Supreme Court Will Not Review Judge Moore's Case re Ten Commandments - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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#31 of 57 Old 08-22-2003, 10:40 AM
 
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Either I'm fully awake now, or your making more sense

Either way, excellent post Hilary
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#32 of 57 Old 08-22-2003, 12:06 PM
 
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Hilary~ Whatever the reason for your 'sentence' I am sure it is for a noble cause!!

PS- don't forget to promote breastfeeding and natural parenting while your incarcerated!

Peace sista!
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#33 of 57 Old 08-22-2003, 12:55 PM
 
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Another article about this issue:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/955476.asp?cp1=1

I'm curious what parts of English Common Law, granting as it does actual Rights to the common people, came from the Bible. It was the Bible used to defend the "Divine Right of Kings", except for gleaning fields I don't recall any rights of people to choose their leaders or much else coming out of the Bible.

Is that's the basis for our law, then where in the Constitution does it say we shall have no gods before "Me" [Yahweh]?

The concepts in our law against things like murder and theft are universal. The 10 Commandments were neither the first nor only codification of such basic precepts for civilized society.

Our government is more strongly based on the Greek concept of Democracy, the Iroquios concepts of confederations and leaders being chosen (including by the women!), and Icelandic Thing counsel type governments than by anything in the Bible. If we are so Bible based why do we not have a King?

If the historical basis for our government is what's being memorialized then the Iroquioan "Seventh Generation" and Articles of Confederation are what should be on that hunk of rock.

When Moore put that monument on PUBLIC land instead of his own private property he leapt out of the sphere of Free Speech and into State Imposed Religion, a crystal clear violation of everything this country was founded upon.

I think all such displays should be removed. Moore's nonsense gets encouragement when 10 Commandment plaques like at the Alleghany County Courthouse in Pittsburgh are allowed to remain because "it's been there 80 years" and is thus historical. An 80 year old wrong is still a wrong.

"What will you do once you know?"
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#34 of 57 Old 08-22-2003, 01:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally posted by Hilary
Marlena,

I would like to know what the words were underneath the words you quoted, and further, what the black words were on the upright, and who they were attributed to.
The only words I saw, on the pedestal supporting the rendition of the Ten Commandments, in all caps, were those I quoted above: "LAW OF NATURE AND OF NATURE'S GOD". They appeared to be chisled into the stone, as a prominent part of the display. I do not know, but suspect they were put there at the request of Judge Moore, who requisitioned the monument.

I've seen the Ten Commandments unobtrusively displayed on a wall in at least one judge's courtroom here in Houston. No one has yet taken public offense to that display, to my knowledge. It's the manner of Judge Moore's display and, even more to the point, the inscription that I quoted above on the pedestal that pushes the display well over the bar.

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There is no mention in any judgement of the removal for racial grounds, and were that so, I would that thought that your colleagues and the media would have been the first to crucify him on that one.
Racial matters played no role whatsoever in the decision, to the best of my knowledge. I was merely commenting on trabot's (I think) rhetorical query whether the presence of the monument would've deterred slavery and Jim Crow laws.
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#35 of 57 Old 08-22-2003, 07:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally posted by Hilary
Dear Marlena,

If you go back to the photograph, you will see that there are more words under the ones you quoted on the central thingy ~ Maybe a name and a date?..... , and a whole lot more chiselled into the black area surrounding that. And probably on the other side as well.
I can't see them on the photo I saw. Do you perhaps know the answers to the questions you asked?

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On that, I can only surmise, but I suspect he might be somewhat
I should think that one ought not to presume what any god might think, being mere a mere mortal. Isn't it demeaning, to think that a deity might be subject to human emotions?

re NM, yes, I suspect the Founding Fathers were referring to a Christian god. Then again, the Founding Fathers also counted African Americans as only 5/8 of a person, and that only for the purposes of determining a state's population for representation in Congress, if I remember correctly. Things change, eh? Accordingly, so does our concept of what "god" entails in such a setting. Otherwise, we'd still have slavery and the like. As it stands, we presently "overlook" various archaic and/or repugnant things that still exist in our Constitution. Not a surprise, given the age of the document.
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#36 of 57 Old 08-22-2003, 07:30 PM
 
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It is a misconception that common law is based on Christianity. And it seems it has been for a long time.

