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Old 04-20-2010, 03:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I met a guy who is muslim and although it is way way way in the future, if things ever did work out between us, and we married/had a child, Im wondering if he would want to circumcise his son? Would he want to do it/not want to do, it for religious reasons?

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Old 04-21-2010, 02:08 AM
 
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Most Muslims regaurd circumcision as something very highly recommended to do, close to required to do, but not quite required to do. So most likely he would like to follow this tradition of circumcision.
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Old 04-21-2010, 10:03 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Most Muslims regaurd circumcision as something very highly recommended to do, close to required to do, but not quite required to do. So most likely he would like to follow this tradition of circumcision.
Oh ok. Thanks...I was afraid of that.

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Old 04-21-2010, 11:14 PM
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It is more for adults than children because it is a test or sacrifice that a child cannot understand.



http://www.historyofcircumcision.net...id=27&Itemid=0


Circumcision is a sunnah for the men and a makrumah for the women". (Note the reference to men and women: nothing about boys and girls.) The term sunnah means customary or traditional; the term makrumah means meritorious. The most you could conclude is that circumcision was customary for men and meritorious for women, and thus desirable for both but obligatory for neither.
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Old 04-22-2010, 12:15 AM
 
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It is more for adults than children because it is a test or sacrifice that a child cannot understand.



http://www.historyofcircumcision.net...id=27&Itemid=0


Circumcision is a sunnah for the men and a makrumah for the women". (Note the reference to men and women: nothing about boys and girls.) The term sunnah means customary or traditional; the term makrumah means meritorious. The most you could conclude is that circumcision was customary for men and meritorious for women, and thus desirable for both but obligatory for neither.
No offense to you, but that is not a very accurate source of Islamic information. Circumcision is not normally thought of as a test and sacrifice in Islam. It is generally thought of more as part of what we do to maintain the body. It is also a tradtion from the Prophet to circumcise on the 7th day after birth. So it is normally done to a baby and many men who convert to Islam that are not circumcised choose not to have it done because this would cause difficulty and hardship. So it is mostly something done to a baby, but could also be done to a man. We don't make Islamic rulings based on English translations because it is hard to know which word was used in the origonal Arabic. It could have been indicating "male" not "man." Just wanted to clear up the beliefs so things are presented accuratly from an Islamic perspective.
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Old 04-22-2010, 05:35 PM
 
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Have you asked him? Does he follow closely to the faith?

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Old 04-23-2010, 04:30 AM
 
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Just a to chimomma. Really, googling circumcision and Islam leads to a lot of things that have very little to do with Islamic traditions or Muslim practices. It can be hard to sift though if one is not already familiar with the subject.
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Old 04-23-2010, 05:08 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Have you asked him? Does he follow closely to the faith?
No I haven't asked him about it yet as Im not sure how to respond if he says he has to do it for religious reasons.

I'm not sure how strongly he follows Islam, im confused on this. He doesn't go to the Mosque at all and He's fine about having sex before marriage. Yet He prays sometimes and doesn't eat pork at all. I have asked him about if he had a child with someone who wasn't muslim, how he would want to raise that child and he said he would be fine if the mother wanted to raise the child as Christian, he even said he might try going to a church if his wife did.

His family are strict Muslims but they are not living here. How do I know how serious he is about his faith? Or if it's more of a family pressure type of thing?

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Old 04-23-2010, 08:31 AM
 
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I have asked him about if he had a child with someone who wasn't muslim, how he would want to raise that child and he said he would be fine if the mother wanted to raise the child as Christian, he even said he might try going to a church if his wife did.
Well that's a good sign! IMO, there is a leap between "raising christian" and not circing. KWIM? If he is willing to 'allow' his child to be raised in another religion, I am sure he would be willing to hear your argument against ONE cosmetic procedure.

Good luck to you! If you feel really strongly about this, I would let it be known. You don't have to pin him down and yell, but maybe mention it. Like next time you read an article about circ mention how you "don't think you want to do that to a baby" Something small to plant the seed!

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Old 04-23-2010, 02:10 PM
 
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In my experience, even among non-practicing Muslims, there are a few things they almost always do:

1) Not eat pork
2) Usually not drink alcohol...although this does vary
3) Fast during Ramadan (it's weird... but I know people who never pray, don't go to the mosque, drink... yet when Ramadan comes around, they fast)
4) Circumcize their male kids

What varies in Muslim cultures is when it is done. The Turks tend to do it when a child is older... I want to say 5-7. Most Muslims do it at birth, or soon after... usually in the hospital.

Even if he only sometimes pray, not circumcizing is a really big deal in Islam. There are some school of thought that say that the prayers of one who is not circumcized are not accepted. He may not lead prayers. A lot of scholars do not consider it fard (obligatory), but there is such cultural pressure that you almost never hear of a Muslim family not circumcizing. It's a really big deal not to circumcize.

