Avraham Burg essay - Mothering Forums
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#1 of 86 Old 09-03-2003, 09:49 AM - Thread Starter
 
3boys4us's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: rhode island
Posts: 1,554
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
This is a great essay by the former head of the Knesset as to why the current Israeli govt's. policies are failing.

Quote:
....It turns out that the 2,000-year struggle for Jewish survival comes down to a state of settlements, run by an amoral clique of corrupt lawbreakers who are deaf both to their citizens and to their enemies. A state lacking justice cannot survive. More and more Israelis are coming to understand this as they ask their children where they expect to live in 25 years. Children who are honest admit, to their parents' shock, that they do not know. The countdown to the end of Israeli society has begun......
http://www.forward.com/issues/2003/03.08.29/oped3.html

Here is another article about the "security fence":

Quote:
When Moayad Hussain faces Israel's vast new "security fence" toward the beginning of its meandering journey through the occupied territories - which the Israeli government envisages will end nearly 400 miles later with almost the entire Palestinian population encircled - he is not looking out from the West Bank but into it. The fence carving through Baqa al-Sharqia's olive groves places the village and its 4,000 Palestinian residents on the Israeli side of the wire.

"We have asked ourselves the same question many times," says Hussain. "If the fence is for security, if the fence is to keep us out, then why aren't we on the other side? With every kilometre of fence [prime minister Ariel] Sharon builds we are sure there is only one answer. This is not about security, it's about land and resources."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,38...103552,00.html
3boys4us is offline  
#2 of 86 Old 09-03-2003, 10:50 AM
 
merpk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 14,887
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Interesting counterpoints.

I respect Burg a lot, and his political affiliation ... were I an Israeli citizen ... would probably be mine (Meimad originally). That said ... it should be pointed out that his condemnation is of current policy and government failures, and is pointedly not a condemnation of Zionism itself.

As he is a fervent Zionist himself ...




Regarding the fence, I was wondering why it's rarely come up here.

I'm looking forward to a few minutes to research the current planned placement of the fence and actually where the population centers are.

Remember that the bulk of the fence leaves Israel with a fence on one side, the sea on the other ... and the Palestinians with the fence on one side, and the rest of their Arab brethren in the Middle East and Asia on the other.

Just something to think about.



(Particularly since the word "ghetto" was first used to refer to walled-in enclaves where Jews were forced to live ... well, sounds like the Jews are returning themselves voluntarily to the ghetto, between the fence and the sea ...)



Oh, and the other point off the top of my head ... it is a fence. It is (in theory, anyway) made with the potential of moving it in mind.







And lastly ... since nothing else seems to be making those neighbors more neighborly, well ... good fences make good neighbors. And even not-so-good fences make good neighbors.

And if the fence deters even one suicidal jackass who wants to blow up a busload of kids coming from holy sites (along with their parents), well, good for the fence.




Stop the murder, then stop the fence.


Whew, that was a calm rant, now, wasn't it.
merpk is offline  
#3 of 86 Old 09-03-2003, 12:48 PM
 
mahdokht's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: the growing place
Posts: 4,564
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
***.
mahdokht is offline  
#4 of 86 Old 09-03-2003, 02:15 PM
 
merpk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 14,887
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
So here we go again, right?




Rash ranting doesn't explain the situation. Remembering that if the Palestinian's patrons themselves would've accepted a Palestinian state 50-some-odd years ago, they would be celebrating their 50-some-odd anniversary this year.

Remembering that the only reason the oppression ever came about in the first place was nonstop murder of Israelis over the Israeli border ... and that the issue then wasn't settlements and oppression, it was simple existence ...




As I've said, I respect Mr. Burg and his views, and share many if not most of them. However, the insistence that Israel is the cause of this and will be the only one to have to move to end it is outright false.





And the cease fire ... how pathetic that was, wasn't it. Glad to hear some people felt safe.

Fact is, that instead of 50-60 attacks or attempted attacks against Israel a day, it went down to 10-20.

