to, say, Kerry.

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#11 of 28 Old 07-05-2003, 12:44 PM
 
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Dean's position on Iraq sets him far apart from Bush/Sharon.

Dean has said on several occasions that he supports a two state solution.

The articles pluck out the positions that make Dean seem more hawkish and leave out the 'reason' in his statements.

He said his view is 'closer to' AIPIC then APN not in line with.

Quote:
On the illegal Israeli settlements, Dean seems to be waffling of late. A pro-Dean blog quotes his campaign as calling for the ultimate removal of only "a number of existing settlements." (The link back to the official site was no longer operational as of this writing.) However, in what may signal a softening of his position to woo progressive voters in the upcoming MoveOn.org Democratic "Primary" vote, Dean called last month for "ultimately dismantling the settlements." So which one is it?
I think there grasping at straws, sorry...
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#12 of 28 Old 07-06-2003, 12:33 AM
 
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Look folks, If Dean is to go the long road he cannot go so far to the left now that he becomes hypocritical when he moves to the right post convention!!!

I want Shrubby out of the Whitehouse, I think Howard Dean can do good things for the nation as a whole. I think he can build us a system that will give most folks health insurance for a cost that will not stagger us. I think he can slowly begin to repair the damage that has been done but he has to get elected first!!!! If he's moderate enough to play on a national level then there will be folks on the left who will not like him.

Finally third party candidates are poison for whichever side of the aisle they arise from. Jack Anderson handed us Ronald Reagan, Ross Perot handed us Bill Clinton and Ralph Nader handed us Shrubby. Third party presidential candidates will not fix the system...

Send more folks like Bernie Sanders to congress! It is not impossible to send enough indies to congress to take over the leadership and change the way things are done in Washington! If there are currently 435 members of congress all you need to do is win 146 seats for independents and, providing they do not fracture down left/right lines, they will control the leadership of the House!! Just think of the posibilities! ***wanders off starry eyed***"Who could beat McHugh?"
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#13 of 28 Old 07-06-2003, 08:00 PM
 
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#14 of 28 Old 07-06-2003, 08:01 PM
 
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s_s, this is probably off track, but there are people who see no reason why some of the settlements couldn't be put under Palestinian control and authority, without having to dismantle them or to eliminate the Jewish population from them.

In other words, they don't see a reason why the nascent Palestinian state should be Judenrein, or in English, ethnically cleansed of Jews.

Maybe that's where Dean is coming from ... :

Just a suggestion.
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#15 of 28 Old 07-06-2003, 08:40 PM
 
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That would be wonderful merpk.
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#16 of 28 Old 07-07-2003, 10:03 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Nader seems to like Kucinich...........he is quoted here from a "Crossfire" interview:

Quote:
"If Dennis Kucinich gets the nomination, it'll be less reason to have a third-party challenge. He's a very progressive Democrat."
I think the donkeys need to get wild. I highly doubt that a progressive candidate would lose the party regulars to the Bush camp. If the elephants can so so freeking far to the right, why can't the donkeys go to the left? What are they so afraid of? Most of the country only knows 2 parties exist..................and I doubt all the left leaning folks are going to fall right just because the donkeys might actually act like a truly unique party instead of republican lite.


And, Gore won by more than 500,000 votes. We don't need the electoral college these days...................if ppl in Podunk, Idaho can't get the news, internet, television then they shouldn't cast a vote. The EC is outdated to say the least. I daresay it is the reason MANY don't vote (ie: my vote doesn't count) and the last election cemented that for many. I am very sad that there is no discourse on this subject from any candidates.....................sorry to digress, perhaps this is a diff thread.



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#17 of 28 Old 07-07-2003, 12:19 PM
 
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El's I agree with you about the electoral vote.

Also, regarding Kucinich he ran his state into a huge deficit and flip flopped on choice, which are some of the reasons I don't support him 'personally'.

However, I think Nader would be well served to support Kucinich instead of running. But...

Nader to run???

Quote:
Nader says that if the Greens reject him, he might choose to run as an independent, or possibly even as a Republican, which would pit him against George W. Bush in the primary.

"Wouldn't that be interesting? A Republican run?" he muses. Ralph Nader~June 2003
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#18 of 28 Old 07-07-2003, 03:02 PM
 
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Devi ~ Just an FYI - Kucinich wasn't in charge of a state budget, he was the mayor of I believe, Cleveland. When he came into office he was charged with turning around major budget problems which he failed to do and the city filed bankruptcy. Interestingly enough, the citizens of Ohio seemed to forget and/or forgive him for that and voted him in as a Congressperson.

Re: his position on choice. I am not sure why this should even be a major concern. I can name off the top of my head numerous Senators and Congresspeople who are anti-abortion personally and pro-choice politically, both Republican and Democrat. He would be crucified politically if he said he was pro-choice and then did anything in office which opposed that stance. So I am not sure why this should be a major concern re: Kucinich.

