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#61 of 86 Old 09-08-2003, 10:41 PM
 
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No, I was right: Israel gave the Palestinians living in E. J'lem at the time of the 1967 war a choice to become Israeli citizens. Here is how B'Tselem's website explains it:

Quote:
After the annexation, Israel conducted a census in these areas, and granted permanent residency status to residents in the annexed areas present at the time the census was taken. Persons not present in the city for whatever reason forever lost their right to reside in Jerusalem. Permanent residents were permitted, if they wished and met certain conditions, to receive Israeli citizenship. These conditions included swearing allegiance to the State, proving that they are not citizens of any other country, and showing some knowledge of Hebrew. For political reasons, most of the residents did not request Israeli citizenship. Setting the municipal boundary to run through neighborhoods and villages also created a distinction between Palestinians regarding their rights, since residents living in the unannexed area continued to be residents of the West Bank, and were subject to military rule.
The rest of B'Tselem's explanation of the citizenship status of Palestinian East Jerusalemites is here.

You know it's not so easy to get to the best way to solve this problem, or the best way to even think about this problem, when there are so many things to know and so many facts in dispute. (Though not, I hope, this one!)

To return to the question of who is killing whom where and why: It is quite disturbing that suicide bombers get counted as Palestinian casualties. (Though B'Tselem does not count them in its casualty list.) I'm not sure if I care whether the casualties are combatants or not. I think the big issue is that there are many more fatalities than before, including more Palestinians dying because of restrictions of movement blocking access to hospitals, more Israelis getting blown up on buses, and just more human beings. It also seems to me that everything is much worse since the Sharon administration, that these policies are bad for the Palestinians, bad for the Israelis, bad for everyone.

I know that a lot of these are policies that were initiated under other Israeli governments, I'm just saying that to me everything looks a lot worse than before...

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#62 of 86 Old 09-09-2003, 01:28 AM
 
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...I was "flabbergasted" that Thao was saying that the demolitions show a double standard.
urg... maybe I'm floating around in space here... what I meant by that if the Israelis are defending their right to build in the occupied territories while demolishing Palestinian houses in Israel proper, that it is a pretty blatant double standard. I guess it didn't come across right.

That's very interesting though, about the status of the E Jerusalem Palestinians. I didn't know any of that. Live and learn...
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#63 of 86 Old 09-09-2003, 01:37 AM
 
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"Israel proper" ... Thao, there's part of the complication. Technically, according to the UN and all sorts of everyone, East Jerusalem is part of the West Bank, so it's not "Israel proper."

And FWIW, I don't see why Israel has to retain the eastern part of Jerusalem, mostly Arab villages & suburbs, in a final settlement ... with the exception of the Old City and the Jewish cemeteries ...




C'O, thanks for the info regarding E. Jerusalem residents. I wasn't aware of that. My info stopped at '67.



And yes, everything does look worse than before. All over the world. And it's not just because the Israelis are run by a worse governing coalition than before. As with absolutely everything else, Israel's "worseness" is matched by Palestinian "worseness."




And it's going to get worse before it gets better.

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#64 of 86 Old 09-09-2003, 10:12 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Sorry I disappeared - 9 in-laws and 6 soccer games this weekend followed by a deadline I have to meet for tomorrow morning with a bunch of disorganized writers - uugghhh.

I guess I missed a good 2 pages of this discussion but :

It was nice to see NM acknowledge that Thao's POV had relevence.

dh2carmen - yeah we have some bitter fights over this issue but it's probably in our best interest to keep them pretty civil.

And Amy - I disagree (entirely, with everything) .






Quote:
I think one of the biggest fallacies of Israeli policy is the idea that what is bad for the Palestinians is good for Israel. That isn't right, though. That's the model if you are dealing with another state, in a traditional war. There are a lot of things that are good for the Palestinians that would be good for Israel. When you enter into negotiations with another party, you have to offer them something that will make them want to stop what they are currently doing, because the reward for stopping is greater than the benefit from what they are currently doing.
co- this is exactly it. I have a hard time with the beleif that Israel is taking the high moral ground when the policies are so clearly biased against all the Palestinains - not just the guilty.


