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#1 of 74 Old 09-04-2003, 01:27 PM - Thread Starter
 
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http://www.cnn.com/POLLSERVER/results/4942.html

just a little online poll, but i am angry that the yes's are ahead. Join me if you wish and vote no for love

Blessings, Sunny
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#2 of 74 Old 09-04-2003, 01:35 PM
 
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Can you post where we can vote. The above link just took me to the results

TIA,
Kay

 

 

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#3 of 74 Old 09-04-2003, 03:08 PM
 
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nak

Yes, please post the link or tell hoe to get to the actual voting spot.

I think it's great that the yeses are ahead. Marriage is a union of one man and one woman, nothing else.
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#4 of 74 Old 09-04-2003, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by gardenmommy

Marriage is a union of one man and one woman, nothing else.
Why is that?
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#5 of 74 Old 09-04-2003, 03:18 PM
 
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This is nice:
http://www.hrc.org/millionformarriag...inal/story.asp


I think the poll is dead. I have not been able to vote for a while. Here is the orig story with poll.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/...age/index.html


El
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#6 of 74 Old 09-04-2003, 05:05 PM
 
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I'll say no as well, since I'm a gay-loving sexual deviant.:
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#7 of 74 Old 09-04-2003, 05:21 PM
 
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I think it's funny that people think humans are only male or female.

Sexuality, including physical sexuality, is on a continuum.

There are lots of people who are not genetically male or female.
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#8 of 74 Old 09-04-2003, 05:36 PM
 
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Flame me if you will, but I believe it is because that is the way we have been created. I know that many here disagree with this point of view, however, I believe that God ordained marriage as a completion of men and women. Not men and men, or women and women.
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#9 of 74 Old 09-04-2003, 05:37 PM
 
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Edited for the mods
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#10 of 74 Old 09-04-2003, 05:59 PM
 
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On the contrary, Amazlilith, I am quite happy. And content, and very much at peace with my world. If you knew me, you would be able to see that.
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#11 of 74 Old 09-04-2003, 06:11 PM
 
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I can not fathom why anyone would deny another family the rights AND responsibilities that others take for granted. And don't use GOD as an excuse, because I don't agree. I am tired of people who are so self righteous that they can not see beyond their little world. I could care less if you agree with my life, but that doesn't give you or anyone else the right to consider my family less than ...
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#12 of 74 Old 09-04-2003, 06:20 PM
 
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In my opinion, civil marriage is a legal contract, and thus, how can you restrict what type of consenting adults can enter into a legal contract with one another?

Church marriages, on the other hand, can be anything they'd like, and churches should have the right to refuse a church wedding to anyone they don't want to marry.

It's not the government's place to legislate morality.
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#13 of 74 Old 09-04-2003, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by gardenmommy
Flame me if you will, but I believe it is because that is the way we have been created. I know that many here disagree with this point of view, however, I believe that God ordained marriage as a completion of men and women. Not men and men, or women and women.
Thanks for answering. Now, help me out: how is it "a completion" of men and women?
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#14 of 74 Old 09-04-2003, 07:32 PM - Thread Starter
 
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darn it the poll was working this morning, sorry everyone. Still a good debate topic.

gardenmommy, I have a question for you. Do you eat shell fish?
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#15 of 74 Old 09-04-2003, 07:45 PM
 
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Um, can we watch the tone of this thread?

I understand some of us are going to disagree about this issue but can we keep it to a peaceful discussion?

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#16 of 74 Old 09-04-2003, 08:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by abimommy
can we keep it to a peaceful discussion?
I don't think this topic will ever be discussed peaceefully and with respect.

Ever.

Because there are those that take the bible as fact and those of us that allow the people around them to think for themselves.

It's an angry topic.

Quote:
In my opinion, civil marriage is a legal contract, and thus, how can you restrict what type of consenting adults can enter into a legal contract with one another?

Church marriages, on the other hand, can be anything they'd like, and churches should have the right to refuse a church wedding to anyone they don't want to marry.
Yes.
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#17 of 74 Old 09-04-2003, 08:44 PM
 
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In case you are wondering what the deal with the "do you eat shell fish?" question was about... I am sure the poster was going to get to it, but just in case gardenmommy didn't feel inclined to answer... (forgive me Sunnydrop for being a spoiler...)

The scripture often pointed to by those who believe that homosexuality is a sin, which says "Thou shalt not lie with a man as thou would with a woman" is found in the middle of a list of all kinds of forbidden acts such as eating rare meat, pork and shellfish; wearing clothes of mixed fabric, the hybridization of cattle; planting seeds of two plants in the same field, not cutting the hair on the sides of your head, having sex while a woman is on her period, etc. (this is all in Leviticus 18-21, etc.) (many of these rules are followed by some fundamentalist jewish faiths, but generally not by christian religions). This section of the Bible also tells us to kill all divorced people who remarry; and to put to death all adulters; to banish all those who have sex while the woman in having menses....

