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#1 of 97 Old 11-21-2010, 08:36 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Here on the Feast of Christ the King, I want to try an "all comers" Catholic chat if folks are up for it.

 

My 10 year old makes her first Reconciliation soon and my dad is unconscious, likely to be called Home in the next little bit.

 

We sing in our choir, attend catechesis with the younger one with selective mutism and live our Catholic life together.

 

We are a two mom family.

 

I'm in the middle of a career change, carrying the above family times and prepping for advent. I'd love to hang out with y'all and hear how you are preparing for the change in liturgical season!

 

Alleluia!

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#2 of 97 Old 11-21-2010, 09:14 AM
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It sounds like you've got a lot going on.  You are all in my prayers.  The first colds of the season are putting a kink in my Advent preparations, but I'm more on top of it than I have been any year yet since I got married.  It always seems like Advent sneaks up on me, and it's half way through the first week before I've got the wreath going.  This will be our first Christmas in our own house, so I'm excited about starting our own traditions.

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#3 of 97 Old 11-21-2010, 09:21 AM
 
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Hello, chfriend!  I am sorry to hear about your dad.  My MIL is now in a nursing home and getting less aware all the time, so we are facing losing her soon.  First Communion is such an exciting time - I look back with fond memories of the days when my children were that small and we all learned together.

 

I am trying to discern my place in the Church right now.  My parish has taken a very hard turn to the right, and all the social justice and love thy neighbor teachings have given way to telling me how to vote and reminding me to pray and work to "save" traditional marriage.  My husband and I are going to try a different parish to see if the fit is right with the Franciscans.

 

I try every year to prepare for advent by recognizing my own bad habits (bossiness and pouting to name a couple) and working to curb them.  I offer up extra prayers for others and try to see all the ways I have truly been blessed in this life.  We will have our church giving wreath set up on the first Sunday in advent, and we usually take care of several cases.

 

We have a new priest, and I am sad that he has cancelled  Midnight Mass.  It was the mass we particularly enjoyed as a family.  My adult children were home, and my daughter would sing in the choir, my son would read, and my husband and I would be Extraordinary Ministers of Communion.  Not sure what we will do this year.

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#4 of 97 Old 11-21-2010, 09:25 AM
 
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edited for privacy.

it warms my heart to see non-traditional families finding a place in the church.

i'm glad to see you start up this thread because i've been reading a lot about catholicism recently, getting ready to move back to the US (we're in peru at the moment) and looking forward to returning to mass at my old parish. my son is now old enough to participate in the sunday school activities; i usually alternate between letting my mom take him to first day school at the quaker meeting she attends and taking him to mass with me. he will be getting baptized either in december here in peru or in february after we move back home. we waited a long time so both sides of his family could be present, and now his dad's side is kind of flaking out at the last minute, hence it might just be after we leave.

i converted as a teenager and then stopped practicing for a few years until i made my way back to the church after my son was born. i still debate whether or not i should truly be an episcopalian...but i haven't left yet and have no plans to do so. but that'll give you a sense of where i lie on the 'true to the faith' spectrum. my partner was raised catholic, but considers himself 'spiritual and ecumenical, but not religious'...his extended family is very very evangelical and i think he's gotten tired out of religion by being exposed to them smile.gif my parents were raised episcopalian and catholic, but both attend quaker meeting now.

what else? pregnant with a solstice baby, waiting to get OUT of peru again (i'm so homesick!), looking for my first "real" social work job after graduating with a MSW, and i've been doing bible readings and 'saint of the day' emails which have been a great easy way to include spirituality.

oh, advent! i'm really bummed to be spending christmas in the southern hemisphere. it's not the same, i don't know the mass in Spanish, the church here has a very different feel (no little kids, no hymnals/missals...totally different atmosphere from my church), christmas isn't celebrated in a big way here (just a christmas eve spaghetti dinner with the family and then usually adults go out partying). i don't think we are going to do much of anything greensad.gif i've been having a really rough time with pregnancy nausea for the last month or so and my motivation to do anything more than lie in bed and read is shot. ask me again in a few weeks when i start feeling better!

raising my two sunshine children.

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#5 of 97 Old 11-23-2010, 04:15 PM
 
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oh, did i really kill this thread??? nooooo! redface.gif

raising my two sunshine children.

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#6 of 97 Old 11-24-2010, 10:38 AM
 
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joy.gifOh, this may just be the PERFECT place for me!

 

I'm currently spreading myself between two parishes - the one I've been at for years (and where I worship with my kids), and also B's parish, which is merging with another next year.  He and are are evangelization team leaders for a Diocesan initiative called "Amazing God", which we are using to facilitate the merger and to bring inactive Catholics back to the faith.

 

For Advent prayer, I'm using the Magnificat devotions and "The Little Blue Book" of six-minute daily reflections on the infancy narrative of Matthew.

I also find the Sacred Space website (Irish Jesuits) to be enormously helpful in my busy day.

 

I'll be going through the annullment process soon, and would appreciate prayers for that to go smoothly.

 

chfriend, I'm so sorry about your dad and I pray that his journey home is painless and filled with the Light of Christ.  hug.gif


I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. 

 Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi 

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#7 of 97 Old 11-26-2010, 03:32 PM
 
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i am not crafty at all and i'm trying to be very frugal, so my son and i were excited to find these websites with daily advent calendars: http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Christianity/Advent/Advent-Calendar.aspx http://www.smmp.com/Advent/Advent.php we're going to look at them each day as well as praying and talking about the story of christmas.

i'm getting a reading list together of books on christianity and catholicism to read in the new year. any recommendations? i am going to read some marcus borg and i have a book on liberation theology i have been saving.

raising my two sunshine children.

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#8 of 97 Old 11-29-2010, 02:03 PM
 
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Sigh.