I am not a Kucinich supporter, I just had to throw my .02 in on the subject :LOL

~Deirdre
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#19 of 28 Old 07-07-2003, 05:00 PM
 
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Man, Dierdre, quit makin' me think :LOL

Regarding The Cleveland issue. I said he ran the state into deficit, I should have said the city wooops.

Clarification below:

Article here

Quote:
After a 10-year ride through Cleveland politics that culminated with his 1977 mayoral win and crashed with his defeat two tumultuous years later, Kucinich exited the scene, leaving behind a city in default. His two-year term was marked by explosive confrontations with virtually every powerful entity of the city, revolving mostly around an issue that erupted on Dec. 15, 1978, when Kucinich refused to yield to bankers who gave him a choice: Sell the Municipal Light System to the Cleveland Electric Illuminating Co. or the city will go into default. The mayor said no. And the city went down. And the legacy has been his ever since.
Some say DK is a hero who stood his ground, and some think he was arrogant and foolish. Either way, I think this issue would really haunt him now given that we are currently experiencing record Federal deficits KWIM?

Regarding choice:

My issue with DK is more with his typical political make-over, then with his personal postion on the issue. You see, if I'm gonna vote for a candidate who has had a political makeover, it's gonna be a more viable candidate KWIM?

Indy Media Article below

Quote:
..You had a perfect, 100 percent anti-abortion (anti-choice) voting record, and last year you completely switched.
There was a time when I was torn between DK and Dean, but eventually Dean won out for me. Although, I wouldn't say I'm a die hard Dean fan either as I'm still somewhat open to folks who may enter the race at a later date.

I guess in the end, (for me) it all comes down to what Molly Ivins recently said in Minneapolis...

"In the primary vote your heart, and in the election vote your head."

I do think one gets pretty spoiled living in a State that had Paul Wellstone as our Senator for so many years. *sigh*
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#20 of 28 Old 07-07-2003, 07:49 PM
 
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I have read that Kucinich is very like Wellstone
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#21 of 28 Old 07-08-2003, 01:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by mamitorres
I have read that Kucinich is very like Wellstone
I think many of the candidate supporters like to allign their guy with Paul Wellstone, KWIM?
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#22 of 28 Old 07-09-2003, 04:50 PM
 
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Dean is out for us since we learned he supported
genetically modified organisms in Vermont...terrifying. And he supported storing nuclear waste in Yucca Mtn in Nevada. He also drives an SUV...grrrrrrrrr.
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#23 of 28 Old 07-10-2003, 04:26 AM
 
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Dean definately is not my guy

but Eight multi-cultural feminists just endorsed Kusinich and so did Gandi's grandson
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#24 of 28 Old 07-10-2003, 05:45 AM
 
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Fascinating.

So now it's Wellstone that the candidate should emulate. Good. I'd like that.

This thread began with a criticism of Dean because of particular "pro-Zionist" tendencies.

But Wellstone was a Zionist in its actual meaning -- ie., he supported the existence of the State of Israel and a 2-state solution in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

So is it a bad thing or a good thing? To be like Wellstone, that is.

:



And yes, I know the OP was talking more specifically about settlement issues. Just extrapolating from the follow-ups ...
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#25 of 28 Old 07-10-2003, 06:28 AM
 
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Quote:
Eight diverse feminist writers and organizers have initiated a statement in support of Kucinich, which will be widely circulated to attract new supporters.

The original signers are: BARBARA EHRENREICH, political essayist and author ("Nickel and Dimed"); ANGELA GILLIAM, professor and expert on Black feminist anthropology; YNESTRA KING, writer and activist on environmental, feminist, and disability issues; GAIL LERNER, organizer in the global women's movement and with U.N. agencies; GRACE PALEY, peace activist and author
("Enormous Changes at the Last Minute"); ROSALIND PETCHESKY, international feminist activist and political science professor; DIGNA SANCHEZ, Latina community activist in New York; MEREDITH TAX, novelist, essayist and international organizer of feminist writers.

Although the statement has just started to circulate, it has already attracted signatures from such prominent feminists as Blanche Weisen Cook, biographer of Eleanor Roosevelt; Marilyn French, author of "The Women's Room"; actress and singer Ronnie Gilbert; Jewish activist and poet Irena Klepfisz; and political scientist Zillah Eisenstein.

Here's a summary of the statement. For the full statement, and to sign on:
http://www.ipetitions.com/campaigns/...ts_4_kucinich/

FEMINISTS FOR KUCINICH
Rather than waiting to hear what all the Democratic candidates have to say, then jumping on the bandwagon of the least offensive, we decided to make our own list of priorities and see who agrees with us.