I find it very hypocritical for christians to point to the bible selectively, to say "God says that to be gay is a sin", but not to recognize that, right there in the same scripture, it clearly states that your dinner at Red lobster is a rule laid down by god which you have broken...

I am completely "pro-gay" (if that's a word) just so my position is clear... (and I am not a "christian", though I am spiritual, if that matters to this discussion...)

I do not agree with people who base their life and decisions on the words of a book (the bible), but I respect their decision to do so if they choose. What I do not respect, however, is those who claim to live their lives based on the bible, who claim that the bible is the "word of god" and that everything in it is a total, unquestionable truth, who judge and condemn other people by pointing to passages, but who allow themselves selectively ignore sections of the bible that don't fit in with their beliefs.

I believe that Christians either need to say that the bible is a spiritual guide, that holds the stories and opinions of many people, and which can, if used correctly, be referred to for inspiration, just as can all other spiritual and philosphical works (like the Koran, Plato, Socrates, Bertrand Russell, the book of the dead, ... you get the idea), but that it is not the actual "Word of God" OR they need to say/believe that it is the "Word of God" and live according to the whole book, not just those selective passages that serve their purposes...

Anyway, my point is, that for those people who base their belief that homosexuality is a "sin" only on the bible, I think those beliefs should be examined more closely. For those who think homosexuality is just "gross" or something, well, there is little that can be said to that, other than just that 1) I disagree with you, 2) that you should open your minds, how is love between two consenting adults "gross", and 3) that unless what you think is "gross" is actually harmful and detrimental to other people (which being gay clearly is not), whether or not you personally think something is "gross" should have no impact or influence on the laws or equal treatment of people.

OK, that's all for now... sorry for the rant...I realize that the vast majority of the posts on this thread are pro-gay and pro-gay rights...


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#18 of 74 Old 09-04-2003, 09:00 PM - Thread Starter
 
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lol thanks for explain the whole shell fish comment. Saves me time typing. so I always ask people who use god as a reason that question.

Also, would like to point out God nor Jesus NEVER said one thing about being gay a sin. Not one thing about that in the bible quoted from Jesus.

would would Jesus do? Love Gays too

ohh and for the reocrd I am a recovering Catholic, but still very spirtual.

Hi abi i will be good I promise

Blessings, Sunny
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#19 of 74 Old 09-04-2003, 09:24 PM
 
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In my opinion, civil marriage is a legal contract, and thus, how can you restrict what type of consenting adults can enter into a legal contract with one another?
ITA!!!

I think there needs to be new termonology entered into this rhelm. There would be "marriage" which is a religious ceremony and individual religions/groups would decide who could enter into this (much like they do with baptism/holy orders/etc...). Meanwhile, there would be legal/civil definition of adult partnership (whatever) where people agree to be legally responsible for and to each other. This should not be based on the idea of sex or procreation, IMO.

Furthermore, even if I did believe homosexuality/trans-sexuality was wrong, I would not try to outlaw it. God gave humans FREE WILL/choice and it is not up to me to remove the choices that God has given. That is between God & that person, and if anothers choices do not effect me I should have nothing to say about them.

Kay

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#20 of 74 Old 09-04-2003, 11:34 PM
 
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No, I don't eat shellfish, for the record.

As far as allowing God to enter the discussion, why shouldn't He? This is a discussion in the spirituality forum, and I stated my beliefs. I find it interesting that it's ok for others to post beliefs that are offensive to me, but that I'm not allowed the same privilege without others taking umbrage at my postings.

I do believe the whole Bible is the inspired Word of God; do I follow it to the letter? Of course not, I am not perfect. I strive to live according to what I've read and understood. I am not trying to be self-righteous by stating that God created marriage between a man and a woman; I can see "beyond my little world" that not everyone agrees with me. My belief in God and His infallible Word are the basis for my beliefs, as offensive to some as that may be. I do not expect others to agree with me or to like my opinions. In fact, I completely expect to be very lonely in my positions here.

And, just because I hold this position does not mean that I hate all people who have another view, nor do I believe that God hates them. On the contrary, I believe that He loves them, maybe even more than He loves me!

By the way, the government legislates morality every day: it is against the law to murder, steal, defame another's name, to molest/abuse one's children or spouse, to own another person (slavery), and to commit perjury (lie). It is absurd to say that government cannot legislate morality; if it cannot, than it has no business making or enforcing laws against the aforementioned behaviors because they are inherently moral issues.

The government does prohibit certain civil contracts between consenting adults; contracts hiring a hit man, contracts for prostitution, contracts to defraud individuals or organizations, just to name a few.

I think the real issue at hand has nothing to do with the definition of marriage. I think it is something much greater, that of absolute truth. In other words, something that is true for all peoples, in all places, at all times. We live in a society that wants to do what feels right, not necessarily what IS right; so that what feels right to me may or may not feel right to you. If it feels right for you to "marry" another person of the same gender, then it must be right, because you LOVE each other. Regardless of whether or not it actually is right.