 

As part of the Amazing God initiative, we asked parishioners at the three Masses this weekend to write a short letter to God, telling Him what's on their hearts & their dreams for this Advent season and going forward.  Our intent was to work with Fr. D on the Advent reconciliation service, using the letters as a theme.  Unfortunately, the response was rather disappointing (35 letters).  Many who did respond either didn't take the task seriously (Dear God, Last night I dreamed that a hamburger was eating ME!) shake.gif , or they used vague/discombobulated thoughts that were difficult to read & understand.  We're doing this over two weekends so hopefully those who didn't respond will think it over this week and submit something useful next weekend.

 

I did come across a great Advent reflection during my prayer time this morning, though.

 

O little inn of Bethlehem

How like we are to you.

Our lives are crowded to the brim

With this and that to do.

We're not unfriendly to the King,

We mean well without a doubt;

We have no hostile feelings,

We merely crowd Him out.

 

(Getting Ready for Christmas, ed. Emma Lapp)


I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. 

 Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi 

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#9 of 97 Old 11-29-2010, 02:40 PM
 
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(Dear God, Last night I dreamed that a hamburger was eating ME!)
did someone actually write that? lol, it's a seinfeld quote....probably only funny to a seinfeld junkie like myself.

but it sounds like a very good idea and i hope you get some better responses.

my son and i have been opening the Advent calendar daily and it's a fun, exciting way to bring Advent into our day. that is a beautiful Advent reflection, i'll share it tonight with my son!

raising my two sunshine children.

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#10 of 97 Old 11-30-2010, 05:38 AM
 
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Yeah. someone really wrote that.  I can appreciate a good Seinfeld gag as much as anyone, but this was just the wrong context for that humor.  We really needed thoughtful responses.


I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. 

 Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi 

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#11 of 97 Old 12-02-2010, 09:36 AM
 
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O little inn of Bethlehem

How like we are to you.

Our lives are crowded to the brim

With this and that to do.

We're not unfriendly to the King,

We mean well without a doubt;

We have no hostile feelings,

We merely crowd Him out.

 

(Getting Ready for Christmas, ed. Emma Lapp)



Blogged it (because I love it). Thanks!


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#12 of 97 Old 12-05-2010, 12:37 PM
 
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We got a few more letters this weekend, most of them more thoughtful.  Enough there to work on the theme for next Sunday's reconciliation service.

 

chfriend, how are things going?


I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. 

 Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi 

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#13 of 97 Old 12-09-2010, 09:10 AM
 
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how is everyone doing?

i am wondering if anyone has considered converting to the episcopalian/anglican church and decided against it? obviously if you had been for it, you wouldn't be here still smile.gif sometimes i think maybe i should be there, because it's 'catholic lite' and theologically very similar but more liberal as far as social teachings. but i'm stubborn and still won't leave.

i go through periodic crises where i think --do i really belong here? how much are my beliefs going to grow? what would happen if i left?-- because i believe in about 99% of church teaching but have one tiny little hangup where i know it's not a question of me not fully understanding what the church is teaching, but me just flat out disagreeing with their logic and thus their conclusions in a specific social teaching. i also know my parish is pretty liberal and that this specific teaching is not promoted to the extent that other things are (not that they oppose the official position but it's just not a major topic of discussion), so it's not like every week i am listening to something i disagree with.

i know the traditional catholic answer is 'get on board or get off the ship, things don't change here, change yourself or go' which is sad. i know the realistic, middle of the road catholic answer is 'the church is a family, there's room for everyone, you'd do better within the church than without' and then the radical or liberal approach would be 'discernment can lead you to faithfully oppose a church teaching without being a heretic or a sinner, stay and speak out!'

i don't think it would be helpful necessarily for me to explain the specific teaching, but i am happy to do so if asked and i will say it's nothing specified in the Creed. i am theologically quite conservative, just not socially.

eta: I am going to make an appointment to talk to my priest and get some guidance on this as well, once we're back in the US.

raising my two sunshine children.

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#14 of 97 Old 12-09-2010, 11:25 AM
 
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Originally Posted by la mamita View Post

how is everyone doing?

i am wondering if anyone has considered converting to the episcopalian/anglican church and decided against it? obviously if you had been for it, you wouldn't be here still smile.gif sometimes i think maybe i should be there, because it's 'catholic lite' and theologically very similar but more liberal as far as social teachings. but i'm stubborn and still won't leave.

i go through periodic crises where i think --do i really belong here? how much are my beliefs going to grow? what would happen if i left?-- because i believe in about 99% of church teaching but have one tiny little hangup where i know it's not a question of me not fully understanding what the church is teaching, but me just flat out disagreeing with their logic and thus their conclusions in a specific social teaching. i also know my parish is pretty liberal and that this specific teaching is not promoted to the extent that other things are (not that they oppose the official position but it's just not a major topic of discussion), so it's not like every week i am listening to something i disagree with.

i know the traditional catholic answer is 'get on board or get off the ship, things don't change here, change yourself or go' which is sad. i know the realistic, middle of the road catholic answer is 'the church is a family, there's room for everyone, you'd do better within the church than without' and then the radical or liberal approach would be 'discernment can lead you to faithfully oppose a church teaching without being a heretic or a sinner, stay and speak out!'

i don't think it would be helpful necessarily for me to explain the specific teaching, but i am happy to do so if asked and i will say it's nothing specified in the Creed. i am theologically quite conservative, just not socially.

eta: I am going to make an appointment to talk to my priest and get some guidance on this as well, once we're back in the US.


I don't think these two are necessarily opposed. The Church is not going to change, true, and thank the Lord for that. I don't think we really want a church that changes willy-nilly to keep up with the secular world. However, we are definitely a family, and even if you're personally opposed to a social teaching of the Church, you'd do better within than without. As long as outwardly you keep your dissident opinions to yourself and don't try to cause a mutiny.

 

I'm not trying to be offensive in this post, so please don't mistake my tone.