I want to say this gently, but I'm not sure how to put it, that if you guys are sleeping together, then he probably doesn't see you as marriage material. A lot of it would have to do with family pressures--especially if his family does practice. Muslim men can marry Christian and Jewish women--but they need to be chaste. Also, I would expect that there would be strong family pressure to raise the child as Muslim. You guys could raise the child as Christian, but you'd also be expected to teach him/her about Islam. Otherwise, things could get really bad with him and his family.

Do not underestimate the amount of pressure many Muslim families can put on their kids regarding marriage partners. It seems to be viewed as a family decision, more of the decision of the child in my experience. I've seen people who marry other Muslims who are still basically disowned because their family did not approve of their choice. It can get really really nasty. I hope his family is not like that, but I did want to warn you that at least as far as I know (especially if his family is in a Muslim country), pressure is the norm to marry somebody whom the family approves of.

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Old 04-23-2010, 02:35 PM
 
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Oh wait ... is this the Afghani guy again?
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Old 04-23-2010, 06:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by umsami View Post
In my experience, even among non-practicing Muslims, there are a few things they almost always do:

1) Not eat pork
2) Usually not drink alcohol...although this does vary
3) Fast during Ramadan (it's weird... but I know people who never pray, don't go to the mosque, drink... yet when Ramadan comes around, they fast)
4) Circumcize their male kids

What varies in Muslim cultures is when it is done. The Turks tend to do it when a child is older... I want to say 5-7. Most Muslims do it at birth, or soon after... usually in the hospital.

Even if he only sometimes pray, not circumcizing is a really big deal in Islam. There are some school of thought that say that the prayers of one who is not circumcized are not accepted. He may not lead prayers. A lot of scholars do not consider it fard (obligatory), but there is such cultural pressure that you almost never hear of a Muslim family not circumcizing. It's a really big deal not to circumcize.

I want to say this gently, but I'm not sure how to put it, that if you guys are sleeping together, then he probably doesn't see you as marriage material. A lot of it would have to do with family pressures--especially if his family does practice. Muslim men can marry Christian and Jewish women--but they need to be chaste. Also, I would expect that there would be strong family pressure to raise the child as Muslim. You guys could raise the child as Christian, but you'd also be expected to teach him/her about Islam. Otherwise, things could get really bad with him and his family.

Do not underestimate the amount of pressure many Muslim families can put on their kids regarding marriage partners. It seems to be viewed as a family decision, more of the decision of the child in my experience. I've seen people who marry other Muslims who are still basically disowned because their family did not approve of their choice. It can get really really nasty. I hope his family is not like that, but I did want to warn you that at least as far as I know (especially if his family is in a Muslim country), pressure is the norm to marry somebody whom the family approves of.

Goodness yes. I was born/raised Muslim, as was DH. And we still had a rough time with his family. He wasn't disowned, but it did get nasty. 6 years later and it's hard for me to get over it sometimes.

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Old 04-24-2010, 08:50 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Oh wait ... is this the Afghani guy again?
No it's a new guy, I must have a thing for foreign men! lol

umsami you made some good points, thanks for letting me know those things. I think I need to talk to him about it further. From what I have heard already, he doesn't have much contact with his family because they aren't living here. I did bring up the point about whether they would be okay with him seeing me as Im not Muslim and he basically said they don't care because they understand his life is here now and it's upto him. So im guessing they would probably prefer he find a Muslim woman, but they aren't putting much pressure on him to do so, they are leaving it upto him....which is good.

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Old 04-24-2010, 11:06 AM
 
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Samy23... I will tell you that I have a friend who felt the same way about circ as you did. She fell in love with a Muslim guy (Algerian)... and she made him at least promise to consider her point of view. He, in turn, made her promise to look at his side... and they also went to the effort of speaking with a pediatric urologist about what the procedure might be like if their son waited until he was older. As far as I know, they did not tell his family--and they were basically relying on the strong concept of modesty in Islam (there's not even urinals in Muslim countries in men's bathrooms because of modesty) to keep anybody from knowing that their son was not circ'd.

After all that, God blessed them with three girls... so the whole circumcision thing never came up in real life.

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Old 04-24-2010, 07:59 PM
 
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No it's a new guy, I must have a thing for foreign men! lol

umsami you made some good points, thanks for letting me know those things. I think I need to talk to him about it further. From what I have heard already, he doesn't have much contact with his family because they aren't living here. I did bring up the point about whether they would be okay with him seeing me as Im not Muslim and he basically said they don't care because they understand his life is here now and it's upto him. So im guessing they would probably prefer he find a Muslim woman, but they aren't putting much pressure on him to do so, they are leaving it upto him....which is good.
At this rate you're going to need a comparative religions class as a pre-requisite for dating.

