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#1 of 86 Old 07-23-2003, 03:22 AM - Thread Starter
 
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300 troops fighting for 6 hours to kill 4 guys (and one was a boy) and in the end they have to call in the bombs - I know - it must have been a very unique situation, but it sounds like a comedy. And Bush is praising it - talk about SPIN DOCTOR!
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#2 of 86 Old 07-23-2003, 07:45 AM
 
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Are they "for sure" dead this time? The spin is shameful, but I just can't help but question if they are actually gone this time.

Mom to 10yo Autistic Wonder Boy and 6yo Inquisitive Fireball Girl . December birthdays.

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#3 of 86 Old 07-23-2003, 07:58 AM - Thread Starter
 
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"Trust but verify . . . "

And still, I don't trust : :ignore Ah what to do Jennifer - I know where you are coming from!:
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#4 of 86 Old 07-23-2003, 08:49 AM
 
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I saw on the news this morning that they are planning to release pictures of the dead bodies to prove it to everyone.
I didn't realize it took them 6 hours and 300 troops though! I shouldn't be surprised that they aren't saying anything about that on the mainstream news in my town.
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#5 of 86 Old 07-23-2003, 09:13 AM
 
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I saw on the networks last night ... CBS and PBS ... that it took a six-hour firefight and a whole [what, division? battalion? don't know the word] and they found four people dead.

Sounds like the mainstream news is reporting it to me.

It might be added that we don't know how many people were originally in there with them, and we don't know how many weapons they had with how much ammunition. Obviously one whole heck of a lot. Well, ammunition, anyway.

The child was apparently the son of one of the sons. 14 years old.
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#6 of 86 Old 07-23-2003, 09:45 AM
 
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Are you serious?? A FOURTEEN year old????

Nightmare. Can you even imagine how terrified that boy must feel!

Where is his mother?
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#7 of 86 Old 07-23-2003, 09:46 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Yeah - It is really beyond my comprehension to follow the mentality of someone jumping up and down and holloring with joy that someone(s) is/are dead . . . I'm just lost to that - sorry. Regardless of how horrible - it is still somehow solemn to me - in the case of Saddam & his sons - I am sadden at the thought of all the evil those lives did - it strikes me hard - but to rejoice seems so bizarre :
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#8 of 86 Old 07-23-2003, 10:03 AM
 
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I agree, I have never understood how people could rejoice at the death of another. Especially a child.

Mom to 10yo Autistic Wonder Boy and 6yo Inquisitive Fireball Girl . December birthdays.

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#9 of 86 Old 07-23-2003, 10:51 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by merpk
I saw on the networks last night ... CBS and PBS ... that it took a six-hour firefight and a whole [what, division? battalion? don't know the word] and they found four people dead.

Sounds like the mainstream news is reporting it to me.

It might be added that we don't know how many people were originally in there with them, and we don't know how many weapons they had with how much ammunition. Obviously one whole heck of a lot. Well, ammunition, anyway.

The child was apparently the son of one of the sons. 14 years old.
I live in an extremely conservative city. EXTREMELY! Also, it was the 5:30 a.m. news I was watching, so the coverage might not have been as detailed. And...the spin doctors may have gotten ahold of the media by the time I saw the reports this morning.

Yes, I heard on NPR that there was a 14-year-old boy that was among the dead. I feel sadness for everyone who's lost their life and I also wonder about the validity of it all.

And slightly T...where's Osama Bin Laden? Isn't he the one we're supposed to be worried about? I don't understand why there's not an outcry to catch him?
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#10 of 86 Old 07-23-2003, 11:35 AM
 
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Its interesting the timing of this; I wonder if they will "find" saddam hussein right before the next election? The sway was certainly going against bush. now all of a sudden, he's cool again. interesting. we are no longer talking about the deficits, the amazing amounts of money being spent on this debacle. Now everyone is cheering over a pretty ludicrous and insane action. The mob mentality at work, I guess.
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#11 of 86 Old 07-23-2003, 12:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by El Casey S
Yeah - It is really beyond my comprehension to follow the mentality of someone jumping up and down and holloring with joy that someone(s) is/are dead . . . I'm just lost to that - sorry. Regardless of how horrible - it is still somehow solemn to me - in the case of Saddam & his sons - I am sadden at the thought of all the evil those lives did - it strikes me hard - but to rejoice seems so bizarre :
I agree. I can't get past the fact that, since I became a mother all I think is -- those men were someone's babies at one point. Yes, perhaps they were evil doers and maybe killing them prevented a whole lot of needless suffering, but have some respect for the sanctity of life.