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#15 of 97 Old 12-09-2010, 11:56 AM
 
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Originally Posted by la mamita View Post

how is everyone doing?

i am wondering if anyone has considered converting to the episcopalian/anglican church and decided against it? obviously if you had been for it, you wouldn't be here still smile.gif sometimes i think maybe i should be there, because it's 'catholic lite' and theologically very similar but more liberal as far as social teachings. but i'm stubborn and still won't leave.

i go through periodic crises where i think --do i really belong here? how much are my beliefs going to grow? what would happen if i left?-- because i believe in about 99% of church teaching but have one tiny little hangup where i know it's not a question of me not fully understanding what the church is teaching, but me just flat out disagreeing with their logic and thus their conclusions in a specific social teaching. i also know my parish is pretty liberal and that this specific teaching is not promoted to the extent that other things are (not that they oppose the official position but it's just not a major topic of discussion), so it's not like every week i am listening to something i disagree with.

i know the traditional catholic answer is 'get on board or get off the ship, things don't change here, change yourself or go' which is sad. i know the realistic, middle of the road catholic answer is 'the church is a family, there's room for everyone, you'd do better within the church than without' and then the radical or liberal approach would be 'discernment can lead you to faithfully oppose a church teaching without being a heretic or a sinner, stay and speak out!'

i don't think it would be helpful necessarily for me to explain the specific teaching, but i am happy to do so if asked and i will say it's nothing specified in the Creed. i am theologically quite conservative, just not socially.

eta: I am going to make an appointment to talk to my priest and get some guidance on this as well, once we're back in the US.

 

I don't agree with a lot of Church teaching, and I do think that the Church needs to evolve.  And I think that's okay.  The Church is a living, breathing entity, and shouldn't be a stagnant insitution mired in outdated/irrelevant teachings (celibate priesthood, for example).

 

I choose to stay because I do love the Catholic faith, despite what I consider to be its faults & failings in leadership, and I'm deeply enamored of the Eucharist.  I want to push back.  And I don't mind making a little noise about my feelings.

 


I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. 

 Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by la mamita View Post

how is everyone doing?

i am wondering if anyone has considered converting to the episcopalian/anglican church and decided against it? obviously if you had been for it, you wouldn't be here still smile.gif sometimes i think maybe i should be there, because it's 'catholic lite' and theologically very similar but more liberal as far as social teachings. but i'm stubborn and still won't leave.

i go through periodic crises where i think --do i really belong here? how much are my beliefs going to grow? what would happen if i left?-- because i believe in about 99% of church teaching but have one tiny little hangup where i know it's not a question of me not fully understanding what the church is teaching, but me just flat out disagreeing with their logic and thus their conclusions in a specific social teaching. i also know my parish is pretty liberal and that this specific teaching is not promoted to the extent that other things are (not that they oppose the official position but it's just not a major topic of discussion), so it's not like every week i am listening to something i disagree with.

i know the traditional catholic answer is 'get on board or get off the ship, things don't change here, change yourself or go' which is sad. i know the realistic, middle of the road catholic answer is 'the church is a family, there's room for everyone, you'd do better within the church than without' and then the radical or liberal approach would be 'discernment can lead you to faithfully oppose a church teaching without being a heretic or a sinner, stay and speak out!'

i don't think it would be helpful necessarily for me to explain the specific teaching, but i am happy to do so if asked and i will say it's nothing specified in the Creed. i am theologically quite conservative, just not socially.

eta: I am going to make an appointment to talk to my priest and get some guidance on this as well, once we're back in the US.

 

I don't agree with a lot of Church teaching, and I do think that the Church needs to evolve.  And I think that's okay.  The Church is a living, breathing entity, and shouldn't be a stagnant insitution mired in outdated/irrelevant teachings (celibate priesthood, for example).

 

I choose to stay because I do love the Catholic faith, despite what I consider to be its faults & failings in leadership, and I'm deeply enamored of the Eucharist.  I want to push back.  And I don't mind making a little noise about my feelings.

 



The Church has evolved, and I think on certain things that's OK. But there are several "hot-button" issues right now about which the Church's stance absolutely should not change because they are moral issues.

 

The celibate priesthood I could take or leave as I don't see it to be a moral issue. And historically there have been times when the priests were married, so the precedent is there (and of course Eastern Catholics have married priests even today). However, as long as the Vatican is against the practice, we have a duty to obedience.

 

I'm sure there are proper channels to get a particular thing changed, but to publicly oppose an official teaching creates dissidence among the faithful and confusion in the outside world. We need to remain a strong, united body, even when we privately disagree.


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#17 of 97 Old 12-09-2010, 01:23 PM
 
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First, I thought this thread was a continuation of the New Beginnings threads from back in the day, so I don't know if I would have posted initially since it is not, apparently. I am aware of what the orthodox viewpoint is on Catholics like me and I am not asking for that input. I respect people who have completely accepted and follow Church teaching and I recognize that you (speaking generally to anyone who might be reading along) might think I either don't understand the teaching properly/don't belong in the Church/are being willfully defiant and sinful and that you are speaking with the best of intentions, but I really need input from people who don't agree with everything but have made a point to stick around anyway.

Second, if you are one of those "mutinous" Catholics, where do you find support? I have been reading so much about Catholicism online and the vast majority seems to be from an orthodox perspective. I know this isn't the reality of the majority of Catholics--take the church's teachings on birth control and contraceptive rates by Catholics in the US, for example, even though that's not an issue of personal contention for me and I really appreciate the Church teaching on it, it's a good example. I want to know--how come all THOSE Catholics are sticking with the church? are they struggling with the same questions I am? where are their voices? I suppose one could argue that Catholics who aren't orthodox just go through the motions or weren't properly catechized, but I can't believe that is true for all of them! i want to hear from people who are struggling, who are wrestling with the teachings, who question their conscience, who do feel a deep sense of faith...

