Supreme Court Will Not Review Judge Moore's Case re Ten Commandments - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 57 Old 08-20-2003, 07:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Woohoo! I'm so glad rational minds and sound legal principles prevailed here.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2003Aug20.html

Quote:
The Supreme Court refused Wednesday to block the removal of a Ten Commandments monument from an Alabama judicial building, rejecting a last-minute appeal from the judge who installed the display.
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#2 of 57 Old 08-20-2003, 08:03 PM
 
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Thanks for the news.
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#3 of 57 Old 08-20-2003, 11:14 PM
 
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When I am appointed Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Maryland, one of my first acts in office will be to put up outside the courthouse a statue/tablet/other representational device of every God recognized by every major religion practiced by Maryland's residents. All 1,234,2456 of them. Gods (and goddesses) that is, not residents.

edited for some truly wacky grammar.

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#4 of 57 Old 08-20-2003, 11:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally posted by Nursing Mother

I'm listening to Judge Moore right now and he IS up holding Alabama's state constitution which FULLY RECOGNIZES God and Moore is sworn to uphold it and I believe he will at all cost.
Oh, for heaven's sakes. I just did a search, and other than oaths ("so help me God"), the Alabama Constitution mentions God once: in its preamble. Here it is:

Quote:
We, the people of the State of Alabama, in order to establish justice, insure domestic tranquillity, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish the following Constitution and form of government for the State of Alabama
Puh-leeze.

Incidentally, which god is it to which the preamble refers? Does it specify?

I'm beginning to think some folks ought to go declare their own theistic country - somewhere way over there - if they want church and state to be entwined.
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#5 of 57 Old 08-20-2003, 11:41 PM
 
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yes, Jane! A fabulous idea! Let's paint a mural, big and bold and beautiful, including every pantheon, deity, Goddess and God conceivable! I honestly think that would be awe-inspiring and might even bring the realization that this country is comprised of Christians, Jews, Hindus, Muslims, LDS, Pagan, Wiccan, Bahai, Buddhists, Humanists, Spiritualists, and more and more than I can name. I'm a painter! I'd like to take part in something like that. But then, where will the agnostics and the atheists be represented? They need to be heard too. Their voices are equally as important and they must be represented.

It would take a lot of space and a great mind to conceive of a design to include us all. (That's what the Constitution is striving for). God and not-God together make for a very large concept indeed.

I think the Declaration of Independence said it best: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal...

That means atheists, agnostics, and the faithful too. Nobody gets to hog the podium, at least they're not supposed too. Public space, particularly seats of government, need to be sanctuaries for all the people.
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#6 of 57 Old 08-21-2003, 12:02 AM
 
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I think if one religion is recognized then they all should be.

Uh...I think a mural on various religions would be kind of hard. I can go to a website and be made a diety, and then I could demand my pic in the mural as well. Well...that is if it was a state sponsored thing..

I just think it would be something that could easily get out of hand.

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#7 of 57 Old 08-21-2003, 12:26 AM
 
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I also saw Judge Moore on the news tonight. I thought he was mentally ill; he obviously needs psychiatric help. It's not right to have someone that is mentally unsound in a position of authority. People's lives can be destroyed by his rulings.
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#8 of 57 Old 08-21-2003, 12:37 AM
 
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Moore has scheduled a Thursday afternoon press conference at the Alabama Supreme Court to announce whether he will obey the court order to remove the sculpture.
If he doesn't take it out, he should be charged with contempt, and have his sorry ass thrown in jail.
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#9 of 57 Old 08-21-2003, 12:51 AM
 
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The following list delineates the crimes for which the offender is to be
stoned:

* 1st Commandment
Transgression/Other Gods Before Yahweh - Exodus 22:20; Deuteronomy 13:1-10;
17:2-5; Luke 19:27; Romans 1:30-32
* Witchcraft - Exodus 22:18; Leviticus 20:27
* Contempt of Court - Deuteronomy 17:5, 9-13
* 2nd Commandment
Transgression/Idolatry -
Exodus 22:20; Deuteronomy 13:1-10; Romans 1:30-32
* 3rd Commandment
Transgression/Blasphemy -
Leviticus 24:10-16, 23; John 10:30-33
* 4th Commandment
Transgression/Sabbath
Desecration - Exodus 31:14-15; 35:2; Numbers 15:32-36
* 5th Commandment
Transgression/Extreme
Cases of Child Rebellion - Exodus 21:15 (striking one's parents); Exodus
21:17, Leviticus 20:9 (cursing one's parents); Deuteronomy 21:18-23
(stubbornness, rebellion, gluttony and drunkenness); Romans 1:30-32
* 6th Commandment
Transgression/Murder -
Genesis 9:5-6; Exodus 21:12, 14, 28-31; Leviticus 20:2; 24:17, 21; Numbers
35:16-21, 30-31, 33-34; Deuteronomy 19:11-13, 21; Romans 1:29-324
* Kidnapping - Exodus 21:16; Deuteronomy 24:7
* Perjury in Capital Cases - Deuteronomy 19:16-21
* 7th Commandment Transgression/Adultery - Leviticus 20:10; Deuteronomy
22:22-24; John 8:3-5
* Homosexuality - Leviticus 20:13; Romans 1:26-32
* Incest - Leviticus 20:11-12
* Bestiality - Exodus 22:19; Leviticus 20:15-16
* Non-Virgin Deceitfully Marrying - Deuteronomy 22:13-24
* Rape - Deuteronomy 22:25-27