Now what in heck kind of cease fire is that? Sounds like a semi-cease fire, or perhaps a cease-some-of-the-fire to me.





And you know what? Even before the cease fire Israelis gathered on occasions. The Bereishis and Boombamela festivals and Israeli Rainbow gatherings happened like clockwork, all through the current intifada, along with other events. Not because they suddenly felt "safe" due to some half-baked cease fire, but because life goes on even though someone somewhere would like very much to kill you ...






Oh, and perhaps if Mr. Abbas or anyone else would crack down on terrorists and their backers and supply lines ... as they are required to do by the "road map," and as they were required to do by Oslo, and as they were required to do by the Wye River Accords but have never done ... then no one else would have had to do it for them. And that's what Israel's actions during that cease fire were.




Perhaps if Mr. Abbas is so concerned about a civil war, he should read up on Israel's early history as a state, and the Altalena incident. If he were to be firm about it, and instead of saying "oh, you stop that terrorism now," while at the same time refusing to do anything about it ... well, maybe he might succeed. Just maybe. But do nothing, get nothing.






And that was not a calm rant, was it.
merpk is offline  
#5 of 86 Old 09-03-2003, 02:27 PM
 
crazy_eights's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Nisht ahir un nish aher
Posts: 6,837
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally posted by mahdokht
IThe Israeli army is just as guilty of the murder of innocent people as any palestinian suicide bomber.
I am not even sure where to begin with how twisted this statement is. This is a war. There is a *huge* difference between the casualties of war and those that target women and children on a bus. Or buying pizza. Or grocery shopping. Or whatever.

I am not going to get into an arguement of whose blood is redder, but that you can't see a difference between these two things speaks loads. I'm sorry. I'm disgusted.
crazy_eights is offline  
#6 of 86 Old 09-03-2003, 02:30 PM
 
merpk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 14,887
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Oh, and you're right, can't fire missiles at cars. Can't blow up pizza parlors and busses and claim to want peace and coexistence, either.

Can't ignite a bomb at one side of the street and then time another one to go off when the rescue personnel arrive and claim to want peace and coexistence, either.




And those Palestinian ambulances have regularly been carriers of arms and munitions, as has been documented by the press, too. And not just Israeli or "right wing" press.




And we won't even begin to talk about the incitement, and what is taught to Palestinian children, again in direct contravention of all previous accords ...

Report with videos about indoctrination to suicide bombings
Report about schoolbooks used by PA





So anyway. Now can we go back to the fence?
merpk is offline  
#7 of 86 Old 09-03-2003, 03:03 PM
 
mahdokht's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: the growing place
Posts: 4,564
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
***
mahdokht is offline  
#8 of 86 Old 09-03-2003, 03:28 PM
 
captain optimism's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Good Ship Lollipop
Posts: 7,462
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Could you all stop? It's bad enough watching the Israelis and the Palestinians getting jerked around by their horrible leadership, we don't have to get jerked around too. If we want peace there, our first step has to be peace here.

No more arguing about who is worse, please. They're both worse, okay? There isn't anybody with clean hands.

If you want to talk about what we could do to stop the escalation, I'm all about that.

The fence will make a big difference, a negative difference for both sides. It will carve up Palestinian land and make it impossible for there to be a viable two-state solution. Some in the US and some in Israel think that would be good for Israel. I don't. I think it's the key to decades more terror attacks. Yes, Arafat could stop the terror, but why should he when it's his excuse to periodically repress his opposition?

Avraham Burg is right. So were the Palestinian intellectuals who issued an anti-suicide bombing statement last summer. I'm with these people. Yes, the peace movements on both sides are shrinking. That's our fault, because we can't even talk about it without trying to argue that one death is worse than another.