If you are one of the non-traditional Catholics, do you respond to the traditional viewpoint? Is this something that has come up in your daily life, has anyone challenged your faith or your presence in the Church? Or is this just a message board phenomenon? (I may have been reading too many old Catholic threads on the Religious Studies forum innocent.gif )

I wrote all of this but didn't post it and then was walking to pick up my kid and realized if I die at this moment and am sitting face to face with God and making a reckoning for all of the things I have done in my life, I could be at peace saying "I knew your Church's teaching on XXX and I disobeyed it in my heart because I believed it to be wrong, not out of a selfish reason because I wanted to justify my own behavior but because I believed your message to be otherwise and because I prayed and reflected on your love and studied the Church's position and could not promote it in good conscience." Do with me what you will, but I do not feel guilt about this from this moment forward.

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First, I thought this thread was a continuation of the New Beginnings threads from back in the day, so I don't know if I would have posted initially since it is not, apparently. I am aware of what the orthodox viewpoint is on Catholics like me and I am not asking for that input. I respect people who have completely accepted and follow Church teaching and I recognize that you (speaking generally to anyone who might be reading along) might think I either don't understand the teaching properly/don't belong in the Church/are being willfully defiant and sinful and that you are speaking with the best of intentions, but I really need input from people who don't agree with everything but have made a point to stick around anyway.

Second, if you are one of those "mutinous" Catholics, where do you find support? I have been reading so much about Catholicism online and the vast majority seems to be from an orthodox perspective. I know this isn't the reality of the majority of Catholics--take the church's teachings on birth control and contraceptive rates by Catholics in the US, for example, even though that's not an issue of personal contention for me and I really appreciate the Church teaching on it, it's a good example. I want to know--how come all THOSE Catholics are sticking with the church? are they struggling with the same questions I am? where are their voices? I suppose one could argue that Catholics who aren't orthodox just go through the motions or weren't properly catechized, but I can't believe that is true for all of them! i want to hear from people who are struggling, who are wrestling with the teachings, who question their conscience, who do feel a deep sense of faith...

If you are one of the non-traditional Catholics, do you respond to the traditional viewpoint? Is this something that has come up in your daily life, has anyone challenged your faith or your presence in the Church? Or is this just a message board phenomenon? (I may have been reading too many old Catholic threads on the Religious Studies forum innocent.gif )

I wrote all of this but didn't post it and then was walking to pick up my kid and realized if I die at this moment and am sitting face to face with God and making a reckoning for all of the things I have done in my life, I could be at peace saying "I knew your Church's teaching on XXX and I disobeyed it in my heart because I believed it to be wrong, not out of a selfish reason because I wanted to justify my own behavior but because I believed your message to be otherwise and because I prayed and reflected on your love and studied the Church's position and could not promote it in good conscience." Do with me what you will, but I do not feel guilt about this from this moment forward.


I feel like I should apologize to you. I wasn't trying to rag on you or make you feel like you don't belong. I think it's OK to have doubts/questions and wrestle with teachings. I just think it's dangerous to do it too publicly or in a certain way.

 

FWIW, I think a lot of the Catholics that are "non-traditional" have decided for themselves what is or isn't right, and the old fuddy-duddy Church should just get with the program or be left behind. Their thoughts and ideas are the be all and end all, not the Tradition and teaching of the Church (or the teachings of the Father or Jesus, for that matter). It's relativism at its best (or worst). My friend calls them closet Protestants.


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#19 of 97 Old 12-09-2010, 05:59 PM
 
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The Church has evolved, and I think on certain things that's OK. But there are several "hot-button" issues right now about which the Church's stance absolutely should not change because they are moral issues.

 

The celibate priesthood I could take or leave as I don't see it to be a moral issue. And historically there have been times when the priests were married, so the precedent is there (and of course Eastern Catholics have married priests even today). However, as long as the Vatican is against the practice, we have a duty to obedience.

 

I'm sure there are proper channels to get a particular thing changed, but to publicly oppose an official teaching creates dissidence among the faithful and confusion in the outside world. We need to remain a strong, united body, even when we privately disagree.


I strongly disagree with the bolded, but this is a SA only forum and I can't debate that.
 

 



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First, I thought this thread was a continuation of the New Beginnings threads from back in the day, so I don't know if I would have posted initially since it is not, apparently. I am aware of what the orthodox viewpoint is on Catholics like me and I am not asking for that input. I respect people who have completely accepted and follow Church teaching and I recognize that you (speaking generally to anyone who might be reading along) might think I either don't understand the teaching properly/don't belong in the Church/are being willfully defiant and sinful and that you are speaking with the best of intentions, but I really need input from people who don't agree with everything but have made a point to stick around anyway.

 

 

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 Second, if you are one of those "mutinous" Catholics, where do you find support? I have been reading so much about Catholicism online and the vast majority seems to be from an orthodox perspective. I know this isn't the reality of the majority of Catholics--take the church's teachings on birth control and contraceptive rates by Catholics in the US, for example, even though that's not an issue of personal contention for me and I really appreciate the Church teaching on it, it's a good example. I want to know--how come all THOSE Catholics are sticking with the church? are they struggling with the same questions I am? where are their voices? I suppose one could argue that Catholics who aren't orthodox just go through the motions or weren't properly catechized, but I can't believe that is true for all of them! i want to hear from people who are struggling, who are wrestling with the teachings, who question their conscience, who do feel a deep sense of faith...

 

 

I'm very fortunate to share my faith with a lot of like-minded Catholics IRL, in a GREAT diocese with a wonderful bishop who fully supports women in ministry and a vibrant, Christ-centered church.  I'm also incredibly blessed to be partnered with a like-minded man!  We have had 2 years of intensive training to be commissioned by the bishop as lay Catholic ecclesial ministers, and we are currently ministering together as team leaders for a new 3-year evangelization initiative in our diocese, Amazing God.  We are working on AG with a fantastic priest, as well.