OK, hands up: who is in favor of public stonings for any of the above infractions??? Is this what Bob Dylan meant when he said "everybody must get stoned"?
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#10 of 57 Old 08-21-2003, 01:08 AM
 
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(nevermind.... NOT getting involved)
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#11 of 57 Old 08-21-2003, 01:45 AM
 
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I have been listening to this story (mostly on talk radio, admittedly), and the only thing that really runs through my head is...

"I hope that state money is not being wasted on this issue."

I can't imagine that AL has a glut of rainy-day funds in its coffers. One the one hand, it's not like our legal system even remotely enforces or follows the 10 commandments, so it seems like it tarnishes a set of very good guidelines to be associated with it. On the other, there are so many biblical references on 'official' US stuff, who gives a crap about one more. I bet nobody would have looked twice at that memorial if there wasn't a lawsuit, just like no conservative but John Ashcroft wigs out over statues of 'Justice' and other personifications of principles artfully depicted like greek statues.

Yes, yes, I know. Separation of church and state is a Really Important Issue. But sometimes I think both sides act pretty stupidly. Especially in matters involving PUBLIC MONEY.

Somebody please tell me there is no tax $$ being spent on this. :P
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#12 of 57 Old 08-21-2003, 09:53 AM
 
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I'd also like to see the judge thrown in jail, and to see him have to pay all legal costs associated with this fiasco, and have him have to pay for the removal of the hunk of rock. I'd also like to see him disbarred, since he has so little regard for the judicial system.

I'd have to think about the appropriateness of stoning him, but those references of HB's are compelling, given the logic of people who think like this "judge."

I would love to see all the other references to Christianity removed from public buildings in the US. I'm Christian, btw.
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#13 of 57 Old 08-21-2003, 10:45 AM
 
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ITA with HB. Let's stone him!!! (the judge, not HB. Although a few of you might wish to ........)


The 10 commandments are OT - the punishments are OT. I think it would fit well into the judge's plan.

The whole deal is a crock. Including all the references to god elsewhere............as if paying homage to god can get us something. 'Cause sure as hell we don't act like a christian nation..............


El
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#14 of 57 Old 08-21-2003, 10:48 AM
 
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BTW Hilary, we are not worried abt tax money spent on the plaque, it has been well documented that was the judge's own money, rather the money spent on the court time ad nauseum.
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#15 of 57 Old 08-21-2003, 10:57 AM
 
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We watched it last night. Seems very confusing..yet interesting.

If they remove this one, they should remove them all. If they let this one stay, all should stay.


The founding fathers came to America to escape religious persecution, and many of them were Deists, not Theists. They believed in equality for all religious and non-religious. Not just Christianity. If statues are going to be put up in our governement buildings, no one should have a problem with a statue of Buddha being put up either, or Greek Gods, or Pagan Gods/Goddesses.

Just my opinion.
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#16 of 57 Old 08-21-2003, 11:39 AM - Thread Starter
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NM, there are more respectable sources regarding the intent of the founding fathers - and how that intent must be malleable over time, in order to have a living constitution - than an online dictionary. You might want to start with the Federalist Papers, and go from there to the works of various constitutional scholars.

As many have already pointed out, many of the original white settlers in North America left their original countries to escape religious persecution, and did not want to see such persecution perpetuated on U.S. soil. Yet what you propose would in fact encourage religious persecution and demean those of all faiths, including Christians.

We do not live in a theocracy. If you wish to live in a theocracy, then feel free to join one of the various cult communes already in existence, or to start one of your own.
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#17 of 57 Old 08-21-2003, 11:44 AM
 
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for the supreme court.
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#18 of 57 Old 08-21-2003, 02:31 PM
 
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given it is all going down in alabama...