Silence is the only reaction I can have, I guess.

Monica, mom to Lilly (7) and Carter (4) and rainbow baby Elsa (11/27/10).
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#12 of 86 Old 07-23-2003, 01:20 PM
 
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I don't think anyone was feeling sorry for Saddam's sons. There were comments about the 14 year old (Saddam's grandson?) but that was it.

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#13 of 86 Old 07-23-2003, 01:47 PM
 
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The reason it took so long, with so many forces, was because they were TRYING to avoid killing them. Taking them capture would have been a wonderful intelligence boon.

However, the US forces were not going to risk even one of their soldiers' lives for the sons', which is why they took their time and had so much support.

They could have dropped a few 4K bombs on the building immediately and that would have gotten rid of them instantly, but that's not what they wanted to do. They killed the boy after they entered the building (when the other 3 were dead) because he was firing at them.

Regardless, dead or alive, they are not a threat to the Iraqi people anymore.
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#14 of 86 Old 07-23-2003, 01:53 PM - Thread Starter
 
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move along folks . . . there's nothing here.
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#15 of 86 Old 07-23-2003, 01:55 PM
 
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I can only speak for myself, so I'll say that while I'm not dancing in the street (not my style), I am genuinely happy that those two men are gone forever and can sadistically torture and murder people no more.

The 14 y.o. boy's death is a tragedy. He could still have been an innocent. Though children younger than that have been used in armies all over the world. US troops are warned not to assume these kids are harmless. Some have been trained to be killers, and some are used to get personnel off their guard. We don't know one way or another about that kid.

Someone moved my effing cheese.
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#16 of 86 Old 07-23-2003, 01:57 PM
 
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I find it emotional blackmail, insulting and disgusting.
How so?

Someone moved my effing cheese.
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#17 of 86 Old 07-23-2003, 02:06 PM
 
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#18 of 86 Old 07-23-2003, 02:08 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nursing Mother


...and some of you are feeling sorry for THEM.

...
I think rejoicing is in order, especially for the victims of these guys. Gloating is not in order imo.
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." Ghandi

Rejoicing at the death of ANY HUMAN BEING is, in my opinion, one step down the road to being as awful and inhumane as these men. We have managed to take all humanity out of them -- they have done bad things - YES, I'm not denying that. Like I said before, the world is probably a better place with them NOT in it. . . but that doesn't mean I should be happy that another human being has died.

I am sad they are dead. I'm saddened that their death will save other people's lives because the Saddam boys did bad things. I'm saddened by the whole situation. That doesn't make me a Saddam supporter.

Monica, mom to Lilly (7) and Carter (4) and rainbow baby Elsa (11/27/10).
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#19 of 86 Old 07-23-2003, 02:13 PM
 
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I don't know that people are celebrating their *deaths* as much as they are celebrating what it means for the Iraqi people.
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#20 of 86 Old 07-23-2003, 02:38 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally posted by Delta
I don't know that people are celebrating their *deaths* as much as they are celebrating what it means for the Iraqi people.
You are right - you don't know why they are celebrating - and I can imagine that there would be a thousand good reasons . . . ding dong the witch is dead . . . only a percentage would be celebrating for the reason you mentioned - how are their deaths really changing the effects of the war/post war experience - minimally - but it is still beyond ME to fathom people rejoicing over any death - and to be accused of "sympathizing with the devil" because I cannot fathom the rejoicing over a lost soul - is insulting, disgusting, and the lowest form of ignorant, emotional blackmailing that I know of. How can anyone (especially who consider themselves Christian) consider it really OK to rejoice over deaths? I cry at the waste of their lives that they had while they were still alive - and the waste after their death - or I am struck silent with the overwhelming nature of it all - but I cannot imagine rejoicing ove the death of someone - that seems so cold-hearted.
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#21 of 86 Old 07-23-2003, 03:07 PM
 
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#22 of 86 Old 07-23-2003, 03:07 PM
 
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However bad these 2 men were, I don't think getting rid of them justifies the death of a 14 yo child. I'm anguishing at the thought of what his mother must be going through.