 

B is fond of saying that it's time to do away with "The Good Old Boys' Club" in Rome.  He is especially fond of the Sisters of St. Joseph (his spiritual director is a CSJ), and thinks that THEY should be running the Church!  We are both passionate about sharing our faith and Our Lord's grace & mercy with others.  Though we may disagree with some Church teaching, and though we are frustrated and often angry with the Vatican, we love the core essence of our Catholic faith - the grace of the Sacraments, the beauty of the rituals, and especially the mystery and awe of the Eucharist.


I don't necessarily struggle with my disagreement anymore ... I did once, but the education I received in ministry training helped me understand that the Church HAS evolved (albeit slowly), that it's OK to question teaching that comes with limited human thinking/knowledge (and sometimes agenda) attached, that our church's leadership has, does, and will continue to make mistakes.

 

B and I have been fortunate to have many lively, thought-provoking, and intense discussions regarding faith matters, with lots of interesting people - both Catholic and non-Catholic.  We regularly chew on this stuff, and we take all kinds of classes offered by the diocese throughout the year.  We are always learning and growing in our faith!

 

 

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 If you are one of the non-traditional Catholics, do you respond to the traditional viewpoint? Is this something that has come up in your daily life, has anyone challenged your faith or your presence in the Church? Or is this just a message board phenomenon? (I may have been reading too many old Catholic threads on the Religious Studies forum innocent.gif )

 

Mostly I am challenged online.  Though not all of my Catholic brothers and sisters IRL share my viewpoint (though most in my own faith circle do), we can dialogue about it peacefully and respectfully agree to disagree.  The exception is my ex-ILs, who are pretty hard core toe-the-line Catholics.  I discovered a long time ago that it was better just to avoid discussion of faith matters altogether with them.

 

 

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I wrote all of this but didn't post it and then was walking to pick up my kid and realized if I die at this moment and am sitting face to face with God and making a reckoning for all of the things I have done in my life, I could be at peace saying "I knew your Church's teaching on XXX and I disobeyed it in my heart because I believed it to be wrong, not out of a selfish reason because I wanted to justify my own behavior but because I believed your message to be otherwise and because I prayed and reflected on your love and studied the Church's position and could not promote it in good conscience." Do with me what you will, but I do not feel guilt about this from this moment forward. 

 

It seems you have discerned this to the best of your ability, and are at peace with it.  It sounds like you have a solid relationship with Our Lord, that you wish to be faithful to Him, and that you rely on Him alone for your salvation.  IMO that's just as it should be.

 

So what exactly are you struggling with?  Do you want to leave the Church, try to change what you can, or otherwise?

 

 

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FWIW, I think a lot of the Catholics that are "non-traditional" have decided for themselves what is or isn't right, and the old fuddy-duddy Church should just get with the program or be left behind. Their thoughts and ideas are the be all and end all, not the Tradition and teaching of the Church (or the teachings of the Father or Jesus, for that matter). It's relativism at its best (or worst). My friend calls them closet Protestants.


That's insulting, and doesn't belong on this thread IMO.  Are you even aware of what Jesus really taught?  Have you read any good books on Christology, or the complete history of the Catholic Church?
 


I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. 

 Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi 

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#20 of 97 Old 12-09-2010, 07:52 PM
 
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FWIW, I think a lot of the Catholics that are "non-traditional" have decided for themselves what is or isn't right, and the old fuddy-duddy Church should just get with the program or be left behind. Their thoughts and ideas are the be all and end all, not the Tradition and teaching of the Church (or the teachings of the Father or Jesus, for that matter). It's relativism at its best (or worst). My friend calls them closet Protestants.


That's insulting, and doesn't belong on this thread IMO.  Are you even aware of what Jesus really taught?  Have you read any good books on Christology, or the complete history of the Catholic Church?
 


I was responding to the part bolded below, and I'm sorry if you took offense to it. I didn't say all. I said a lot. So if that doesn't describe you, I don't understand why you're upset.

 

I am aware of what Jesus really taught. And, yes, I've read books on Church history. I also know that part of being Catholic is being faithful not just to Scripture but also to Tradition. And being faithful to the teachings of the Magisterium. Like I said before, I'm sure there are correct ways of bringing about change and if one feels led to do that, that's great. But trashing the Vatican and "toe-the-line" Catholics isn't helpful. And I find that just as insulting (because I'm trying to be a faithful so it does describe me).

 

Anyway, I didn't want to insult anyone or really debate anything. I thought this thread was for all-comers, not just Catholics unhappy with the Church. And I have simply responded to statements made by others.

 

Can we agree to disagree? If not, I'll just unsub.

 



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Second, if you are one of those "mutinous" Catholics, where do you find support? I have been reading so much about Catholicism online and the vast majority seems to be from an orthodox perspective. I know this isn't the reality of the majority of Catholics--take the church's teachings on birth control and contraceptive rates by Catholics in the US, for example, even though that's not an issue of personal contention for me and I really appreciate the Church teaching on it, it's a good example. I want to know--how come all THOSE Catholics are sticking with the church? are they struggling with the same questions I am? where are their voices? I suppose one could argue that Catholics who aren't orthodox just go through the motions or weren't properly catechized, but I can't believe that is true for all of them! i want to hear from people who are struggling, who are wrestling with the teachings, who question their conscience, who do feel a deep sense of faith...
 