I wonder if that plaque would have helped stopped Slavery and Jim Crow laws..

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#19 of 57 Old 08-21-2003, 04:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Holy cats! I didn't realize it bore the inscription "LAW OF NATURE AND OF NATURE'S GOD" on it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/21/na...-JUDGE.html?hp

Wow, how offensive. And I can't imagine how anyone could think that wouldn't run afoul of the Establishment Clause.

Also
Quote:
I wonder if that plaque would have helped stopped Slavery and Jim Crow laws..
:LOL I believe the "Law of Nature" was presumed to entail that "colored" people were subservient to whites, if not altogether subhuman. An Old Testament passage was commonly cited in support; I forget which one, presently.
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#20 of 57 Old 08-21-2003, 04:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Marlena
Holy cats! I didn't realize it bore the inscription "LAW OF NATURE AND OF NATURE'S GOD" on it.

I just saw this on CNN. I'm a little shocked. Not very inclusive is it?
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When I win the lottery, I'll commissing a nice plaque (or better yet, a really cute/cool marble smiling buddha statue) of the Noble Eightfold Path.

Maybe the reason why the only time you hear of a fuss over religion in government buildings is because only Christian groups and individuals tend to waste money on stuff like this.

The Eightfold Path wouldn't be a bad precept to have floating around a DoJ building, now that I think on it. I wonder if the ACLU would come after my monument, and if the Christian folks would help defend my rights to religious expression too?

I can say I honestly don't know how either would turn out. I could see it going both ways, for each.
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#22 of 57 Old 08-21-2003, 08:56 PM
 
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Well, N.M. and NZ Hilary, I thought those OT citations were relevant, since, if I'm not mistaken, the Bible is the actual word of god. If you're really a true Christian, you must agree with this, otherwise you're just out here with the rest of us heathens and blasphemers. I don't think you can just pick and choose which parts of the Bible you agree with. It's really an all or nothing proposition.
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#23 of 57 Old 08-21-2003, 09:02 PM
 
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That's a load of nonsense Mr Briss.
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#24 of 57 Old 08-21-2003, 10:50 PM
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I guess I am kind of nonplussed by the "defenders of the faith" who are gathering around this monument, thinking they are doing it to make a statement for God. Seems like a waste of time to me.

Really, I am more concerned with what's written on people's hearts and minds, and in their lives, than in whats written in stone. I would rather stand up for justice, than for etchings.

Just musing here.

My mother (who makes me crazy sometimes) said today that the removal of this monument was proof of the "slippery slope to Godlessness." Well, besides being a empty, "pithy"catch phrase, it bugged me because I believe that this has ALWAYS (as I understand God) been somewhat of a Godless nation, its just manifested differently, at various stages in our history. Such as, maybe there was a time that we had these overt expressions of christianity, and prayer in schools and such, yet there were innocent people being lynched while the powers that be looked the other way. Maybe, instead of a deterioration, this could be a new inconoclasm, where we remove outward symbols and deal honestly with the issues facing ALL citizens. Wishful thinking, I guess.

To me its almost bordering on idolatry. I mean, people are gathered around this monument of stone, "protecting" it, and there are children hurting, hungry, old folks who need help, work to be done. Its kind of like if my husband chose to ignore the important needs around our home, and yet thought that he was being moral and upright because he tattooed my name on his arm.

And there are many religions here, we are not a homogenous society. Interestingly, even within Judism and different sects of Christianity, there are different versions of the ten commandments, which expands the argument of what to have written on public buildings even further.

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#25 of 57 Old 08-21-2003, 11:23 PM
 
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RIGHT ON, DEANNA!!!!
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#26 of 57 Old 08-22-2003, 04:10 AM
 
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We are such a schizophrenic country when it comes to this.

Yes, we were founded mostly by white Europeans of a Christian background, so Christianity and the Bible are still inextricably linked to our public life (on our coins, the chaplain in the Senate, etc). BUT, these same people were fleeing religious persecution in Europe and so came up with the revolutionary idea that the state should not favor any one religion over the other.

Probably they were thinking this would only apply to not favoring Methodists over Catholics. Probably they had no idea that immigration and the shrinking globe would reshape our demographics to the point where it means not favoring Christianity over Buddhism. Yet here we are. The law of unintended consequences.

Half the country wants to turn the clock back, to keep our nation "christian". I've heard the argument that because the majority of the public here is culturally christian, then these displays of christianity should be accepted. This ignores the fact that the pilgrims were a religious minority fleeing repression from the religious majority. Yes, our country was built on Christian principles, to some extent, but more so it was built on the principle that the MAJORITY MUST NOT BE ALLOWED TO IMPOSE ITS RELIGION ON THE MINORITY.

