Bothered by pro-choice comm.s? - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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Old 06-08-2002, 03:17 AM
 
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Another commercial hater here!

We also avoid them by not having cable and sticking mainly to videos and the occasional PBS since that's all we get.

Isn't it nice that so many of us have common ground even though we disagree on other issues? I love that.
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Old 06-08-2002, 03:38 AM
 
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Hate commercials...love PBS

Can't get PBS w/o cable...hate cable b/c of commercials

Have cable...still hate commercials

watch mostly videos and PBS ('cept I can't stay away from 'Will&Grace': )
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Old 06-08-2002, 04:15 AM
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Chaka I don't do Will and Grace but would gladly sit through a thousand commercials to watch CSI. Oh man. Whats his name... woo hoo what a honey! It is the only thing I watch on TV besides the news in the AM.
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Old 06-08-2002, 10:40 AM
 
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Thanks NM, I went to bed thinking that I had overreacted to your reaction!!!

I know everyone feels passionate about this topic..We are actually all doing remakably well here.....I have a good friend who went on retreat with a group of pro-choice and anti-abortion people to discuss this issue. What they found out is that there really is a lot of common ground between the two groups, it just often gets blocked out when we dig into our own trenches.....

boobybooby, I second what Pallas said....kudos of respect to you.....
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Old 06-08-2002, 05:05 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by boobybooby
I really can't label myself one or the other, and I try not to corrall myself or others into their descriptive categories. . I know abortion is wrong for me. For me it violates what I believe in as a Christian.

But... I know that God *only*, understands a woman and her circumstances and I do not think that if it is wrong for me, as a Christian, that it is wrong for people who make that choice to the best of their ability, given the many dire situations women are sometimes in when pregnant. Selfish reasons is where I draw the line really.

You won't see me with a picket sign telling women what to do, and you won't see me trying to publicly save the millions of babies aborted every year, it's really not my place to push my opinion on others. (I'll quietly pray for God to give strength, patience and support to mothers-to-be who do *want* their babies... but just don't know it yet). Advertising is however, all about having an agenda and getting someone to go with your ideas.
I just want to say thanks to Pallas, Mamapie and Deidre for giving me respect. That was very kind of you all to say that. I also want to say that I may have been somewhat misleading you with what I said, or how I said it. ...maybe not, I hope not.

I know that as a Christian, abortion is wrong and if any woman came to me one on one for advice I would never suggest abortion or support it, but I still think the important thing is understanding her reasons for getting or wanting an abortion. And that I would do... understand her. I am not in a position to be admonishing to any unbeliever of Christ or explaining accountability for making choices that I think are against God, and therefore my answer only lies in understanding and loving her even if she gets an abortion against my hopes or gentle advice. I hope this doesn't change what you all think, I just wanted to clarify what I said because I really feel bad if I came off as sounding middle ground or luke warm.

I still think the commercials are bad, I think the issue is way too private for commercialism. I just wish there were more nuetral counseling going on and individual help for every woman who finds herself in the decision making process of abortion. I would also hope that any Christian woman who finds herself in this situation would seek Christian counsel and find there loving brothers and sisters that would gently encourage her to keep her baby. I sure wish I had been a Christian when I was younger, with family and friends of support, that I knew would not judge me but love and help me.
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Old 06-08-2002, 05:12 PM
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There is nothing wrong with being pro-life, booby. Deep down I am too. It is really a tough issue for me. I would rather women look deep inside and see if there is a way they can care for their baby, if they can find ANY support, and if they would first consider adoption. I have had abortion. It is soul wrenching.

I am against people wanting to take the choice away though and at the same time being anti-welfare. If we want the babies of the world to thrive we have to pay the price sometimes. Whether we do so willingly or not, we do so in the long run.

Totally off topic and I need to stop, too emotional for me.

I am pro choice. I have to be and I hate that.
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Old 06-08-2002, 05:46 PM
 
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I have a great deal of respect for everyone that has participated in this discussion. I think we should all be proud of ourselves for having such peaceful things to say, even when we are different in our lives. I hope the Mothering DB staff is proud of us too.
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Old 06-08-2002, 07:14 PM
 
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Mamapie, I loved your honesty in the last post. I agree with you here:
"I am against people wanting to take the choice away though and at the same time being anti-welfare."

My dream is to see the day when abortion is made illegal except to save a woman's life, but... maternity benefits are a part of every woman's health care plan (and every woman has a health care plan); every campus has a parents' co-op so students can be parents and still stay in school; any decent non-criminal adult who wants to adopt is "allowed" to and does not have to pay out the wazoo to do so; neighbors and families take responsibility for other mothers and children; and women have enough self-confidence and self-worth to save sex for the men who will truly love them and stick with them if they get pregnant.