The thing with circ in Islam is that the actual doctrine doesn't give a lot of reasons for the practice ... it's just a sort of vague bodily maintenance thing, coupled with things like trimming the fingernails and leaving the beard to grow. But people like having concrete reasons. In practice what that means is that over the years Muslim cultures and sources have pretty heavily attached reasons that read like a script from the American history of circ: hygiene! Anti-cancer! Curbs masturbation! Yada yada yada.

A lot of people coming out of Muslim communities get exactly as attached to those sorts of reasons as many non-Muslim Americans do. Even without a lot of religious devotion that sense of why it's done can be hard to overcome. So really it may just depend more on his culture and his attachment to his culture than his religion, or lack thereof, at all.

...

Although ... I know I was one of the people going all "red flag, red flag!" all over your Afghani man thread, and I kind of don't want to do that again, but this part?

Quote:
he doesn't have much contact with his family because they aren't living here. I did bring up the point about whether they would be okay with him seeing me as Im not Muslim and he basically said they don't care because they understand his life is here now and it's upto him.
It is extremely rare for a Muslim man to immigrate and not have a lot of family contact simply due to distance. The relationship to one's parents is huge. Likewise, it is extremely rare for a devout Muslim family to tell their son "your life, your business" about marriage.

Just, you know, every family is different, I get that, but please just be aware that in the broader Muslim community these would be things that would take some serious explanation to not be cause for his character to be considered suspect.
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Old 04-24-2010, 08:56 PM
 
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I concur with umsami and Liquesce.
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Old 04-24-2010, 09:46 PM
 
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Oh wait ... is this the Afghani guy again?
No disrespect intended to the OP but I was thinking the SAME THING. And as Liquesce said, yeah, looks like all the same issues all over again.

May I also gently suggest counseling to determine why you keep seeking out guys from Muslim backgrounds who have big question marks about their backgrounds?
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Old 04-25-2010, 12:30 AM
 
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I don't have any insight on the circ question, but I just want to say that inter-cultural, inter-faith relationships are very difficult. Not to say that they *can't* happen, but that it is a life of surprises and many unconditional acceptances because explaining the strong ties to some aspects of culture and religion (and not others) is not always easy (or sometimes even possible) to explain. What to our "cultural ear" might sound like one thing is really not what the intention or meaning is at all. We might miss important signals all together because they are not what we know. There might be expectations that we have no idea even exist. And having children really brings up things that people may be unprepared for, as we go to our own experiences and values to parent. So things seem to "come out of left field" as people have children and come to feel strong desires to connect to their own childhoods and cultural points of reference, security and happiness.

Honestly, I would spend some time doing some serious soul searching and discover your own "deal breakers" and areas you feel you would truly not budge in terms of acts, relationship expectations, locations, etc. and discuss them if you see a future with this man. Is circ one of them? Also, I would carefully consider the words of the wise Muslim women here. Of course, there might be situations or "cultural pockets" that make what they say not applicable, but they are giving you important pieces of information that you need to evaluate regarding the cultural and religious norms he is connected with (and how you might fit in with them), and if he has broken with them, it is really very important to find out why and what his beliefs are and how he has come to them.
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Old 04-26-2010, 11:39 AM - Thread Starter
 
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No disrespect intended to the OP but I was thinking the SAME THING. And as Liquesce said, yeah, looks like all the same issues all over again.

May I also gently suggest counseling to determine why you keep seeking out guys from Muslim backgrounds who have big question marks about their backgrounds?
Big question marks about backgrounds....not sure how you mean?

And I can't help who I'm attracted to. I like these guys with tanned skin and dark hair/eyes. Your post made it sound like I've had relationships with 10+ when it's only been 2.

I know relationships with different religions can be hard. However he isn't a practicing Muslim, which makes it easier. He doesn't expect me to convert or anything like that, knows I have a religious christian background myself, and has said he would be willing to go to a church with me and have his child raised christian if that's what his wife wanted. He doesn't want a muslim partner, I asked him that....he didn't really explain why though, I'll have to ask about that again because I do wonder. He isn't like a strict muslim man would be though, and if he was, then I wouldn't have even tried and likely he wouldnt either as he would have wanted a Muslim woman.

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Originally Posted by umsami View Post
In my experience, even among non-practicing Muslims, there are a few things they almost always do:

1) Not eat pork
2) Usually not drink alcohol...although this does vary
3) Fast during Ramadan (it's weird... but I know people who never pray, don't go to the mosque, drink... yet when Ramadan comes around, they fast)
4) Circumcize their male kids
Now I understand better, why he does some things but not others. I will ask him about this at some point, it seems too early for right now...."hey, what are your feelings on circ?" I'll leave it for now, but at least it's cleared some things up.

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Old 04-26-2010, 11:43 AM - Thread Starter
 
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No disrespect intended to the OP but I was thinking the SAME THING. And as Liquesce said, yeah, looks like all the same issues all over again.

