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#1 of 36 Old 09-08-2003, 01:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Anyone see it? What did you think? I think Michael Moore asks lots of questions but does not get much in the way of conclusive answers. He's funny and disturbing but I am left with a sense of weird futilty about our culture and it's attitudes. Are we a culture of fear and paranoia? Many countries have guns available to the average citizen. Many countries have violent video games and mivies. Only the US has the number of deaths related to guns. The sheer scale is baffling when compared to these other countries.

America remains a mystery to me and I live here.

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#2 of 36 Old 09-08-2003, 03:46 PM
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for a fake it was ok. I do not like lyes so when he lied about getting a gun at the bank like that instead of telling the teuth I didn't want to give the mjovie any good things.

Just my two cents as everyone says!!!
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#3 of 36 Old 09-08-2003, 04:39 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Hey. I tend to avoid lye too

Can you be specific as to where you think the film lied? I'm curious.

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#4 of 36 Old 09-08-2003, 05:06 PM
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I said at the bank when he got the gun he did not really get the gun that day it was after a week of backgrund checks so he lied.
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#5 of 36 Old 09-08-2003, 05:11 PM
 
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I thought it was an amazing film, very powerful. It really inspired me, and rather than making me feel futile, it made me feel as if *I* could ake a difference. Lok at Michael Moore- he is just one person, yet he has really opened up a lot of minds to to the issues of violence in our society. A small group of people got K-Mart to stop selling bullets. That really spoke to me about what is possible.
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#6 of 36 Old 09-08-2003, 05:41 PM
 
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I saw it back when it was @ the movies & have it on my netflix list so I can refresh myself. I found it thought provoking & think he was deliberatley ambigiuos about his "message" no big inspirational "here's what we need to now" thing. I can't wait to see it again so I can discuss better.

There was also a thread in media about it that I'm surprised didn't get moved over here, frankly. There were a number of critical posts ("he lied") over there, too by people who didn't see it~ DH2Carmen, did you see it yourself or are you relying on someone else's interpretation of it? & how do you know *they* aren't lying to further their own agenda?

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#7 of 36 Old 09-08-2003, 05:54 PM
 
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I finally rented this movie this weekend. I recommend it. In fact, I rented "Roger and Me" and started that one too..."Columbine" plays off it at points, almost distrubingly like a sequel.

What I found most disturbing were the points in the little cartoon about the founding of the NRA and the connection one might make with the KKK...well, most disturbing, perhaps not. The whole darn thing was disturbing. The footage of people being killed by guns was sickening. But I understand that's the point.

And for the record, I distinctly remember the woman at the bank saying, very clearly, "After the background checks," as she explained to Mr. Moore that the bank is licensed to deal guns. This was when he was in her office filling out the background check paperwork. And he did make the point several times that he is an NRA member, grew up shooting guns. His point was that the bank was using guns as a premium for selling another, totally unrelated, product. And that the bank actually became a licensed dealer in order to offer this promotion. He asked whether it seemed odd to be handing out guns at a bank.

I think we are fed a steady diet of fear and sex, because that seems to be what we want--just like fast food. Somewhere inside, we know it's bad for us, both individually and as a society, but we keep asking for more--by not turning it off, boycotting sponsors, writing/calling to let networks know we deserve better. I think after Pres. Bush's last speech, it's clear that fearmongering is the best way to keep America from asking too many questions.

I felt so terrible for the father of one of the boys who comitted the shooting, when they played his 9-1-1 call over the video of the cafeteria in the school...imagining what truly awful things he had to have been considering, imagining having to make such a call, and face people whose kids my son was in the process of killing. :shudder.
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#8 of 36 Old 09-08-2003, 06:40 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I think the numbers used to illustrate the number of deaths by country via firearm were definitely disturbing. Then again. I realize that the populations of the countries involved would not allow for a neat comparison between say, Germany and the US. I would like to find numbers for the entire EU compared to the USA for death by firearm. The two populations would then be more alike.

My conclusions about this film are that it's good and told in a very entertaining and ironic manner but that it's agenda shifts wildly. Is it anti-gun or anti-gun-culture or just anti-our-culture.