1) We want a candidate who will stop the war on the poor. 2) We want a candidate who stands for peace, respects international treaties and institutions such as the U.N. and the International Criminal Court, and tries to resolve problems through negotiation. 3) We want a candidate who will defend the separation of church and state, and the individual rights guaranteed us by the Constitution.
4) We want a candidate who opposes discrimination based on sexual orientation or gender identity, and who stands for women's reproductive rights and recognizes that these rights depend on universal health insurance. 5) We want a candidate who will address questions of global economic imbalance and stand up for the rights of immigrants. 6) We want a candidate who will challenge racism domestically and internationally.

Dennis Kucinich is the only candidate who not only agrees with all these points but has developed policies to support them: starting a cabinet-level Department of Peace; supporting unions and the right to organize; cutting the bloated military budget; restoring environmental regulations and launching a "Global Green Deal" to benefit developing countries; withdrawing from NAFTA and the WTO and challenging IMF/World Bank policies; repealing the "Patriot Act"; upholding Roe v. Wade; working for universal health insurance; and abolishing the racially and economically biased death penalty.

Because we feel that he comes closest to representing our priorities, we have decided to support Dennis Kucinich for President.
http://kucinich.us/electable.htm
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#26 of 28 Old 07-10-2003, 07:03 AM
 
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I'm waffling between who I want to see in office and who I think has the best chance of getting Bush OUT of office. Kucinich is my dream guy in so many ways, but frankly I fear that he wouldn't be able to oust the current regime. Dean is close enough to my way of thinking, and (imo) has a better chance of winning.

I feel like such a hypocrite. I want to be a starry-eyed idealist. I want my political virginity back!
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#27 of 28 Old 07-10-2003, 10:11 AM - Thread Starter
 
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When I cast my vote, I'd like to *know* as much as possible abt the candidate. Just a quirk I have

I thought this article had some valid points abt Dean not being quite what he *says* and I wanted to share that. The topic was Dean, not Israel. The subject was whether we *know* his stance on issues or not.

Here is what stuck out most to me:

Quote:
In a major foreign policy speech earlier this year, Dean, while calling for an end to Palestinian violence, did not call for an end to Israeli violence, let alone an end to the illegal Israeli occupation.
IMO, noting a Israeli violation would have balanced this off.

Quote:
In fact, Dean's alignment with AIPAC and their right-wing politics goes much deeper than aligning with the group’s platform. Last year, he named Steven Grossman, a former AIPAC head, as his campaign's chief fundraiser. Soon after, he flew to Israel on an AIPAC-sponsored junket.
One of my biggest passions is campaign finance reform. For various reasons, but mostly because I think money is very seductive. I don't feel comfortable with anyone travelling at the expense of a political action committee
Quote:
Once again, sounding very much like President Bush, Dean charged during a New Hampshire campaign stop this month that Iran (along with Saudi Arabia, Syria, and Libya) was "funding Palestinian terrorists and fueling terrorism throughout the world."
: This sounds too much like the rhetoric from the WH, IMO.



Kucinich may actually be gathering some steam (she says in a squeaky, hopeful voice)....................Maybe it *is* time that the Democratic party look different from the Republican party. Not just a little different on a few issues, but WAY different. WAY more progressive than as of late.

The whole reason you stated, Pallas, is the reason soooo many won't ever vote 3rd party; ie wanting to pick a winner or wanting to beat the one they hate the most. We are all conditioned to believe we really only have 2 choices...........

I strongly believe in karma. After the last fiasco of an election, maybe the energy will swing the other way and we will have a loud, resounding shout from the ppl!!!!!! We need to be excited and hopeful. Shrub's ratings are dropping ---- no telling how bad that could be in a year. Would'nt it be something if all the ppl who voted for him on the abortion issue would now be embarrassed to vote again for him on one issue?


Criminey, listen to me, I sound just like a political virgin



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#28 of 28 Old 07-11-2003, 03:33 AM
 
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Call me crazy, but I honestly believe that Kucinich would have a better chance of beating Bush than Dean because in addition to the votes from Democrats, he'd also get votes from Greens, Independents and non-voters. Remember, only HALF the population votes and it just keeps dropping because people don't see a big enough difference between the candidates. People want a candidate who stands out from the rest-even Republicans-which is why Nader got votes from Republicans as well. If Nader had been allowed in the debates, he would have received so many more votes (Like Perot) People want to vote for someone they can respect-Someone who's not afraid to admit they're a Liberal.

For those who don't agree, all I can say is that I think it's important to take chances in life. Gandhi, Jesus and Martin Luther King never played it safe. We could have so much more if we stopped being fearful and voted for politicians who really do care about the poor, the environment, etc. And I see that starting to happen. There are a number of Greens throughout the U.S. who have been elected to office. But there won't be any need for them in the future if we start seeing more Democrats like Kucinich.
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