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#21 of 97 Old 12-10-2010, 10:11 AM
 
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i am wondering if anyone has considered converting to the episcopalian/anglican church and decided against it? obviously if you had been for it, you wouldn't be here still smile.gif sometimes i think maybe i should be there, because it's 'catholic lite' and theologically very similar but more liberal as far as social teachings. but i'm stubborn and still won't leave.

i go through periodic crises where i think --do i really belong here? how much are my beliefs going to grow? what would happen if i left?-- because i believe in about 99% of church teaching but have one tiny little hangup where i know it's not a question of me not fully understanding what the church is teaching, but me just flat out disagreeing with their logic and thus their conclusions in a specific social teaching. i also know my parish is pretty liberal and that this specific teaching is not promoted to the extent that other things are (not that they oppose the official position but it's just not a major topic of discussion), so it's not like every week i am listening to something i disagree with.
 


I am posting specifically to the above quoted material.

 

I found this video today and thought it was relevant. Hope it helps.


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 I wrote all of this but didn't post it and then was walking to pick up my kid and realized if I die at this moment and am sitting face to face with God and making a reckoning for all of the things I have done in my life, I could be at peace saying "I knew your Church's teaching on XXX and I disobeyed it in my heart because I believed it to be wrong, not out of a selfish reason because I wanted to justify my own behavior but because I believed your message to be otherwise and because I prayed and reflected on your love and studied the Church's position and could not promote it in good conscience." Do with me what you will, but I do not feel guilt about this from this moment forward.


This is basically how I feel about it.  Not to say there aren't things I feel guilty about anyway.  I also think there is a difference between agreeing with the church morally and wanting that legislated.  I attended a Dignity Mass in San Antonio for a while when I lived there and that was a truly beautiful experience.  The palpable love in the room felt like a gift to God far above what I had felt with the more conservative folks.  

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#23 of 97 Old 12-10-2010, 02:06 PM
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I'm sorry to see a support thread turn into this.  If we're going to have an all-comers Catholic thread, maybe we should stick to the practice of the faith and praying for each other.  Historically all-comers Catholic threads have had a difficult time on MDC.  The traditional Catholics have a thread to bring up struggles relating to following closely to the teachings of the Magisterium, and at times, there has been a liberal Catholic thread as well.  Perhaps a liberal Catholic thread would be a more helpful place for some of you who know that you understand and disagree with certain teachings of the Catholic Church.

 

La mamita, I can understand the difficulties you are having.  I think that the Catholic Church is the best place for us, even for people who disagree with it at times.  We need to be constantly open and growing, and the Catholic Church is the most excellent place for that journey.  The spiritual journey is not one where you reach a point where you are "saved," and that's it.  You're heading for heaven.  It is a journey where you are constantly growing and trying to perfect your life, finding deeper and deeper stages of conversion.  I can look back on my life, things I said and did, and think how could I have thought that.  Though it gives me a compassion for others who think that too.  You have to be constantly open to God working in your life.  I love our beautiful liturgical seasons and have to ask in each season, how does God want me to grow this season?  I think the Catholic Church, the Church that Christ founded, is the best place to foster that growth.

 

At the same time, you should not pretend to be something that you are not.  This is not something that I or anyone else can decide for you.  It is something you have to understand for yourself.  Do your differences make you feel unaccepted by the people of the Church, of do your disagreements make you unable to fully embrace the Catholic faith.  You mention the Episcopalian Church.  Do the beliefs of the Episcopalian Church better mesh with your beliefs in a way that would allow you to fully embrace it, or is there something about the Catholic Church that makes you know that it is the True Church, and even though you have your disagreements, she is your mother, and she is going to help guide you to heaven.

 

I hope that helps.  Full disclosure: I'm a Catholic who tries to follow the pope and the Magisterium, and I do not mean to be offensive, though you may disagree with what I say.

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...and even though you have your disagreements, she is your mother, and she is going to help guide you to heaven.

 

 


Ding, ding ding. To me dissent does not equal disrespect or not belonging.  My kids don't agree with me and I don't agree with my mother but we all respect and love one another and no one is bailing out to join another family.

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Quote:
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FWIW, I think a lot of the Catholics that are "non-traditional" have decided for themselves what is or isn't right, and the old fuddy-duddy Church should just get with the program or be left behind. Their thoughts and ideas are the be all and end all, not the Tradition and teaching of the Church (or the teachings of the Father or Jesus, for that matter). It's relativism at its best (or worst). My friend calls them closet Protestants.


That's insulting, and doesn't belong on this thread IMO.  Are you even aware of what Jesus really taught?  Have you read any good books on Christology, or the complete history of the Catholic Church?
 


I was responding to the part bolded below, and I'm sorry if you took offense to it. I didn't say all. I said a lot. So if that doesn't describe you, I don't understand why you're upset.

 



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I'm sorry to see a support thread turn into this.

 

 

The problem here is that this is a support-only forum, and this thread is bordering on debate since the "Traditional Catholics" are obviously not going to agree with the "Liberal Catholics" (for apparent lack of better terms).  It's my uinderstanding that la mamita was asking for support in her struggle with the Catholic faith, and when she received that other posters jumped right in to disagree and point fingers.  If I did that on the "Traditional" thread, even without malicious intentions, I suspect there would be an immediate uproar, and that I'd be in trouble with the moderators.

 

 

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 If we're going to have an all-comers Catholic thread, maybe we should stick to the practice of the faith and praying for each other.  Historically all-comers Catholic threads have had a difficult time on MDC.  The traditional Catholics have a thread to bring up struggles relating to following closely to the teachings of the Magisterium, and at times, there has been a liberal Catholic thread as well.  Perhaps a liberal Catholic thread would be a more helpful place for some of you who know that you understand and disagree with certain teachings of the Catholic Church.

 

Or - we can have an all-comers thread, put on our big girl pants, and simply refrain from debate and disrespecting one another.  I don't think that exclusiveness is the answer.  I sometimes post on the "Traditional" support threads, and I manage to do it without disrespecting the nature of the thread/forum.


I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. 

 Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi 

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#26 of 97 Old 12-11-2010, 09:18 AM
 
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Originally Posted by lavatea View Post



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FWIW, I think a lot of the Catholics that are "non-traditional" have decided for themselves what is or isn't right, and the old fuddy-duddy Church should just get with the program or be left behind. Their thoughts and ideas are the be all and end all, not the Tradition and teaching of the Church (or the teachings of the Father or Jesus, for that matter). It's relativism at its best (or worst). My friend calls them closet Protestants.


That's insulting, and doesn't belong on this thread IMO.  Are you even aware of what Jesus really taught?  Have you read any good books on Christology, or the complete history of the Catholic Church?
 


I was responding to the part bolded below, and I'm sorry if you took offense to it. I didn't say all. I said a lot. So if that doesn't describe you, I don't understand why you're upset.

 



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I'm sorry to see a support thread turn into this.

 

 

The problem here is that this is a support-only forum, and this thread is bordering on debate since the "Traditional Catholics" are obviously not going to agree with the "Liberal Catholics" (for apparent lack of better terms).  It's my uinderstanding that la mamita was asking for support in her struggle with the Catholic faith, and when she received that other posters jumped right in to disagree and point fingers.  If I did that on the "Traditional" thread, even without malicious intentions, I suspect there would be an immediate uproar, and that I'd be in trouble with the moderators.

 

 

Quote:
 If we're going to have an all-comers Catholic thread, maybe we should stick to the practice of the faith and praying for each other.  Historically all-comers Catholic threads have had a difficult time on MDC.  The traditional Catholics have a thread to bring up struggles relating to following closely to the teachings of the Magisterium, and at times, there has been a liberal Catholic thread as well.  Perhaps a liberal Catholic thread would be a more helpful place for some of you who know that you understand and disagree with certain teachings of the Catholic Church.

 

Or - we can have an all-comers thread, put on our big girl pants, and simply refrain from debate and disrespecting one another.  I don't think that exclusiveness is the answer.  I sometimes post on the "Traditional" support threads, and I manage to do it without disrespecting the nature of the thread/forum.



FWIW, I wasn't trying to stir up trouble or even debate (and I haven't noticed any other traditional Catholics on this thread doing that, either). I don't think support means total agreement. Discussing options is not debating. I responded directly to questions posed by la mamita, and I never called out anyone directly on this thread.

 

If you don't want "debate" and you don't want to stick to practice of faith and prayer topics, what do you want from this thread? I'm confused as to where we go from here.

 


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#27 of 97 Old 12-11-2010, 09:57 AM
 
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Well, I am a recent convert to the RCC from the Episcopal church, so I can at least offer my experience with the Episcopal church. There are some teachings that I find hard to swallow in the RCC, especially coming from my very liberal background. However, while I love the inclusiveness of the Episcopal Church, I never felt challenged to be a better Christian. That isn't to say that Episcopalians aren't good Christians, many of them are, but I never felt encouraged to be better. It reminds me of the old saying "don't be so open minded your brain falls out". In many ways I feel like the Episcopal church is afraid to challenge it's members for fear of offending people and the secular world. This goes for a lot of teachings,not just the ones we read about in the news. In my experience it was difficult to discern what exactly is sinful and what isn't. I guess I felt a little lost. When I decided to convert everything simply fell into place.
Now there are some things I really love about the EC. Most of the churches I've been to have great choirs and the congregation actually sings. There's fabulous Anglican chant and a lot of bells and smells. The liturgy and the prayers are beautiful and poetic. I go to a fabulous TLM now, but when I go to a normal Catholic mass, I'm always a little disappointed in the service(I hope this isn't offensive). I also feel like, in a weird way, the congregation is more reverent. They tend to dress very nicely for church, most kneel at the communion rail etc. I also have never met an episcopalian I didn't like:). They tend to be very well educated and articulate. You will also find a lot of diversity in any given parish. It would be hard to not fit in.
It's a hard decision to make. Obviously, I would say be a Catholic. However, if you can't reconcile the your beliefs with Church teaching and it's causing you to have less faith in God, I would suggest looking into the EC. I would rather you find God in another church than abandon Him altogether( I know you didn't say that your faith is wavering, I would just hate for that to happen).

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#28 of 97 Old 12-11-2010, 11:28 AM
 
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lavatea: while i appreciate your concern, in my second post after posing the question about not agreeing with a Church teaching, i specified that i was not looking for the perspective of Traditional/Orthodox Catholics. you replied, again, with an offhand reference to closet Protestants. i found that very upsetting and unsupportive. that was the point where i did not feel comfortable responding on this thread. however, you did ask for clarification, so this is for that purpose.

New Beginnings vs. All-Comers: I think if we want to get into hard questions among the liberal/non-orthodox/questioning Catholics, it would be helpful to go back to a New Beginnings Catholic chat instead of All-Comers. If we're just chatting about Advent and Christmas preparations or the latest homily at Mass without getting into theological issues, then I think everyone could be welcomed and supported in a single thread. I didn't really grasp the difference beforehand, but I now see that it makes a big difference. I know I read all of the Traditional Catholic threads because I learn a lot from some of the articles or questions posed there even if I don't agree with the views stated always, but I respectfully do not post there. I also think that Religious Studies is a great resource (I have spent so much time reading past threads) if we want to get into debate or the nitty gritty of specific doctrines.

scottishmommy: thank you, that is a very helpful perspective. i have attended a few Episcopalian services (mostly funerals, as my grandfather and his brothers are Episcopalian) but i don't think they were full-on mass services or perhaps just a low church style of worship. i do remember one lovely Christmas service when i was a child with the kyrie being chanted.