Honestly I think the film makes me perceive American culture as a highly stressful and over-adrenalized. People snap here. It's the richest country in the world and people here get least amount of time off. Stress in the schools and the workplaces here is insane and people are reacting to it lethally. The guns themselves are to me just tools being put to the wrong purpose. We live in a land where overusing them makes sense for some reason. We have to look more at why this is so. This film helped me to understand that.

Maybe we do have more guns than we need but even so, the whys of Columbine point more toward how we allow children to alienate each other at school. This film helped me see how dehumanizing this society has become and I do not think it's the video games or the movies that are making it happen.

See it and then decide for yourself if it's all lies.

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#9 of 36 Old 09-08-2003, 08:20 PM
 
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I actually use lye all the time for soapmaking.

There was some false info in the movie but I am pretty certain it was just that one thing. It has been all in the media that his information presented in the film about background checks was false.

I really feel he dropped the ball on that one. If you are going to make a film attacking the NRA you *have* to have *all* of your ducks in line as they'll attack anything in the film they can.

A licensed dealer must do background checks. If you are a regular person and you sell someone one of your weapons it does **not** require a background check (though Colorado passed a law after Columbine requiring checks for all gun sales) This **can** include people selling guns at gunshows. Not everyone who sells a gun at a gunshow is a licensed dealer.

I am not certain how much Moore went into all of that in the movie as I have not seen it.

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#10 of 36 Old 09-09-2003, 12:10 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I think gun shows are a huge part of the problem. That's just my opinion. FWIW.

I am not entirely anti-gun. I found the movie to be really interesting as an approach to docu-film-making. I think wherever you sit on the gun issue, this movie will make you think. It's not as virulently anti-gun as the gun lobby would make it out to be so I think even if you happen to be pro-gun, you should check it out. Some of the footage is disturbing though. Not for the faint of heart.

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#11 of 36 Old 09-09-2003, 12:23 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by dentente
docu-film-making


Well said! I think Moore is a little too loose with chronology and context to really be considered a documentarian. But he certainly knows how to make a strong statement.
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#12 of 36 Old 09-09-2003, 01:14 AM
 
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The movie was....eh.

I would never rely on Michael Moore for gospel truth presented in film, but I don't think he necessarily lies any more than any other commentator. I believe, though, that the 'cartoon history' was meant to be tongue in cheek, especially about the NRA-KKK connection. Moore seems to be kind of a tongue-in-cheek sort of man anyway, I doubt he's thinking that his movies should be held to (or taken) the same standards as...oh, say Ken Burns.

I didn't feel the movie was all that revolutionary or controversial, or even shocking. But my political leanings are towards gun control anyway, and I've seen a few people get shot as well as the (usually fatal) aftermath of People Being Idiots With Guns. Also, would this movie change anyone's mind? If I were a militia person, or was anti-gun-control, the tone would have been a turn off.

I enjoyed the extras on the flip side of the DVD more than the film. I've never liked Michael Moore before, but I kind of like him the person now after seeing some of his interviews. I understand why people are drawn to him, he does project a kind of charisma that I don't feel in his films, but comes readily across in his interviews.

But...that's just my take on it. It's a good thing to watch when you are feeling snarky and cornered what with all the Bush nonsense going on, because then you get to laugh at the dumb people who don't share your views.

I have to ask though...why would anyone who already feels strongly about being pro-gun-control be disturbed by this film? Did you not already know the statistics or have seen what happens when people get shot? Was it a great surprise to you that the media is geared up to instill fear in us over really really really STUPID crap? Was it comforting to buy into the stereotype of gun-toting American as hick or misfit? I think Moore is kind of like a leftist version of Rush Limbaugh. They're both pretty smart guys, passionate about their causes, and are eager to prove them with a bit of wit (on occasion) but mostly just making fun of those they don't agree with. (Though I have to admit I find Moore FAR more witty than Mr. Limbaugh). It is entertainment with a point. But not necessarily what you could call a balanced report.
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#13 of 36 Old 09-09-2003, 06:53 AM
 
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I got the sense that he started the film with one hypothosis "access to guns cause deaths" or something along that line, and ended up disproving his hypothosis, and instead, raised even more complicated questions. It has brought a lot of discussion between my dh and I and our friends. Literally, very thought provoking.