Again, flame me if you will. This is not an easy topic to discuss, no one likes to hear negative opinions concerning their behavior/thoughts/opinions. And this is just my own opinion.
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#21 of 74 Old 09-05-2003, 12:54 AM
 
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gardenmommy, I disagree with you so vehemently it's almost tangible.

HOWEVER. You have taken the best choice of phrasing and I hope that everyone else here sees it.

We most often have problems in the spirituality forum because of people making blanket statements that they are putting out there as fact. You are stating "I believe..." and not "This is the way it is."

I can appreciate that.

Even if I think you're wrong! Ha!


Quote:
Regardless of whether or not it actually is right.
Here's where I find the biggest fault. I don't believe that the government, in this instance, truly knows what's right and what's wrong.

Quote:
By the way, the government legislates morality every day: it is against the law to murder, steal, defame another's name, to molest/abuse one's children or spouse, to own another person (slavery), and to commit perjury (lie). It is absurd to say that government cannot legislate morality; if it cannot, than it has no business making or enforcing laws against the aforementioned behaviors because they are inherently moral issues.
All of the moral issue that you've stated are crimes in which there are victims, whether it's the state or a private citizen.

There is no crime commited when two people love each other and wish to have that love recognized by the state.

Just my opinion.
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#22 of 74 Old 09-05-2003, 01:23 AM
 
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Now, don't jump on me, ladies, but I don't see what love has to do with it at all.

Seems to me that the only purpose of civil marriage is for the good to society that comes from people living stable, settled-down lives. To promote this stability and settled-down-ness, the government has seen fit to make marriage a civil, or should I say legal, act; in other words, as opposed to a spiritual or religious act, with religious intent.

In other words, if you're following a Bible-based religion, it's hard to justify sanctifying a relationship which the Bible says is not sanctifiable.

But that's not what the issue is.

There's separation of church&state, right? So the government must not be attempting to legislate away church/religious marriages of gay people, but must be considering legislating away civil marriage. Which is a whole 'nother ball game.

So why is it only some people should be civilly settled-down in legal fashion, and not others? And why should only some people get whatever legal or tax benefits accrue (in theory, anyway) to those who live civilly settled-down?

What's religion got to do with it?
Or love?
We're talking legal rights here, and equality under the law. The civil law.

IMHO.









P.S. - I don't eat shellfish.
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#23 of 74 Old 09-05-2003, 01:49 AM
 
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You are right...you can have your beliefs and your opinions, BUT it is NOT right for them to infringe on my family and the protection of my family. Like I have once heard you state, "Please don't push YOUR agenda on me".
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#24 of 74 Old 09-05-2003, 02:16 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nursing Mother
This is marriage pure and simple the ways its been for thousands of years....man, woman produce children, makes family. I'm trying to look more at the biological POV and what makes sense in nature for the pro-creation of the species.
Then by your understanding, people who don't want children or can't have children shouldn't be married either.

What makes me sad it that you would approve more of a marriage between two people that married after knowing each other a minute, the a gay couple who have been in a committed relationship for 10, 20, or 30 years...
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#25 of 74 Old 09-05-2003, 02:27 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Nursing Mother~ Do you eat shell fish I don't always agree with you NM, but i have so much respect for you after all these years. no way would I flame you for your thoughts.
I just try and understand them kwim? I agree with you too, no one has the right to tell you you are wrong or force my opinion on you. I would never do that. Which is why it sucks that the goverment is forcing theirs on the Gay public. kwim? Why is it so bad to let everyone marry who they love?
the word believe is so strong, I read the bible I did not see Jesus say anything about gay people. I don't BELIEVE he did...

and garden, so are you saying you follow the bible word for word in your daily living? or simply dislike shell fish?

Blessings, Sunny
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#26 of 74 Old 09-05-2003, 02:58 AM
 
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As far as nature is concerned, it would be best for us all to become homosexuals until overpopulation was no longer an issue.
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#27 of 74 Old 09-05-2003, 03:10 AM
 
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I don't like shellfish. I think it is yuck. But not all of the Levitican laws are applicable to Christians, we were exempt from many of them in the New Testament.

I think homosexual marriages should be legal. I really feel that with all the problems this world has today people wishing to enter a commitment of love and fidelity should have encouragement and understanding. I am not trying to be PC or anything I just don't have a problem with it.

I would far rather get angry and tear my hair out about other issues than a loving relationship between two people. Not to mention that it will really hack off Fred Phelps, that alone makes me all for it.

Not all those who wander are lost 
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#28 of 74 Old 09-05-2003, 03:23 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by abimommy
Not to mention that it will really hack off Fred Phelps, that alone makes me all for it.
Best thing I've read today!!!!!!
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#29 of 74 Old 09-05-2003, 03:29 AM
 
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I just wanted to share what our gubernatorial candidate Arnold S. had to say on this subject during a recent radio interview: "I believe that gay marriage should be between a man and a woman."

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#30 of 74 Old 09-05-2003, 04:29 AM
 
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