Divorced mom of one awesome boy born 2-3-2003.
captain optimism is online now  
#9 of 86 Old 09-03-2003, 03:30 PM
 
crazy_eights's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Nisht ahir un nish aher
Posts: 6,837
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally posted by mahdokht
Oh yes, this is war. War is hell. When palestinians are targeted or murdered its justified in the name of self-preservation. When israeli's die its an outrageous offense against all that is right. Puleeze. .
Excuse me. Yes, when Israelis civilians are targeted it is an outrageous offense against all that is right. That you can't see that is warped.

The only Palestinians that are targeted are murderers. That you can't make that distinction, again, speaks loads.
crazy_eights is offline  
#10 of 86 Old 09-03-2003, 03:37 PM
 
crazy_eights's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Nisht ahir un nish aher
Posts: 6,837
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally posted by captain optimism
That's our fault, because we can't even talk about it without trying to argue that one death is worse than another.
Cap. O.

I'm sorry. No, I am not going to stop decrying what I see as a moral outrage - the equation being made between murder of innocents and targeted killing of terrorists. That most sit back an accept such a false equation only leads to further bias.
crazy_eights is offline  
#11 of 86 Old 09-03-2003, 03:56 PM
Banned
 
dh2Carmen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 33
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
This situation seems endless and I know that is a dumb comment but my exasperation prevents logic sometimes!

Both sides have blindness. I don't know who/what could make them see.

Mom2six, with all this discussion of violence, that picture of your son being hit over the head is just so difficult to watch over and over!! Maybe this all starts with each of us, holding peace in our homes, loving our kids. That eye on that cartoon being batted about by the mallet on the head hurts to see as a representative for a child. Hard to take.
dh2Carmen is offline  
#12 of 86 Old 09-03-2003, 04:11 PM
 
BelovedBird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: HOME!! Northern Israel
Posts: 3,505
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
The Israeli army is just as guilty of the murder of innocent people as any palestinian suicide bomber.
Not!
In your own example the target was a hamas terrorist. Which suicide bomber was targeting a terrorist and accidentally (by their own claims) hit innocents? No thats right the palestinian terrorist organisation call in to claim "credit" for the bombings.

dh2- its called a smilie or an emoticon. Get real. It is not a "picture" of Chava's anything.
:

-BelovedBird

Mom of 5 boys- 13, 10, 8, 2 : and newbie Aug. 24th, '09 . babywearing advocate . Cook, baker, homemaker, wife to a man with another woman's kidney (live altruistic, unknown donor).
BelovedBird is offline  
#13 of 86 Old 09-03-2003, 04:34 PM
 
merpk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 14,887
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
And while I don't think the murder of Israeli soldiers is any less horrific, notice that we're not even talking about attacks on army checkpoints or soldiers waiting at bus stops ...

No.

Suicide bombers target shopping malls, open-air markets, nightclubs, pizza parlors, college cafeterias, Passover seders, and public busses.

This is not "whose blood is redder." This is talking about directly and specifically targeting civilians as opposed to anything even vaguely military.

If the suicide bombers were only targeting military objectives, then this discussion would be very different. Even though military objectives, just because of Israel's size, are invariably near civilians. Because that would be attacking military objectives with "collateral damage." Yes, a horrible concept, but morally in a whole different league.

Just spelling it out in case it's not clear ...







And if anyone's not comfortable with someone's signature line and choice of smilies, it could be pointed out elsewhere without trying to connect it somehow to discussions of violence ... really.
merpk is offline  
#14 of 86 Old 09-03-2003, 06:02 PM
 
mahdokht's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: the growing place
Posts: 4,564
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
***
mahdokht is offline  
#15 of 86 Old 09-03-2003, 06:07 PM
 
mahdokht's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: the growing place
Posts: 4,564
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
****
mahdokht is offline  
#16 of 86 Old 09-03-2003, 06:44 PM
 
crazy_eights's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Nisht ahir un nish aher
Posts: 6,837
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I know Madokht has left the forum....

But in case she checks back in, I ask, "do you have the same lack of distinction between those murdered by moslem terrorists on Sept. 11 and those unfortunates caught in the crossfire during the liberation of Afganistan from Taliban rule?"