My favorite part of the dvd was also the flip side. I loved the south park style cartoon and found it hilarious in it's implications. (of course, I have a weird sense of humor). I thought it was very intellegently done.

I think the most moving part of the film was the speech he gave to the college crowd. There was a section in there about how no one was "allowed" into the school and how the people, many of whose children were possible victims, stood dutifully behind the flimsy yellow police tape. How we are so conditioned, as a society, to obey our leadership without question that parents ignored their most primal need (to protect your children) and succumb to authority. Also, how the denver swat wanted to get in there and take care of business, the local police (in charge) wouldn't let them because "they might get shot". It was a full three hours from the end of the shootings until swat was allowed into the building. Who knows how many people bled to death in the wait. Really powerful and amazing speech.

I am going to go rent the other movies by him now. I remember seeing them, but I remember them being "really boring". I think I was maybe not in a place in my life I could appreciate them and want to see them again.

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#14 of 36 Old 09-09-2003, 10:04 AM
 
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By comparison, "Roger and Me" IS really boring--hours of Moore and crew trying to get in to see Roger, and a lot of really surreal reaction to economic failure in between.

I mean, if someone today pulled some of the CRAP on a town where a huge number of people lost jobs, like the crap they "tried" in Flint...well, I don't know. They probably still do. But there is--again--some of that odd humor. The idea of turning Flint into a tourist attraction...or that Amway could be the solution to the job losses...

But I don't know if I'd call it tongue-in-cheek. More like, let's have a laugh at how ridiculous it all is, because the other option is to go insane.
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#15 of 36 Old 09-09-2003, 02:33 PM
 
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One example of a lie that I remember in the film is that he changed (added) information to one of the Bush (sr) election commercials, specifically the one dubbed "Revolving Doors." He adds in the text at the bottom of the screen "Willie Horton Released. Then Kills Again." This statement first off is not true (he raped someone), and second off Willie Horton was not even mentioned in the real ad. In the DVD version, he "corrects" it to say the real crime he committed, but it still isn't accurate because it was not even in the real ad. However, this "lie" is necessary because it ties the add to racism, and Willie Horton is the only POC "mentioned" in the ad.

Another lie is when he "quotes" the Air Force Academy plaque by the B-52 bomber celebrating the massacre of civilians on Christmas Eve. Dh is a NA grad who spent a year there on exchange and was required to know what the plaque says-- it actually just commemorates the brave men who flew the plane over a span of several years, and makes no mention of *anything* Moore says it does.

There are several places online to get info about the "truths" in Bowling for Colombine, but I'm not silly enough to think that anyone here would care, as they're all conservative.

A decent example is : http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel040403.asp

edited because I misnamed the airplane
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#16 of 36 Old 09-09-2003, 03:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wendydagny



There are several places online to get info about the "truths" in Bowling for Colombine, but I'm not silly enough to think that anyone here would care, as they're all conservative.

A decent example is : http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel040403.asp
Well, you know what happens when one assumes : . I absolutely want to know. Thanks for the link. Any more you can provide are very welcome.

Denny
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#17 of 36 Old 09-09-2003, 05:51 PM
 
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Ah that's what happens when I type fast. Didn't mean "care" exactly....just meant that they'd probably be torn to shreds by several people because of the source.