"However, if you can't reconcile the your beliefs with Church teaching and it's causing you to have less faith in God, I would suggest looking into the EC. I would rather you find God in another church than abandon Him altogether( I know you didn't say that your faith is wavering, I would just hate for that to happen)."
I think if I got to this point, I would totally agree, but luckily this hasn't affected my personal convictions of faith. I'm happy staying with the Church and I have come to peace with that decision, so I've given up thoughts of conversion. After reading more about church history and beliefs, I have some concerns about the EC as a whole historically and how certain doctrines have been abandoned or are optional...so that was another reason to nix the idea. I do wonder what the current state of the EC is worldwide, I know a few years ago it seemed like schism/breaking off for more conservative groups was inevitable and there was a lot of coverage on it but I haven't heard much recently...that's probably OT though!

I would also like to put forward the idea that the Catholic Church does a great job of providing a moral framework and thought process--even in the past when I was very opposed to some other teachings and practices (like the no birth control or anti-choice activities), I have always respected the fact that the Church puts so much thought and effort into creating the teachings. I was reminded of that today when reading about that crazy fundamentalist church (forget the name) picketing Elizabeth Edwards' funeral--the flyer advertising the picket seemed to be written by someone with very poor logical or reasoning skills even apart from its offensive and hateful nature. I can't say that for anything official I've read in the Catholic Church.

I have found that framework and tradition of theology very helpful and, I will admit, I have changed my mind on some of the things I used to disagree with as an adolescent smile.gif Birth control and abortion to name a pretty major example. I've done a 180 since just a few years ago!

So, in short, I'm sticking with the Church. If anyone wants to reply to my previous post about Catholics who struggle with some of the teachings and stay with the Church, I would love to hear from you on this thread or via PM, but I'm not considering converting anymore, so don't worry about convincing me to stay, for better or worse I'm here smile.gif

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#29 of 97 Old 12-11-2010, 12:14 PM
 
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Yay! I'm so glad. I think you are so right about the Church. Despite all the controversies there is stll a profound amount of wisdom behind every bit of dogma.
Generally, I think we could all put a little less emphasis on belief and more on spiritual growth. I know that sounds pretty new age for a trad Catholic, but really, I feel like we will all have our struggles with church teachings.

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Second, if you are one of those "mutinous" Catholics, where do you find support? I have been reading so much about Catholicism online and the vast majority seems to be from an orthodox perspective. I know this isn't the reality of the majority of Catholics--take the church's teachings on birth control and contraceptive rates by Catholics in the US, for example, even though that's not an issue of personal contention for me and I really appreciate the Church teaching on it, it's a good example. I want to know--how come all THOSE Catholics are sticking with the church? are they struggling with the same questions I am? where are their voices? I suppose one could argue that Catholics who aren't orthodox just go through the motions or weren't properly catechized, but I can't believe that is true for all of them! i want to hear from people who are struggling, who are wrestling with the teachings, who question their conscience, who do feel a deep sense of faith...
 


I feel like I should apologize to you. I wasn't trying to rag on you or make you feel like you don't belong. I think it's OK to have doubts/questions and wrestle with teachings. I just think it's dangerous to do it too publicly or in a certain way.

 

FWIW, I think a lot of the Catholics that are "non-traditional" have decided for themselves what is or isn't right, and the old fuddy-duddy Church should just get with the program or be left behind. Their thoughts and ideas are the be all and end all, not the Tradition and teaching of the Church (or the teachings of the Father or Jesus, for that matter). It's relativism at its best (or worst). My friend calls them closet Protestants.



 



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Originally Posted by la mamita View Post

lavatea: while i appreciate your concern, in my second post after posing the question about not agreeing with a Church teaching, i specified that i was not looking for the perspective of Traditional/Orthodox Catholics. you replied, again, with an offhand reference to closet Protestants. i found that very upsetting and unsupportive. that was the point where i did not feel comfortable responding on this thread. however, you did ask for clarification, so this is for that purpose.

New Beginnings vs. All-Comers: I think if we want to get into hard questions among the liberal/non-orthodox/questioning Catholics, it would be helpful to go back to a New Beginnings Catholic chat instead of All-Comers. If we're just chatting about Advent and Christmas preparations or the latest homily at Mass without getting into theological issues, then I think everyone could be welcomed and supported in a single thread. I didn't really grasp the difference beforehand, but I now see that it makes a big difference. I know I read all of the Traditional Catholic threads because I learn a lot from some of the articles or questions posed there even if I don't agree with the views stated always, but I respectfully do not post there. I also think that Religious Studies is a great resource (I have spent so much time reading past threads) if we want to get into debate or the nitty gritty of specific doctrines.


To your first point about me upsetting you, I quoted the relevant material above. (Sorry to make this all about me defending myself, but I really don't like being misunderstood and then attacked under the guise of saying I attacked first.) The bolded and italicized sentence I understood was a question to non-orthodox Catholics, and I did not respond. I responded to the bolded part several lines past that. I didn't understand that you meant for the whole post to be directed at just non-orthodox Catholics, and I'm sorry that I responded since you obviously didn't want my opinion. And, again on my thoughts on dissident Catholics, I said a lot not all or even most.

 

To respond to your point on All-Comers vs. New Beginnings, I suppose maybe there was supposed to be a difference here, but it looks as if this is really a liberal Catholic thread. I've never hung out in a liberal Catholic thread before (and I promise I never will again b/c this thread alone is making my blood pressure sky-rocket). I'm sorry this whole thing has devolved. I read blogs and such and I knew there was a great divide in the Church, but I never realized its full extent until now. I'm saddened honestly.

 

I'm off to pray about all of this and for all of us. I'm sorry I ever responded and apologize again for any hurt feelings that were caused. It was never my intention to hi-jack this thread or cause tension. Peace be with you.


Amanda praying.gif (31), RN, BSN
Catholic wife to guitar.gif (DH 28); mommy to blahblah.gif (DD 9), jog.gif (DS 6), angel2.gif (DS 11/09), angel1.gif (3/10), angel1.gif (6/10), our rainbow1284.gif (DS 1), and a surprise baby.gif (DD)

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