Thomas Jefferson, elaborated about the history of common law in his letter to Thomas Cooper on February 10, 1814:

"For we know that the common law is that system of law which was introduced by the Saxons on their settlement in England, and altered from time to time by proper legislative authority from that time to the date of Magna Charta, which terminates the period of the common law. . . This settlement took place about the middle of the fifth century. But Christianity was not introduced till the seventh century; the conversion of the first christian king of the Heptarchy having taken place about the year 598, and that of the last about 686. Here then, was a space of two hundred years, during which the common law was in existence, and Christianity no part of it."

". . . if any one chooses to build a doctrine on any law of that period, supposed to have been lost, it is incumbent on him to prove it to have existed, and what were its contents. These were so far alterations of the common law, and became themselves a part of it. But none of these adopt Christianity as a part of the common law. If, therefore, from the settlement of the Saxons to the introduction of Christianity among them, that system of religion could not be a part of the common law, because they were not yet Christians, and if, having their laws from that period to the close of the common law, we are all able to find among them no such act of adoption, we may safely affirm (though contradicted by all the judges and writers on earth) that Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."

Note to admins: These letters are out of copywrite and in the public domain.
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#37 of 57 Old 08-22-2003, 07:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Kama, whether or not Jefferson was correct (I'm no scholar of the history of the foundations of common law), the matter is not quite so simple (unfortunately). One finds references to "god" threaded throughout this country's laws and political discourse. The question is: what is the proper place of religion in such discourse, and how does one define "religion" or "god" within that discourse, given the nation's laws and their history. See, for example, Fernando Rey Martinez, THE RELIGIOUS CHARACTER OF THE AMERICAN CONSTITUTION: PURITANISM AND CONSTITUTIONALISM IN THE UNITED STATES, 12 Kansas Journal of Law and Public Policy 459 (Spring, 2003); and Joseph R. Duncan, Jr., Commentary PRIVILEGE, INVISIBILITY, AND RELIGION: A CRITIQUE OF THE PRIVILEGE THAT CHRISTIANITY HAS ENJOYED IN THE UNITED STATES, 54 Alabama Law Review 617 (Winter 2003), just for starters.
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#38 of 57 Old 08-22-2003, 08:12 PM
 
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As the sky darkened, and Jesus's time on the cross was at the end, the temple curtain was torn, not from the bottom to the top, but from the top to the bottom.

Who did it, and why? What was was the ramifications of that, for all who follow Jesus?

What part of the Bible did the resurrection also crucially change in terms of those who follow Jesus, and in which words that Jesus spoke, before his crucifixion, is that clearly reflected in?
I can't answer those questions, since I doubt the veracity of the Bible, or the existence of any of the characters mentioned in it. I have to plead ignorance on this one.

I do have one simple question for you, which only requires a yes or no answer: Are you in favor of public stonings as a form of punishment for breaking the Ten Commandments? I'm reasonably sure N.M. is in favor of this, since she has dodged the question, but I'm not so sure about you.
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#39 of 57 Old 08-22-2003, 09:40 PM
 
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I am simply addressing the narrow issue of the claim that there is this 'lineage' that has our laws directly decended from Christianity.

In this whole case I just can't get past the fact that this Judge acted in a very underhanded manner from the word 'Go'. He WANTED to be the issue.
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#40 of 57 Old 08-22-2003, 10:56 PM
 
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I caught that and was concurring, essentially. Today was the first time I read of him sneaking in under dark of night etc... I had issues with this before and now I have enough to fill a magazine rack.
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#41 of 57 Old 08-22-2003, 11:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hilary
Daer MarlenaWhy should we, as Christians not do that?