Here's another that talks about the DVD release:

http://www.spinsanity.org/post.html?...24779059990811

Some more:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles...le.asp?ID=6841
http://www.opinionjournal.com/forms/...l?id=110003233
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#18 of 36 Old 09-11-2003, 07:53 PM
 
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i personally really enjoyed the movie. i think most anything that can get people debating issues is a good thing. i also agree with his "fear & guns" connection. there's an actually an interesting article on how bush uses this type of talk in the nation at

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i...0&c=2&s=brooks

it makes for interesting reading.

mona
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#19 of 36 Old 09-15-2003, 02:12 AM
 
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My DH is a deer hunter and he actually really enjoyed this movie. Our history as a nation is all true.... the NRA part.... there's no possibilty of lying there. All I know is there was a bank and it had GUNS!!!!!! I don't understand how any of you could disagree with the point of this movie..... The guy in the Littleton bomb making plant having no clue with the obviouse connection there. It's been a while since I saw the movie.... but I suggest Abimama watches the movie. It is a remarkable piece of journalism...so in depth and it ties a lot of issues together.... WHAT IS IT THEN?????? Why does the United States have sooooooooooooooooo many gun related deaths?????? I know you bring in the population and the math and the ladeedadee, but it is an alarmingly higher number.
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#20 of 36 Old 09-15-2003, 02:58 PM
 
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Hi,

Just a comment from a foreigner.
I liked the movie, and this was a film that made a lot of noice here in Buenos Aires (Argentina, South America). However, the interesting thing is that the most common negative comment against the movie was that since it got an Oscar (Best documentary fim) folks here say that giving an Oscar to Columbine is the way America has to eat it, KWIM? Like, OK, America makes a movie about how Americans kill themselves and about racism and a whole sense of self blaming for the War and other not-so-nice things. However, on the other hand, the same people the movie points at (the American system) gives the movie an award. And voila! we are all friends.

Anyway, that's not a position I entirely share. I found, as the OP said, the movie poses a lot of questions without getting solid conclussions. Anyway, making questions is just great, isn't it all about that?

Ivanhoe
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#21 of 36 Old 09-16-2003, 01:43 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by dentente
I would like to find numbers for the entire EU compared to the USA for death by firearm. The two populations would then be more alike.
there are tons of stats available on the net. here's an interesting comparison of homicide rates between the laidback capital of America and a European hotspot of seemingly never-ending violence.

murders per 100k people

San Diego : 8
Belfast (yes, that Belfast) : 4
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#22 of 36 Old 09-16-2003, 10:57 AM
 
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Just gotta chime in here:

see my reply (near the bottom of the page) on this thread: http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...threadid=83846

I recommended watching this movie AND I am a hunter (as I have mentioned several times on this board in various contexts).

The scene in the bank is good and there were no lies, as far as I remember. The bank officer DID say "After the background checks". They DID offer guns as a premium. I think it IS wierd to do that. (Of course, I think any account-opening gifts ARE wierd, I'd rather they just paid decent interest.: But, guns are waaaay wierder than toasters.) And, as an acquaintence of mine who has a gun shop in Duluth could tell you, background checks don't tell you what the person is thinking right now. Long story behind that one.

And I lived in Europe. In Spain, the gun laws, in practice, are very similar to a lot of places here. You apply for a permit, you get a background check, get a permit and you can buy a gun. Know what? Hardly anyone does. Why? I'm not sure, but I think it has something to do with not being afraid of the world and everyone around them. And this is in a country with an active home-grown, terrorist organization and four police forces with the right to just pick you up and hold you in jail without a warrant. Somehow, they are less afraid than we are.

In Britain, the gun laws are very strict. And, in my experience, that's a good thing. The quantity of violence I encountered there was surprising. It is usually in specific places/times (like Rangers/Celtics matches), so it is avoidable, but it was there like clockwork. (I was there in the early '80s)

And, in Switzerland, it seemed like nearly every house had a gun. Of course, every adult male was in or had been in the army and was still on a sort of "ready reserve" status.

Perhaps someone else here could come up with the actual stats.

Anyhow, I think this movie is worthwhile. And, you can't say anything concrete about any movie/book/piece of art/etc. unless you've seen/read it. The most one can say is "From what I heard, I didn't want to spend my money/time on it."
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#23 of 36 Old 09-16-2003, 11:44 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer Z
I think the most moving part of the film was the speech he gave to the college crowd.
Was this on the 2nd DVD??? Because I didn't see that. I'll have to rent it again. I really enjoyed it. (DH felt he was full of it. I found myself agreeing with most of what he was saying.)