Me, I want to take this country forward, to follow through on the logical ramifications of our founding father's revolutionary concept of a state without any official religion. Personally, I do not feel threatened by christian displays, but I can see how some people of other religions might. They should all be removed (the displays, not the people). I reject the idea that this will impoverish our spirituality as a nation or lead us into a moral morass, as though only Christianity teaches morality or faith in God. I am all for encouraging spirituality and moral idealism in our public life, but this is not the way to do it. All it does is divide us.

And NM, with all due respect, this has nothing to do with the fact that our law is based in English common law which was based on the Bible. That is a matter for a historical museum, not a court of law. Did you hear Judge Moore speaking today? He did not mention English common law. What he did say is, "I cannot deny the God who created me!" (As if this is about him???) This is about those who want to keep America a Christian nation when it is increasingly becoming more diverse.
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#27 of 57 Old 08-22-2003, 06:01 AM
 
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Thoa, your post was very well put. Thank you for articulating so much of what I have been wanting to say here.
Quote:
Yes, our country was built on Christian principles, to some extent, but more so it was built on the principle that the MAJORITY MUST NOT BE ALLOWED TO IMPOSE ITS RELIGION ON THE MINORITY.
I would take this statement a step further & say that it is not a matter of protecting the minority from the majority, but actually protection for everyone not in power from those *in power*. Our constitution is all about protecting the masses from the tyranny of a powerful elite.

And in this case, Judge Moore is that powerful elite. He is using the power of his publicly elected office to express his personal beliefs, and by placing these beliefs in a public place those beliefs have state endorsement. I would say that the framers of the constitution had the prevention of exactly this situation in mind when they wrote the 1st amendment.

Of course, anyone, including an office holder like Judge Moore, is entitled to the free expression of their convictions. That is what the 1st amendment is all about. Judge Moore can tatoo the 10 commandments to his forehead if he likes, or hold court wearing a sandwich board outlining the Christian basis of his decisions. He can print up a flyer with all his Bible verses in it, or, let's be modern: even set up a web site! There is no end to the ways he can openly show respect to his God. After all, he was elected by the people of Alabama, they must like what he has to say. Put that monument in his front yard & invite people over. Freedom of speech, freedom of expression, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly.

To the supporters, ask yourself this: if I had a pretty statue of the Goddess & I snuck onto public property in your state one nite & erected it for all to see, would it get to stay? What if I showed up when you tried to move it & said, "hey I'm just expressing my religion & 1st amendment rights!" (Please admit that whether the framers were Christian or not is a moot point, the 1st amendment says "religion" not "Christianity") Wouldn't you look @ me & say "Hey heathen! I don't believe in your Goddess & I don't like statues of naked women in public, it's going! Put it on your own front lawn, it offends me & my religious beliefs just to see it there! And besides, that public place was paid for with my taxes too, not just yours!"

Also, I would like to ask this to Nursing Mother: don't you think this is some of this potential for discontent you were talking about in your post about a possible civil war? I never got a chance to post on that thread, but I agree with you, it is wrong to think "it can't happen here." If you look @ the wars & terrorism going on in the world now, aren't they all to some extent fueled by religion? Religious beliefs are so deeply held & often in conflict with the teachings of competing religions, don't you think that is why they are often the seeds of war? For this reason, it makes me so afraid to see Christians trying to move their personal religion into our public sphere. It seems like some are so extreme that they will even go to violent means to "express" their beliefs! In the name of peace, we simply cannot allow any religion to be sponsored by the state. Do you see what I'm saying?

BTW~
1st amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

blessings, Maria
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#28 of 57 Old 08-22-2003, 08:45 AM
 
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Hilary,
Your signature applies to ALL of us. Because we are all this way, or are you telling us that your eyes see something we don't?
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#29 of 57 Old 08-22-2003, 09:01 AM
 
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Who did it, and why? What was was the ramifications of that, for all who follow Jesus?
There you have it.


All who follow Jesus should display their symbols outside of the courtroom...................


(btw, I'm raised Catholic so I do know the diff btwn OT and NT)

El
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#30 of 57 Old 08-22-2003, 09:38 AM
 
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Sorry PD, I deleted what I said, because I wanted to see what answers I got.

In answer to your question, I ask you another one.

When confronted with Moses, why was it, that Pharoah didn't "get" what was going on?
This doesn't answer my question. It that you see something others don't?

You'll have to remember I once was a Christian.
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