I suspect you are not one, for if you were, you would understand that that is the core message of 1 Corinthians chapter 2, which culminates in a verse which says The whole purpose of Jesus coming was that if we so choose, we too can have the same sort of relationship with Christ (God) as Enoch and Elijah had with God. They WALKED WITH him.
It's true that I'm not a Christian. The experiences I've had with religion, however, have led me to believe that, if there is in fact a god, then those who believe that we, as mere humans, cannot comprehend the deity with our human minds are likely correct. Thus, I find more affinity with Jews and Muslims, among others, in this regard.
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#42 of 57 Old 08-23-2003, 12:36 AM
 
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He has been suspended.

Quote:
MONTGOMERY, Ala. (Reuters) - The Alabama chief justice who defied a U.S. court order to remove a monument of the Ten Commandments this week was suspended on Friday by a state panel that monitors judicial ethics.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...ion_alabama_dc

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#43 of 57 Old 08-23-2003, 01:33 AM
 
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I think I'll just check out of this discussion, and leave it to the theologians, since I am obviously out of my depth here.
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#44 of 57 Old 08-23-2003, 02:02 AM
 
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Wow.. I can't read the text but that is the first time I have seen it from that kind of angle. I had no idea it was so very "stone tablet from the mount" in design... if you follow me. The Moses one is interesting. I wonder what kind of discussion went into that.

In any case... the monument is far more religious in nature than I thought at first from reading descriptions of it. I thought it should go then and I am convinced of it now.
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#45 of 57 Old 08-23-2003, 02:37 AM
 
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hi all~
interesting about other 10 commandment & biblical statues. Of course, this isn't a new controversy, is it? I guess what I always understood was that as the case law developed & the amendment was interpreted, things like "Roy's Rock" became impermissible, but if they were already there, they were "grandfathered in". Doesn't that make sense?

Sorry if I'm not making sense, but the baby just cried for 2 1/2 hrs & is now asleep & I'm just trying to shake off the stress a little.
blessings, maria
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#46 of 57 Old 08-23-2003, 03:28 AM
 
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T

ten commandment discussion previously experienced here on mdc
http://216.92.20.151/discussions/sho...threadid=70050

founding fathers...mason's first?

http://216.92.20.151/discussions/sho...threadid=78453

Check out New Moon on my Astrology Site

http://tracyastrosalon.blogspot.com/

 

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#47 of 57 Old 08-23-2003, 10:20 AM
 
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supreme court washington, Moses with the ten commandments:

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com...ment_wx107.jpg
Please note who flanks him in the photo..........
Quote:
The east entrance's architrave bears the legend, "Justice the Guardian of Liberty." A sculpture group by Herman A. McNeil is located above the east entrance that represents great lawgivers, Moses, Confucius, and Solon, flanked by symbolic groups representing Means of Enforcing the Law, Tempering Justice with Mercy, Carrying on Civilization, and Settlement of Disputes Between States.
US Supreme Court


Let's put some equal displays right next to Moore's.................



What a shame that a man who has sworn to uphold the law will fly in the face of rulings that he doesn't agree with...............
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#48 of 57 Old 08-23-2003, 12:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Good point, Els, re other carvings on the Supreme Court building.

As for many of Hilary's quotes posted above, the concept of "natural law" was in vogue in the 18th (and much of the 19th) century. It is therefore unsurprising to find it cited with approval by individuals of that time. Now, however, it has (mercifully) gone the way of the dinosaur, at least in terms of modern jurisprudence.