And I am also angry at those men, who must have KNOWN they were being hunted, and yet still chose to keep the boy with them. They should have known better.
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#23 of 86 Old 07-23-2003, 03:15 PM
 
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I think people were talking about people in the US gloating, not the Iraqi people. We can only imagine the horrors these men inflicted on them and I can hardly blame them for being relieved they are gone.

However, I do think that it is innappropiate to do so over here, someone mentioned hearing gloating on the radio and that makes me kind of sick.

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#24 of 86 Old 07-23-2003, 03:19 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally posted by mahdokht
ElCaseyS I really understand what you are saying and I admire your compassion, reason and the strength of your convictions, but I think the "ding-dong the witch is dead" comment really degrades the right of the Iraqi people to rejoice and the real possibility that their years in hell might be over. Even if that means that the one who was responsible for so much of their oppression had to suffer. Just as human beings have a right to compassion, they also have a right to justice and to live free of oppression.
Actually, my ding dong the witch is dead quote was to show that I imagine that was why they rejoiced. The monkeys felt oppressed by the witch are were sincerely glad she was dead and they gave Dorothy that which she needed to make her dreams come true.

So - my sensitivity degrades the Iraquis! :
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#25 of 86 Old 07-23-2003, 03:22 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally posted by abimommy
I think people were talking about people in the US gloating, not the Iraqi people. We can only imagine the horrors these men inflicted on them and I can hardly blame them for being relieved they are gone.

However, I do think that it is innappropiate to do so over here, someone mentioned hearing gloating on the radio and that makes me kind of sick.
Actually - yes - it bothers me in Iraq, but I can understand it - and it happens more than you would admit that hose in the US gloat over deaths of people unrelated in any way to them - take into consideration the electric chair deaths in Texas that get such groupies!
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#26 of 86 Old 07-23-2003, 03:31 PM
 
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The thing that disturbs me the most are the U.S. people who are gloating over this death. George Bush Jr's PR people are standing on the corpse of Saddam's 2 sons and his 14 year old grandson as a sign that they have prevailed. That people here have the "gotcha sucker" mentality regarding these four people killed yesterday really turns my stomach. Really.

I can understand the elation oppressed people would feel at the death of their despot. I believe that their happiness at the death of another human is a testament to the inhumanity they have suffered- they are elated that they should no longer feel the chains of that human again, but for those of us who are watching from the outside - is it really justified for us to cheer the death of another person?

Monica, mom to Lilly (7) and Carter (4) and rainbow baby Elsa (11/27/10).
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#27 of 86 Old 07-23-2003, 04:33 PM
 
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#28 of 86 Old 07-23-2003, 04:40 PM
 
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#29 of 86 Old 07-23-2003, 05:35 PM
 
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"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." Ghandi

Rejoicing at the death of ANY HUMAN BEING is, in my opinion, one step down the road to being as awful and inhumane as these men. We have managed to take all humanity out of them -- they have done bad things - YES, I'm not denying that. Like I said before, the world is probably a better place with them NOT in it. . . but that doesn't mean I should be happy that another human being has died.

I am sad they are dead. I'm saddened that their death will save other people's lives because the Saddam boys did bad things. I'm saddened by the whole situation. That doesn't make me a Saddam supporter.
Hey Mon! Cool to see you here! I couldn't agree more with this statement. And if they release those pictures of the dead in the US I will be truly sickened.
I can understand wanting to show them to the Iraqis who have been living in fear of these two for so long to prove to them that they are a bit safer. But even still, it seems disrespectful.
It is not our place to judge the souls of people. And being gleeful about someone's death seems disrespectful of that person's soul. They will never have the chance to make amends for what they have done to their fellow countrymen. Who knows what circumstances these men were raised in (as someone else mentioned.)
I also don't think this is going to stop the fighting over there. I don't think Saddam's death will stop it either.
And, the Al Queda cells are still going to keep working even if we ever do find Osama Bin Laden. What we need to do is beef up our security and clean up our side of the street. But that's too logical though, isn't it?
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#30 of 86 Old 07-23-2003, 06:03 PM
 
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Bush is an.... ok i edited that no name calling allowed. I just think his ability to think of humanity beyond the moral scope of a childish game of 'cowboys and indians' is severly lacking. He seems to frequently gloat over and enjoy the suffering of others.
Wow. If he 'enjoyed' their suffering so much, I assume he'd have let Saddam and his sons continue their rein.

Give me a break. Fine if you don't agree with his politics, but that doesn't mean you can make him into horrible monster, which he is most definitely not.
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