Anyway - back on track - what about those settlements - why isn't the Israeli govt. willing to remove them? They are costing the Israeli govt. and people millions of $ esp. in the face of extremely weak economy - why not?
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#65 of 86 Old 09-09-2003, 11:15 AM
 
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I think it is important to recognize that both the Israeli and the Palestinian leadership are taking the "high moral ground" as you put it, and neither really deserves to be there. My thinking on this is, Israel is the stronger party, that's why they are doing more damage to the Palestinians. If the Palestinians were stronger, they would certainly kill more Israelis. As it is they have shown themselves willing to send young people in to blow themselves up and take civilians (typically always some babies ) with them.

I know that I have been arguing that Sharon is the source of all evil. That's because Sharon's government was a change for Israel and the PA admin. has not changed. They still have Arafat in charge, and did even when Abbas was the nominal PM. So if I'm saying that things are worse because of Sharon, it's because he's the leadership factor that has changed. I really do think he's extremely bad news, but I don't want to say that Arafat isn't part of the problem.

Quote:
Originally posted by 3boys4us

Anyway - back on track - what about those settlements - why isn't the Israeli govt. willing to remove them? They are costing the Israeli govt. and people millions of $ esp. in the face of extremely weak economy - why not?
As I posted up thread, I think it's the water. Even if there were political will, which there isn't right now, it would mean giving up the water source for Tel Aviv.

I'm reposting the link about the water in the West Bank. From the same site, This water expert had an idea about how Israelis and Palestinians could share this resource, 10 years ago.

I think it is always possible for this conflict to end if the negotiations can give both sides what they need:

1. total cessation of violence
2. access to water
3. freedom of movement sufficient for economic viability
(that means for both the PA and Israel--you can't say that Israelis have freedom of movement, either, if they are constantly worried about being bombed)
4. access to holy sites
5. co-operation between two state entities on some economic and access issues

On an NPR show, I heard Dr. Mustafa Barghouti (the brother of Marwan Barghouti, the PLO member that Israeli tried for terror-related activities). Dr. Barghouti talked about Israel and Palestine setting up an arrangement like Benelux (Belgium, Netherlands and Luxembourg.) It sounded so completely impossible and crazy that it made me cry. When's the last time that a Dutch person blew himself up on a Belgian bus? But on the other hand, I think that's what we should hope for. Because every other model looks terrible.

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#66 of 86 Old 09-09-2003, 05:53 PM
 
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Capt. O said:
Quote:
We have been talking about a conflict in which the Israeli army has killed over 2500 Palestinians in the last three years, and Palestinian terrorists have killed at least 800 Israelis in return.
Maybe I'm being picky, but this sentence really stood out to me - I know that the meaning could go another way - but it seems to imply that the Palestinians killed the Israelis "in return" - i.e. in retaliation - for their people being killed.

3boys4us:
Quote:
I have a hard time with the beleif that Israel is taking the high moral ground when the policies are so clearly biased against all the Palestinains - not just the guilty.
I think it is difficult to take a high moral ground when your friends and relatives are being murdered indiscriminately. Further, I believe it is difficult to make policies based upon the innocent Palestinians (as opposed to the actual suicide bombers and those training them and in the terrorist organizations) when the majority of Palestinians support terror against Israel, and rejoice at terrorist attacks against Jews (and Americans, for that matter) all over the world.

I do agree that it is not a black and white situation. And Capt. O, I do see a lot of your points. Still, though, I think you gave yourself a very good name - I do not share half of your optimism.


With respect,
me
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#67 of 86 Old 09-09-2003, 10:51 PM
 
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Me, thanks for pointing out that "in return"--it was sloppy wording. I don't really mean "in return"--there is a cycle there, but I didn't mean to make it seem like anyone's violence is justified or like it's all retaliatory.

I am an optimist, but not about this situation. This is the first time in quite awhile that I am forcing myself to read about Israel. I went from being totally well informed to trying not to listen when Sharon was elected. My husband stays up late into the night reading about Israel and trying to make me listen to what he's learning. We have actually had some arguments because I don't want to listen to all these terrible things.