I started sobbing (unexpectedly) when I saw the planes flying into the WTC. The South Park bit was brilliant. I also loved the interview with the South Park artist and what he had to say about the Columbine shooters.

The part that got me angry was about the welfare mother who had to drive so far and be away from her 6 yr old for so many hours. I just learned that the Senate (?) passed a measure where they would increase the back-to-work hours from 30 to 36.

If Americans were really connected to each other, and really cared about each other (instead of their own nuclear families) then Dick Clark would have cared enough to listen to what RM had to say. Then he would have done something positive about it. He's rich enough... he can afford it.

Maybe that's just really it... we are not the "UNITED" States of America. We are pretty divided and keep it that way. I love Oprah (many people can't stand her) and one of the things she loves to do is highlight her "Angel Network" where ordinary people around the country start doing good deeds to help others. That's what we need more of... more people need to step up to the plate.... because we are all the part of the same tapestry.

I do think we are a culture of fear and paranoia (vaccines being one example) and I loved his interview with Marilyn Manson.

and my favorite part was when Kmart came out the 2nd day to announce they would no longer sell bullets. I was sooo sad for the kids who were shot. I was about to sit down and write them a letter that I would never shop there again.

T THE FOLLOWING PARAGRAPH IS A DESCRIPTION OF A VIOLENT SHOOTING. IF YOU DON'T WANT TO READ IT, SKIP IT.
Sadly, the same week I saw it (about 2 weeks ago) a father in San Diego (I read this in the LA Times, I don't watch local news) waited in a parked car on a street for his 14-year-old son to come jogging by with his track team. He got out (son smiles and says "Hi Dad!") and when his back is turned, dad shoots him in the back and drives away. The parents were never married. The boy complained in therapy that he was afraid his father was going to harm him and dad was just served with some papers by the sheriffs department to stay away from his son. They were going to have a hearing about whether or not he should turn in his fire arms. The father went home and made a few calls telling people what he did "I just killed ----" and shot himself. I guess he felt that he had no access to his son, the boy was better off dead.

What the hell?

See... I'm not opposed to hunting, etc.... but there are one too many insane Americans (and you won't know until they snap) or slimey Americans (like the kids in the Columbine movie - who went into poor, black neighborhoods to sell guns ).

I think there needs to be * some * limits on gun ownership - for everyone's safety. But the NRA won't hear of it.

The Canadian house-tour was enlightening... what the hell is wrong with Americans? Why are we so destructive?

Quote:
Originally posted by dentente
This film helped me see how dehumanizing this society has become and I do not think it's the video games or the movies that are making it happen.
Is it our babyhood? Our upbringing? The fact that many of us were FF and left in playpens for many hours alone? Left alone to CIO? Does this set us up for rage? Stress-prone? Jumpy? Paranoid? Fearful?

Edited to add: I believe we start out being alienated by our parents... and that alienation (from self and others) continues through young adulthood. Some people snap (Columbine shooters) many more don't.

THEN we are pumped by TV, society, and now government which doesn't help matters. Public education (we are all taught at an early age to sit still and follow orders and not question) does not help.

Is the "nuclear family" part of the problem.... all of us are so isolated from each other... maybe humans really need tribes ??? And when it is not present in the formative years in healthy ways... normal, good people find their own tribes (MDC, PTA, LLL, NRA...) and other people just go more inward and snap (the unabomber...).

Just my rambling off the top of my head...

Quote:
Originally posted by dentente
America remains a mystery to me and I live here.
Me too.

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5.5 - girl
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#24 of 36 Old 09-16-2003, 12:38 PM - Thread Starter
 
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See. The more I turn over this conundrum in mind, the more I am convinced that watching the news is actually harmful to your mental health. That is not to say all tv is harmful. I just think the major new networks play to our worst fears, amplifying and refining them. My neighbor bought her guns after watching the L.A. riots on tv. She was certain a horde of angry minorities would come maruading into her suburban shangrilah and she would be prepared. She was and still is afraid minorities. She is civil to them in public but I would characterize her as fearful in general.