Also, as I noted earlier, it is presently acceptable to make certain unobtrusive religious displays of, say, the Ten Commandments in a courthouse. I can think of at least one in one courtroom here in Houston, where they are framed on the wall along with a number of other, secular documents. The monument installed by Justice Moore, on the other hand, is not merely highly obtrusive, but also highly OFFENSIVE, both in its presentation and in its equation of the Ten Commandments as "THE LAW OF NATURE AND OF NATURE'S GOD."
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#49 of 57 Old 08-23-2003, 06:24 PM
 
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I've done some thinking about this issue, and I think what bothers me the most about it is that Judge Moore, under cover of darkness, covertly placed his memorial in a public building, knowing full well that it was the wrong thing to do. He knew, at the time, that he could never get the permission to place it there legally, so he just did it on his own. Imagine the arrogance, nay, the hubris of someone that would do something like that. It's an abuse of his position of power and authority. And now, he flouts the very laws which he was sworn to uphold. He should be stripped of his judgeship and be disbarred from the legal profession altogether. It is starting to seem that this whole thing is just a shameful publicity stunt. He is certainly doing no favors to people that claim to be Christians... what an embarassment for them.
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#50 of 57 Old 08-23-2003, 09:14 PM - Thread Starter
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the thing is, as I said at the beginning, no-one of any faith will find offence with the actual 10 commandments. A muslim could look at them, intellectually and say "Yup, I can go along with that" as can a Jew.
And what about the polytheists? I'd also ask about the atheists, as well, but you specified "of any faith".

You're right - we're on the same side, but for totally different reasons!
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#51 of 57 Old 08-24-2003, 12:37 AM
 
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hi all~
I agree with HB's last post completely, kind of what I was trying to say in some of my prev posts.
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It's an abuse of his position of power and authority.
And, what disturbs me even more than this one man, is the people who follow him. I saw a TV news blurb that showed a woman, holding her child, crying & saying that "it's not just the 10 Cs, God is being taken out of our country & it's a sign of the end times!" I felt so badly for her, really, my heart went out to her. Bcz here she is, fully convinced that something horrible is happening bcz people oppose this statue & here I am, fully convinced something horrible is happening because it's there.

Where & how can I find common ground with people like that woman? That is what really upsets me about this, that there is this whole segment of society that cannot accept that I am not a Christian without being threatened by me. To really say how I, as a non-christian, feel about the monument: it seems to me just another example of Christianity's (or should I say the Christian Right's or Fundamentalism's) super-aggressive, evangelical, beat-em-if-they-won't-join-you agenda.

I am watching closely to see what is going to happen next. I am very concerned about the "martyr" role that Judge Moore seems to want to play & worried that this whole little drama will further polarize our society.

blessings, Maria
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#52 of 57 Old 08-24-2003, 03:03 AM
 
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That was really well put Spiralwoman. And here's one for ya... how bad is it when I, as a Christian feel the same dread about my total lack of common ground with the woman you described. Not to mention that I fear attitudes like hers make it harder for you and I to find our common ground. Judge Moore is not going on my Christmas card list (which includes a subset of friends to be sent Yule or Solstice cards.)
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#53 of 57 Old 08-24-2003, 08:20 AM
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This thread is becoming more a discussion of Christianity and needs to return to the specific topic. I realize that some discussion of religious belief will necessarily enter into it but let's try, for the sake of keeping the thread open, to avoid it becoming the focus.

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#54 of 57 Old 08-24-2003, 04:06 PM
 
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trying to honor Cynthia's request... lets just be clear that no one person speaks for all Christians as Judge Moore and Hilary have proven. By not speaking for me at all.

Are they making plans to remove the thing? Are Moore's Minions lining up to chain themselves to it?
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#55 of 57 Old 08-24-2003, 05:27 PM
 
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If Moore's supporters had been anti-war protesters, or pro-choice demonstrators, you can bet the police and/or National Guard would have gassed 'em and clubbed 'em by now. I say disperse them now... and if a few martyrs have to be sent to heaven early, so be it.
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#56 of 57 Old 08-25-2003, 05:07 AM
 
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Thank you Hilary.
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#57 of 57 Old 08-25-2003, 11:53 AM
 
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In a court of law I don't think it matters what God thinks.


What matters is what the law says.


Why is it so easy to say Muslims should keep Shari'a out of their courts yet Americans are supposed to let a god into theirs............


Thinking this horse is dead.........I'm getting off.



El
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