Of course during the day today there were two suicide bombings. I was listening to the radio on my way home from work. I just find it hard to bear when I can see that there could be a way out. It's hard to bear anyway.


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#68 of 86 Old 09-09-2003, 11:16 PM
 
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I have a friend who lives right off of Emek Refaim (the street where one of the bombings took place today).

Capt. O - I know it wasn't what you meant, but I just wanted you to clarify it. And... when I say that I think you're optimistic, I mean that you are optimistic about how willing the Palestinian public is to actually enter into any kind of agreement with Israel. My understanding is quite different, based upon the indoctrination of hatred for Jews and Israel that occurs in the society at every level - school, mosque, etc. Which is why I don't think that there is much Israel can actually do to turn around the situation by itself. There has to be a willingness on the part of the Palestinians in power to stop demonizing Israel and Israelis.
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#69 of 86 Old 09-09-2003, 11:50 PM
 
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The last time I was in Israel I sublet an apartment in that neighborhood. I didn't know where the cafe was until I read your post and then I went to find the story.

In Ha'aretz, they ran a story about how one of the people killed was the head of the ER at the hospital where the wounded were taken. His daughter, who was about to get married, was also killed.

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#70 of 86 Old 09-10-2003, 12:44 AM
 
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Hmm, still so few takers on the the main point of the thread... i.e. if this is not a land grab ("facts on the ground") then why is the fence meandering along somewhat illogical paths (fencing in a Palestinian village rather than fencing it out) and why are the settlements the untouchable third rail of Israeli politics? Amy weighed in by saying she wouldn't mind seeing some of them go, and CO voted for water rights. Anyone else? Anyone think they should stay? Me&3, could you let us know what you think? And where is Beloved Bird when you need her, I'd like to hear what she has to say on this!

As far as I can see, dismantling settlements would save $$, save soldier's lives, and hand the Israelis a huge public relations victory if the Palestinians did not respond in kind somehow. Israel has suffered international criticism and even the loss of some loan guarantees or financial aid during the Bush Sr. administration because of their building activity. And still the march goes on...

Sorry to be so bull-headed on this questions, ladies, but I really would like to know if I am missing something important!
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#71 of 86 Old 09-10-2003, 12:58 AM
 
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Gotta get to bed, gotta get to bed... :LOL just wanted to respond before I do so to Thao...

I have to say that I do not know the ins and outs of the fence - i.e. I haven't seen the "layout" - does anyone have a link for me? Time is not on my side here... tia.

About the "settlements" - well, I believe that there are some towns people would consider "settlements," and I would consider, well, towns. But I do think that there is nothing wrong with coming to an agreement to uproot specific places for peace.

Personally, I don't think that it would cause the Palestinians to do anything differently... and I don't even think it would make Israel look "better" in the world community. JMHO.
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#72 of 86 Old 09-10-2003, 02:55 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by captain optimism
In Ha'aretz, they ran a story about how one of the people killed was the head of the ER at the hospital where the wounded were taken. His daughter, who was about to get married, was also killed.
I didn't know it until I clicked your link, but I knew that Dr. in Israel. Dr. David Appelbaum. His Terem clinic was literally a block from my first appt. in Jerusalem and he worked there regularly. He treated me when I was dehydrated in early pregnancy, sent me to the hospital with a sick baby, saw my daughter with a dislocated elbow. He was well known and well liked by all. What a loss.

Not to mention the tragedy of his daughter who was to be married the next day.
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#73 of 86 Old 09-10-2003, 03:10 AM
 
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Hmmm. Thao, I guess I get testy with comments like "settlements are the untouchable third rail of Israeli politics."

They have agreed to dismantle settlements. They have in the past dismantled settlements.

They (crazy them) insist on something reciprocal ... like an end to indiscriminate murder of civilians ... which was also part of the agreements.

This is called "land for peace." We'll give you land when you give us peace.




Why is an end to indiscriminate murder the "untouchable third rail" of Palestinian politics? Abu Mazen can insist that he will not crack down on terrorists ... which the PA was required to do from way back in the early '90s, and which it didn't do then, either ... and that's not ... what? A problem?