She seems typical to me. And it' so sad to live your life fearing your neighbors. This is the america that Moore is talking about. A Nation of Gun Nuts or Just Plain Nuts?

Just plain nuts if you ask me.

Turn off Faux. Turn off CNN. Turn off MSNBC.
Turn it all off and live one day at a time. Try to be kind to your neighbors and get to know them. Try not to let the media force you to live in a culture of fear.

Denny
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#25 of 36 Old 09-16-2003, 01:18 PM
 
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Bingo.

This country has ended up being "divided and conquered" with all our drive for "independence". We have taken the idea of political independence and self-determination and used it at every level, to the point of insanity.

We are told to exhibit "family values" but our economy drives them apart. (ie: a kid gets out of college and frequently has to travel across the country to the latest job hotspot to work)

And then, family values are supposed to be "nuclear family". NOT a healthy or normal ideal. Didn't even exist until after WWII. My father was raised by an extended family. And they all lived in the same neighborhood.

Less isolation in the "old" days. Less getting your picture of the world from a box that is manipulated by people who want you to stay quiet. Bread and Circuses. And they want you to stay afraid. So they can steal more of your soul from you.

I feel a soapbox moment coming here. Gotta quit. You all already said it.

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#26 of 36 Old 09-16-2003, 01:44 PM
 
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Originally posted by dentente
See. The more I turn over this conundrum in mind, the more I am convinced that watching the news is actually harmful to your mental health.
This reminds me... I was in Barnes & Noble the other day and saw a cool book, wrote down the title, now I can't find the slip of paper.

Shock ? something

written by a woman, the premise of the book was that the TV news or watching acts of violence in the media really DOES hurt our psyches. I want to read it.

10 - boy
5.5 - girl
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#27 of 36 Old 09-16-2003, 01:52 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Common Shock: Witnessing Violence Every Day--How We Are Harmed, How We Can Heal

Kaethe Weingarten


From Publishers Weekly
Weingarten defines "common shock" as the biological and physiological feeling that "is triggered by our being witness to an event or an interaction that we appraise as disturbing," which can range from watching a parent hit a child to watching a television news report about a terrorist bombing. She argues that this kind of common shock is an experience that can have "chronic debilitating effects," but that "few people know how to deal with it themselves or, crucially, help children do so." Drawing upon recent research as well as her work as part of the Witnessing Project (which helps individuals, families and communities deal with violence), Weingarten details typical interpersonal consequences of common shock, such as being driven into silence and losing trust in people. Her primary solution to common shock is encouraging people to act "as compassionate witnesses to others," as a way of helping others regain a "sense of safety" and community, and she states that research suggests that "small compassionate actions performed routinely could have a major impact." Weingarten may overexplain what seems to be a fairly straightforward idea, but she provides a beneficial service by responding to what is clearly a current social problem; the two appendices provide direct and useful recommendations for how to help others deal with the shock triggered by disturbing everyday events.
Copyright 2003 Reed Business Information, Inc.


I'm ordering it. Thanks.

Denny
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#28 of 36 Old 09-16-2003, 07:00 PM
 
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I watched this movie last week. I loved it. As art alone, it was a delight and to be honored.

I also agree, his seemingly final conclusion, now that I mulled it over, seems to be we kill because we fear. And we fear needlessly.

Another idea was our social support system sucks, and the poor fall through the cracks, without hope, without love, with no "leisure" to care for their children.

I think he was a remarkable interviewer and got all kinds of different people to open up and say surprising things.

MM, I to you.
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#29 of 36 Old 09-22-2003, 01:21 AM
 
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A lot or shall I say, the majority of the people in America do not agree with the stuff our government does. OUr current president didn't even win the election.
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#30 of 36 Old 09-22-2003, 12:33 PM
 
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WHAT IS IT THEN?????? Why does the United States have sooooooooooooooooo many gun related deaths??????


FEAR



watching biased news that is all killing, raping......... How else are we suppose to feel after that?
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