It would seem to me that according to your logic the two are one and the same.
crazy_eights is offline  
#17 of 86 Old 09-03-2003, 06:50 PM
 
crazy_eights's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Nisht ahir un nish aher
Posts: 6,837
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally posted by dh2Carmen
Mom2six, with all this discussion of violence, that picture of your son being hit over the head is just so difficult to watch over and over!! Maybe this all starts with each of us, holding peace in our homes, loving our kids. That eye on that cartoon being batted about by the mallet on the head hurts to see as a representative for a child. Hard to take.
DH2 - Seeing as you are new here, I find it extremely presumptive of you to assume anything about what might be going on in my home. The implication that "peace begins at home" or I need to start loving my kids is over the top. You know nothing about me or my children or my home.

NEWSFLASH - IT'S A JOKE. My boys are 18 mos apart and sibling rivalry is alive and well where we live. If you can solve that problem perhaps you can solve the Israeli/Arab conflict, too.

Editted to add: Btw- my older 5 kids picked out which emoticon represented them. So perhaps you should take it up with my 9 and 11 year old.
crazy_eights is offline  
#18 of 86 Old 09-03-2003, 08:32 PM
 
BelovedBird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: HOME!! Northern Israel
Posts: 3,505
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally posted by mahdokht
"The charred flesh of dead palestinian children is just as much of an insult to humanity and to morality, just as repulsive to God as the flesh of jewish ones. "

But since the concensus is that this simply isn't the case, then there really is nothing to discuss.
Oh please! Noone has said that. There is no such concensus. The only concensus is that attacks intentionally targeting civilians is worlds away from and cannot be compared to attacks targetting people who are trying to kill other people.

-BelovedBird

Mom of 5 boys- 13, 10, 8, 2 : and newbie Aug. 24th, '09 . babywearing advocate . Cook, baker, homemaker, wife to a man with another woman's kidney (live altruistic, unknown donor).
BelovedBird is offline  
#19 of 86 Old 09-03-2003, 09:37 PM - Thread Starter
 
3boys4us's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: rhode island
Posts: 1,554
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Well since I'm the OP let me explain myself - the reason I picked the essay was that it was GOOD - it is something we don't often get to read in the US. It wasn't putting down Zionism (in fact I think the author is a strong zionist). I liked his thoughts. They were critical of the current Israeli govt. which has done less for the well-being of Israel then any other (except perhaps Sharon's first go-around). Why can't we discuss/argue the points as opposed to being called names?

And before I am hit with the Arafat hammer, I do not think he's any better. But Abbas is trying.

I just would like to see some different (Israeli) points of view then the ones we currrently get hand fed.

I'd also like to see some more different Palestinian points of view as well.

Regarding the fence - if it is about peace - why not allow the Palestinians to keep their farmland - their livelihood? Could poverty be considered peaceful?

Overall my real point was this - if after nearly 50 years of violence by both sides (Israel and the Occupied Territories) - with one side clearly being labeled as "terrorists" and the other as "victims" how can the US expect to do any better in Iraq or Afghanistan?
3boys4us is offline  
#20 of 86 Old 09-04-2003, 12:12 AM
 
merpk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 14,887
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Agreeing with BB ... mahdokht, nobody said that. Nobody. Guaranteed that everybody involved in this discussion is as horrified by the deaths of Palestinian children as you are.

We're talking about the actual intent of those who've done the killing. That is the heart of this ...

And for an actual breakdown of the actual number of those killed, their ages and genders, all graphed out ... last updated in May, so it doesn't include all the fatalities since ... here is a study conducted about that very subject.

Everyone's blood is red. And all are G-d's creation.