Any time the response is "but the settlements," that "but" right there says the settlements are a justification for bombing cafes and public buses. Which is just incomprehensible to me.



That image earlier in the thread of Dutch folks not blowing themselves up in Belgium buses (or whichever way around that was) is looming rather large right now.



/rant






Okay, enough from me. Same ground, over&over. Time for bed.
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#74 of 86 Old 09-10-2003, 03:52 AM
 
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Good heavens, I have NEVER said that the settlements are justification for the suicide bombings. Nothing justifies the killing of innocents. What I have said is, if dismantling the settlements could create better chances for peace (as well as other benefits) then why not do it?

I'm trying to keep this discussion on the level of what might work, not on the level of what's right or wrong or justified or unjustified. Because we know we won't get anywhere on that level...

Amy, where might I find information about dismantled settlements? The information I've read (mostly the NY Times) indicates that the "dismantled settlements" were usually abandoned mobile homes or towers, or at best very small groups. Tokens. But I have only been following this recently, I don't know about what went on before so I am willing to be educated.
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#75 of 86 Old 09-10-2003, 04:11 AM
 
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Thao - I believe that Amy is refering to the settlements that were abandonded as part of the peace agreements with Egypt in the Sinai.

I have much to say on the subject, but the hours is late and I want to think it through.

Personally, I think fences and settlements are all red herrings and diversionary tactics. There was no peace without the fence, there won't be peace with it. But it might help the security situation by making it harder for suicide bombers to cross into Israel proper. I think that the main objection to the fence, which basically runs along the old '67 lines is that the Palestinians are hoping for more territory than the old Jordanian territory. I've heard talk of wanting the Galilee (Arab majority there these days or nearly so) and such.

And no, I don't think that abandoning the settlements would bring peace either. Reciprocity is the name of the game and there are still too many that want to lay claim to all of Israel. Arafat included. Remember, he was offered 97% of the westbank and Gaza by Barak in the negotiations brokered by Clinton and Madame Albright. He rejected it out of hand and unleashed the current intifada.
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#76 of 86 Old 09-10-2003, 08:32 PM
 
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Hi Mom2six, thanks for responding. Do you know where I can find a map of the suggested boundaries from the Oslo process? 97% of the territory, yes, but I recall at the time thinking that it looked like swiss cheese with settlements here and there and the access corridors between them cutting up the territory to make it pretty unviable. And I think there were water right issues too. So I've got it in my mind that it was the settlements that tanked that deal, but this is all very vague in my mind so I could be wrong. I've looked for a map with my search engine but haven't been able to find one.

Anyway, I think I am asking my question wrong. You may very well be right that dismantling the settlements would not lead to peace. It's all conjecture on our part, no one can know. What I am curious about is, what is the rationale for continuing settlement building? Given that it is viewed as hostile activity by the Palestinians, and even some Israeli soldiers are getting disgruntled about having to protect them, why is the building still going on? The only answer I can come up with is "land and water grab" but I am aware that there is always two sides to a story and I would like to hear the other side.
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#77 of 86 Old 09-10-2003, 10:27 PM
 
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Frontline did a great piece last year, Shattered Dreams of Peace, which also has a companion website: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl.../synopsis.html

Map of major settlements in the West Bank (maps a'plenty at this site): http://www.mideastweb.org/map_israel_settlements.htm

Interesting abstract on the settlements and their 'role' in the media: http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_pr...&x_article=259

Slightly stacked, but good overview of the fence issue from the CS Monitor here http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0808/p....html?worldNav and here http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0905/p01s03-wome.html
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#78 of 86 Old 09-11-2003, 04:02 AM
 
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Thank you, Rowan's dad, I especially like the mideastweb site. Maps galore indeed!

I'm working tonight :-( but will read them carefully when I get the chance...
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#79 of 86 Old 09-11-2003, 10:53 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Sorry Rd I don;t agree with your links -

MidEastWeb.org and Camera.org are both pro-israeli.