May I also gently suggest counseling to determine why you keep seeking out guys from Muslim backgrounds who have big question marks about their backgrounds?
Big question marks about backgrounds....not sure how you mean?

And I can't help who I'm attracted to. I like these guys with tanned skin and dark hair/eyes. Your post made it sound like I've had relationships with 10+ when it's only been 2.

I know relationships with different religions can be hard. However he isn't a practicing Muslim, which makes it easier. He doesn't expect me to convert or anything like that, knows I have a religious christian background myself, and has said he would be willing to go to a church with me and have his child raised christian if that's what his wife wanted. He doesn't want a muslim partner, I asked him that....he didn't really explain why though, I'll have to ask about that again because I do wonder. He isn't like a strict muslim man would be though, and if he was, then I wouldn't have even tried and likely he wouldnt either as he would have wanted a Muslim woman.

Quote:
Originally Posted by umsami View Post
In my experience, even among non-practicing Muslims, there are a few things they almost always do:

1) Not eat pork
2) Usually not drink alcohol...although this does vary
3) Fast during Ramadan (it's weird... but I know people who never pray, don't go to the mosque, drink... yet when Ramadan comes around, they fast)
4) Circumcize their male kids
Now I understand better, why he does some things but not others. I will ask him about this at some point, it seems too early for right now...."hey, what are your feelings on circ?" I'll leave it for now, but at least it's cleared some things up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexsam View Post
Of course, there might be situations or "cultural pockets" that make what they say not applicable, but they are giving you important pieces of information that you need to evaluate regarding the cultural and religious norms he is connected with (and how you might fit in with them), and if he has broken with them, it is really very important to find out why and what his beliefs are and how he has come to them.
Good point and I want to know about this too. It could be that he left a muslim country and has adapted to live in a christian one....but maybe there is more to it than that.

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Old 04-26-2010, 01:30 PM
 
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Big question marks about backgrounds....not sure how you mean?

And I can't help who I'm attracted to. I like these guys with tanned skin and dark hair/eyes. Your post made it sound like I've had relationships with 10+ when it's only been 2.

I know relationships with different religions can be hard. However he isn't a practicing Muslim, which makes it easier. He doesn't expect me to convert or anything like that, knows I have a religious christian background myself, and has said he would be willing to go to a church with me and have his child raised christian if that's what his wife wanted. He doesn't want a muslim partner, I asked him that....he didn't really explain why though, I'll have to ask about that again because I do wonder. He isn't like a strict muslim man would be though, and if he was, then I wouldn't have even tried and likely he wouldnt either as he would have wanted a Muslim woman.



Now I understand better, why he does some things but not others. I will ask him about this at some point, it seems too early for right now...."hey, what are your feelings on circ?" I'll leave it for now, but at least it's cleared some things up.



Good point and I want to know about this too. It could be that he left a muslim country and has adapted to live in a christian one....but maybe there is more to it than that.
While it is true that we may all have natural inclinations to being attracted to a certain type of person and feel we can't "help it," there can be underlying psychological causes worth exploring. Some women are extremely excited by men who are very possessive and may not value them. Some women are very attracted to abusive personalities. Like I just realized it is likely my father has NPD which probably played a huge role with me being attracted to the same type of guys who all tend to be misogynistic, possessive, devalue their partners, act superior to other people. I am not saying this is necessarily the case with your relationships, but I do want to say this to about every single woman I meet. Go google abusive personality types and NPD and know the warning signs before choosing a partner. Many times woman don't see their partners true nature until it's too late, but there are warning signs. I know this is getting off topic, but it never hurts to educate yourself about these things. You can "help it" by realizing your relationship is not healthy and getting out before entrenched in it.

That being aside, I am an american Muslim and I am a very strict observant Muslim. Even then I find a lot of common cultural things very difficult to deal with. If I was not Muslim I don't think I could deal with it at all. I know some men may be more Americanized and are not observant Muslims, but that doesn't keep them from their cultural baggage or possible adverse upbringing.

I have to be honest here, if you are Christian and like to date Muslim guys do it in a temporary relationship for excitement. Don't put too much involvement and long term thinking in it, because most likely he is not thinking commitment. I know you don't want to hear that because you think he might be different. I have personal experience of this before I was Muslim and even though his observance was pretty much nil he informed me that he needs to marry from his culture and told me about his past relationships which ended when they each insisted the children be raised in their faith, not the other person's faith. Really, even if he does end up wanting to marry you, you can be certain the children will be expected to be Muslim. He may not come out with this now because it is likely the prospect of marriage has not crossed his mind in the slightest, or it did in a fantasy where you turn Muslim and rear Muslim kids.
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Old 04-27-2010, 12:39 AM
 
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Big question marks about backgrounds....not sure how you mean?
I would be if this wasn't so
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