And 3boy4us, I agree with you again ... ... twice in one month, man, what's goin' on here? :LOL
merpk is offline  
#21 of 86 Old 09-04-2003, 12:38 AM - Thread Starter
 
3boys4us's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: rhode island
Posts: 1,554
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I have to go to sleep and but will add more tomorrow:

Quote:
And 3boy4us, I agree with you again ... ... twice in one month, man, what's goin' on here?
I know - it's a little spooky - now what shall we argue about?
3boys4us is offline  
#22 of 86 Old 09-04-2003, 01:36 AM
 
crazy_eights's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Nisht ahir un nish aher
Posts: 6,837
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally posted by merpk
And for an actual breakdown of the actual number of those killed, their ages and genders, all graphed out ... last updated in May, so it doesn't include all the fatalities since ... here is a study conducted about that very subject.
Amy - that is amazing (and enlightening) information. I hope everyone takes a look at that link to see the break down.
crazy_eights is offline  
#23 of 86 Old 09-04-2003, 10:08 AM - Thread Starter
 
3boys4us's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: rhode island
Posts: 1,554
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Well I slept and looked at your link Amy -

since it is run by the former head of Mossad and has a staff consisting of almost entirely of former civilian/miltary Israeli govt. officials - I think I'll pass.

I'd rather use this - B'tselem - a joint human rights organzation of Israelis and Palestinians:

Quote:
In the Occupied Territories

2,115 Palestinians were killed by Israeli security forces in the Occupied Territories, of whom 389 were minors under the age of 18.

Ages of the minors killed: Seventy Two minors were age 17, Sixty Nine were age 16, Fifty Five were age 15, Fifty Three were age 14, Forty Four were age 13, Eighteen were age 12, Fourteen were age 11, Twelve were age 10, Six were age 9, Twelve were age 8, Four were age 7, Five were age 6, Four were age 5, Four were age 4, Six were age 3, Four were two years old, Five were One year old babies, One was a 6 month old baby girl and One was a four month old baby girl.

Within Israel

48 Palestinians, residents of the Occupied Territories, were killed by Israeli security forces gunfire. One of those killed was a minor aged 14.

346 Israeli civilians were killed by Palestinians, residents of the Occupied Territories. 70 of them were minors under the age of 18. Of them: Twelve were age 17, Thirteen were age 16, Fourteen were age 15, Six were age 14, Four were age 13, Three were age 12, One was age 11, One was age 10, One was age 9, Two were age 8, Two were age 7, One was age 5, Two were age 4, Two were age 3, One was an Eighteen month old baby, One was a 14 month old baby, One was a two years old baby, One was an Eleven month old baby, One was a nine month old baby, and One was a seven month old baby
But enough of the "who's dying faster"

I wanted to debate the points of the article - which I guess you can't do.

http://www.btselem.org/

I guess we have something to argue about still -

And finally - I am always surprised by those who pull up these links and still don't look at who's supplying them.
3boys4us is offline  
#24 of 86 Old 09-04-2003, 10:33 AM
 
Els' 3 Ones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: An American Gulag
Posts: 3,790
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I was put off also by the amt of military ppl who make up this organization..............

The People Behind ICT


As for the numbers (below are their most recent totals), they do tell a story. The story that BOTH sides are losing many children. Many innocent children. And, as we well know, both sides are angry. Will more killing by both sides stop the killing?

Breakdown of Fatalities: 27 September 2000 through 31 August 2003



And a fence can make good neighbors................provided you don't put it up on my property.


El
Els' 3 Ones is offline  
#25 of 86 Old 09-04-2003, 12:49 PM
 
BelovedBird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: HOME!! Northern Israel
Posts: 3,505
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
I wanted to debate the points of the article - which I guess you can't do.
I thought this community was not for debating.

And personally, I can't or I won't debate the article. It ends up the same thing. I live in eretz yisrael, I happen to also be a citizen of the state of Israel. I want peace. I don't kill anyone. I don't run the government. I don't agree with everything they do, but as a stupid immigrant my opion doesn't count for much.
I got involved in this "discussion" because I saw one point that I totally disagree with. and I don't see it as a matter of opinion.

Anyway, enjoy your debate.