Try Tikkun (which Deirdre has always pushed) on The Wall must Fall

or try using the The Independent (UK) for a different viewhttp://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/
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#80 of 86 Old 09-11-2003, 11:37 PM
 
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3boys4us, will agree with your assessment of Camera, and they make no bones about it.

MidEastWeb actually gets me mad on occasion (though it is a thorough site) so they must not be pro-Israel.

:LOL
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#81 of 86 Old 09-12-2003, 12:28 AM
 
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by 3boys4us
[B]Sorry Rd I don;t agree with your links -

Rene

Sooooooo, is Frontline and the CSMonitor pro-Israel too? That may come as a surprise to the folks at Camera:
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_co...&x_article=531

Sheeeesh. Might wanna oil that knee jerk you've got there Rene!

The links we provided to help Thao possibly suss out some answers/ideas to her questions at the end of her post (the one before mine).

I'll grant you that the Camera folk are purty vociferous in their defense of Israel and how it is portrayed in the media but I've got a soft spot for their skewering of Christopher Hedges piece in Harpers a couple of years ago: http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=6&x_article=4
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#82 of 86 Old 09-12-2003, 10:09 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Sooooooo, is Frontline and the CSMonitor pro-Israel too? That may come as a surprise to the folks at Camera:
You know that they are considered pro-Israel and that several mainstream news orgs have stopped using Camera and that Camera is listed on several pro-Israel lobbies: The America's Pro-Israel Lobbyand Kahane.org (a website devoted to the late Rabbi Kahane). Stanford and FAIR.org both have Camera listed as a pro-Israel new media group . or perhaps better described as a news monitering website devoted to anti-Israeli bias.

MidEastWeb.org is more balanced I admit.

I have no problems with CS minitor and Frontline. My problem is sometimes I like to check references before I go off.
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#83 of 86 Old 09-12-2003, 10:26 AM
 
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So WHAT if they are pro-Israel? Does that ipso facto mean they're "wrong"?

Again, Thao had asked generally why, if the settlements et al., were costly to Israel in blood and treasure, were they not being dismantle.

The link was provided for a pro-Israel perspective.
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#84 of 86 Old 09-12-2003, 11:57 AM
 
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Mideast web= CAMERA?

What?

The MidEast Web includes Israelis and is not anti-Israel, but they do criticize the Israeli government and they are pro-peace and in favor of the rights of Palestinians to self-determination and a state. They have a lot of both Israeli and Palestinian peace activists writing for their site. I think you should examine what they say about themselvesbefore you compare them to CAMERA.

CAMERA is a pro-Israel group that criticizes the media, mainly the media in the US. Their litmus test for being pro-Israel is so narrow that they are ridiculous. For example, they complain if a network reports on Israeli casualties of suicide bombings without using the word "terror."

In general I tend to trust groups that include Israeli and Palestinian peace activists. They are most concerned with what is happening on the ground, and least likely to totally demonize either Israelis or Palestinians. I also read the Israeli and Palestinian press websites. (I don't read Arabic but there is a lot of stuff available in English. )

Also, you should know that anyone can link to anything, so being linked by ultra-right-wing fanatics or whomever doesn't say anything. At least not to me.

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#85 of 86 Old 09-13-2003, 12:06 AM
 
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Timely editorial in today's NYTimes:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/12/opinion/12FRI1.html

In particular:

"Consider the cost. At a time when Israel is suffering soaring unemployment, a slashing of welfare benefits and a crisis in its state education budget, it is devoting hundreds of millions of dollars to the roads, housing and security needed for 235,000 settlers. They enjoy mortgage subsidies, aid to build and maintain schools and clinics, and whole army units for their defense, since they are such ripe targets for terrorists."
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#86 of 86 Old 09-13-2003, 04:58 AM
 
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And this, from the abovementioned article:
Quote:
The longer Israelis continue to settle in the West Bank and Gaza, the harder it will be to cleanly divide the land between two nations with separate identities. Talk of two states will end. Two options will remain: an apartheid state run by a heavily armed Jewish minority, or a new political entity without a Jewish identity.
I completely agree. I remain puzzled as to why anyone thinks the settlements are a good idea.
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