-BelovedBird

Mom of 5 boys- 13, 10, 8, 2 : and newbie Aug. 24th, '09 . babywearing advocate . Cook, baker, homemaker, wife to a man with another woman's kidney (live altruistic, unknown donor).
BelovedBird is offline  
#26 of 86 Old 09-04-2003, 03:38 PM
 
merpk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 14,887
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Sorry to tell you, El's, but every single organization in Israel is filled with former military and Mossad people. Including Shalom Akhshav (Peace Now) and B'Tselem. Because of the state of war Israel's been in for the last 50+ years, there is a draft, you know.

And second, what does that have to do with cold, hard numbers?

The point is most easily observable in the pie charts.

The point is the moral equivalence being batted around so cavalierly, that a government attempting to eliminate a terrorist organization (or two or three or four) is different than a terrorist organization (or two or three or four) attempting to eliminate Jews wherever they happen to find them.





And debate Burg's article? Nothing to debate. He's disgusted with the Likud's government, as many are. Me, too. But I'm not an Israeli citizen, so who cares what I think. He's the opposition, and has every right to trash his government as the Democrats do to the Republicans here.

Having been "speaker of the Knesset" doesn't mean he was part of the ruling coalition (party, in American terms). It means he was speaker of the Knesset. And still the opposition.

Remembering, ladies, that there are also Arabs ... Israeli citizens ... in the knesset, too.

All hail democracy.

And his point that the Likud's sucking up to all types has led to a real breakdown in all sorts of societal infrastructure and moral compass is a solid one.

Then again, Peres sucked up to Arafat ... and remember how Madeline Albright made an ass out of herself doing that, too? ... and look where it got us all ... :LOL ... Likud doesn't have the monopoly on that huge sucking noise ...


















We can still debate the fence, though ...
merpk is offline  
#27 of 86 Old 09-04-2003, 04:01 PM
 
Els' 3 Ones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: An American Gulag
Posts: 3,790
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
We can still debate the fence, though ...
not if you just built it on my land.


El
Els' 3 Ones is offline  
#28 of 86 Old 09-04-2003, 05:01 PM
 
merpk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 14,887
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
... by Els' 3 Ones
... not if you just built it on my land. ...


El



Aaahhh, and the cycle continues ...




Well, which is whose land? If the fence followed precisely on the '67 lines, would that be encroaching on Palestinian land?

And if not, why not?

After all, the '67 borders are the arbitrary borders of the cease fire at the end of the '48 war. What's so holy about those lines?

Or would only the borders of the '47 partition plan work? And those were imposed by a UN commission ...

Or would the only ideal solution be to ... what?




The whole purpose of this is to stop terrorists getting wholesale easy access over Israel's borders and murdering indiscriminately.



So what should Israel do to stop it?


Pull out of the settlements?

Okay, but when there were no settlements, terrorists had wholesale easy access over Israel's borders and murdered indiscriminately. So what should Israel have done then? Made a fence? Or maybe the settlements aren't the problem, since the terrorists were doing the same thing when no settlements existed.


Hand over control of land to the PA?

Recall that throughout Oslo Israel continuously handed over control of land to the PA, so that large swaths of it had no Israeli presence. And throughout it, the suicide bombings continued, so obviously that wasn't the problem.


Stop all military action against terrorists, or reprisals?

Remember also there were long stretches of restraint, even during Sharon's tenure. And restraint, and restraint, and the attacks against Israeli civilians would continue. Until what? Should Israel just sit back and say, "Go ahead, keep exploding bombs and killing our people, we won't do anything to stop you or deter you, because we don't want to upset you?"

Seems like they're upset already, right?

So what should Israel do when it has information about a leader of Hamas?





It goes round and round, right?





So what should Israel do?




Really, I want to know what you think, how they can get the murdering to stop.

Will making the West Bank completely Judenrein make it stop? Or what?



Really, I'd like to know.
merpk is offline  
#29 of 86 Old 09-04-2003, 10:47 PM - Thread Starter
 
3boys4us's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: rhode island
Posts: 1,554
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Pull out of the settlements?

Okay, but when there were no settlements, terrorists had wholesale easy access over Israel's borders and murdered indiscriminately. So what should Israel have done then? Made a fence? Or maybe the settlements aren't the problem, since the terrorists were doing the same thing when no settlements existed.
But the settlements were created by extremists to begin with. It has been repeatedly affirmed by the UN and its members time and again that these settlements are illegal. Israel puts itself in company of China and the occupation of Tibet or Indonesia and the the occupation of East Timor or the former Soviet Union and its occupation of many nations.

Quote:
Hand over control of land to the PA?

Recall that throughout Oslo Israel continuously handed over control of land to the PA, so that large swaths of it had no Israeli presence. And throughout it, the suicide bombings continued, so obviously that wasn't the problem.
What large swaths? I don;t recall Israel ever offering the PA anything more then blocks of land that are surrounded by Israeli land. Roni Ben-Efrat critiques Oslo and noted that it contained nothing to offer the Palestinian people. She noted that unless the US stopped subsidizing Israel, Israel could continously build settlements and deny rights to the Occupied Territories.


Quote:
Stop all military action against terrorists, or reprisals?

Remember also there were long stretches of restraint, even during Sharon's tenure. And restraint, and restraint, and the attacks against Israeli civilians would continue. Until what? Should Israel just sit back and say, "Go ahead, keep exploding bombs and killing our people, we won't do anything to stop you or deter you, because we don't want to upset you?"
Please - Sharon is not a man of peace. He's just as guilty as any suicide bomber. What is sad is that after 50 years of fighting, Israel, which probably has a better and more able military then even the US, still can't stop the "terrorists".

What I see here is not an open discussion (sorry I'll remove debate) but Americans (who enjoy extraordinary amounts of freedoms) denying those rights to people under occupation. Americans who are willing to subsidize a military govt. to the tune of $11 million/day while turning their heads at the suffering by ALL peoples this extremist govt. has caused.

The fence stuns me - because what I see a religious nation such as Israel - who would deny these people the basic right to earn a living. To steal their land - isn't that against one's religious principles?

What would the justification be to seperate a farmer form his land?
3boys4us is offline  
#30 of 86 Old 09-05-2003, 12:03 AM
 
merpk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 14,887
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Now we're getting somewhere.




First, the "swaths" were not an issue of offering or not. Under Oslo, Israel pulled out of parts of the West Bank. Withdrawals is what I referred to.
And if you're offended by an offer at negotiation, then you make a counteroffer. You don't shoot the offerer.




And please, I never called Sharon "a man of peace." I said he practiced ... on occasion ... restraint. There would be attacks and no reprisals ... and there would be more attacks and still no reprisals... and then, whoa nelly, yo, you blow up a Passover seder, sorry, enough restraint already.

I'm not about to praise Ariel Sharon. Just to clarify that already.




Also, who said Israel is a religious nation? It is decidedly not, thank you. It is a Jewish nation, it is a nation where Jews are (in theory, anyway ) safe to live as Jews. It is quite far from a theocracy ... and quite secular, which is why many Jews don't support its existence as a state, but that's another discussion entirely.




I agree, BTW, separating a farmer from his land is horrendous. Horrible things happen during a war. And this is a war.





Oh, and since the B'Tselem link was provided, here's another page from that same link with regard to moral equivalency and I must also point out that you were very selective in your quoting statistics.

You only included a small segment of the reporting on Israeli casualties, and misrepresents/understates the numbers on the B'Tselem page. Why is that?




Those numbers aren't in any way (that I can see) refuting the ICT study. Pie-chart 'em, take a look. You'll see.





You didn't answer my comment about settlements. Whoever started them is not relevant to my point.

The settlements are always used as a reason for the violence against Jews, along with the occupation. My point was that the violence against Jews was already unbearable before the settlements ... before there was even an occupation. So what was the problem then?

And why wouldn't the violence stop then?

And why won't it stop now?

Please, answer that question.









Rotten fences can make rotten neighbors stay out of each other's hair.
merpk is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off