I will be honest, too. I am pro-life, but very uncomfortable with some prominent conservatives' pro-life but not pro-woman stance. Some people just don't understand how tough it can be to have a crisis pregnancy or to raise children alone or in any number of common circumstances. If Roe v. Wade is reversed, which I hope it will be, I pray it will be accompanied by massive legislation to make mothering something ANY WOMAN can do well, with all the support she needs.
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Old 06-08-2002, 10:58 PM
 
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[
"I will be honest, too. I am pro-life, but very uncomfortable with some prominent conservatives' pro-life but not pro-woman stance. Some people just don't understand how tough it can be to have a crisis pregnancy or to raise children alone or in any number of common circumstances. "

These are exactly my feelings. The issue is made to be so black and white when it isn't black and white at all. Whenever dh and I discuss this he tries to tell me about how tough it is for some women to raise a child alone and how it's just easier for others. I would really like to know how he or any of these other men know. I think I said before that I hate the fact that these men make the decisions and laws. It shouldn't be up to them at all. Plus, they "blame" the women and it's all but impossible to track down a guy for child support. I got not one penny from my son's bio dad and it was a bunch of men that made that decision. They would kind of smirk each time I would try to make a case against him and one even called him a "poor guy". That's a shame.T

T T T T T T T T Sorry, I know that was off topic!

Amy - Blessed wife to Jesse (the best dad in the world), mother of 10 on earth plus 8 in heaven.   PROUD to be a Catholic! : winner.jpg familybed2.gifhomeschool.gif

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Old 06-08-2002, 11:11 PM
 
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excellent post pie!!

Those are my feelings as well.

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Old 06-09-2002, 12:03 AM
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Thank you Peggy. We seem to be thinking with the same head lately!
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Old 06-09-2002, 04:12 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by ekblad6
[B]No, I don't think they should have these commercials on TV. I don't think that impressionable kids should even know that there is a "way out".B]
I am a librarian. I am pro-choice. And I cannot agree that kids should not know their options - even if we disagree with them.

God has given us free will (the difference between us and the angels) and to take away choice is to take away the very stuff that makes us human.

I lost a baby to SIDS. I know the horror of losing a baby. I just happen to feel that a baby loved and hoped for, a baby named is a VERY different loss than losing one to an abortion.

I had a miscarriage and was sad to lose the baby but also relieved because I was young and unmarried at the time. I did not have to make the decision of whether or not to carry the baby as God made it for me. The experience left me with empathy for other women whose choice may have been very hard (either way).

When carrying my second child (third pregancy) I was acutely aware of how perilous pregnancy could be. . .I had heard so many sad stories through the support group I had attended. . . I had a very healthy pregnancy but my fear of miscarriage, premature birth, stillbirth were all big. This stuff about murdering a baby goes too far I think because until the baby is born and indeed until the baby makes its first birthday - life can be uncertain. And it is this uncertainty that makes me unable to equate abortion with murder.

"Judge not, lest ye be judged."
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Old 06-09-2002, 04:20 AM
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thank you tessa, for your eloquence.
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Old 06-09-2002, 04:21 AM
 
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I have reread this thread and on the topic of men and abortion I have one sentence that I would like everyone to meditate on:

"One penis, no vote" (don't know who said it first)
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Old 06-09-2002, 01:43 PM
 
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Since this is Spirituality, may I comment on my persective concerning free will and Jesus' command to Judge Not?
I believe that free will means that God does not manipulate us with a giant remote control. We do as we will. In no way does this mean that every action should be legal. When we as a society decide that a certain action is wrong (i.e. rape, stealing, etc.), some still exercise their free will, but in an attempt to curb the behavior we impose laws that make it more difficult and less rewarding. This is not equivalent to wresting God-given free will away from humans. Those who feel abortion is wrong should not let this line of reasoning prevent them from voting their conscience.

I know a lot of pro-choicers think that we pro-lifers are trying to judge others. Most of us know it's not our place to damn anyone to Hell or think more highly of ourselves than others. This does not mean that we don't have the right to make any moral judgements on actions. We should not be intimidated by fear of being labeled judgemental out of voicing our convictions.

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Old 06-09-2002, 01:47 PM
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pickle, we have managed not to turn this into a debate so far. You have made your stance clear. She made hers. Can we just allow each other to speak? If I can see where booby is coming from then you can at least allow others to speak their piece...

peace,

Pie
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Old 06-09-2002, 03:52 PM
 
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Mamapie, I do not believe I was being disrespectful, attacking anyone personally, or trying to silence anyone. Just taking issue with some statements.
Maybe you could help me out with the rules for this thread
Are we not supposed to quote others for the sake of expressing disagreement?
How 'bout if I go up and edit all references to other posts?
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Old 06-09-2002, 03:59 PM
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I think that this is such a hard issue, and I think that we should try and simply allow each other to speak. If you want more details PM me. There are no real rules, but I can tell you that this thread is being closely watched by the admin (I am guessing that actually) and that all future discussion of this topic hinges on how peacefully we can discuss it.
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Old 06-09-2002, 04:20 PM
 
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Thanks for keeping me in line mp

Now back to the original topic ...

THe NARAL ads are definitely more slick and sophisticated than the Shake the Nation ones. rolleyes:

Since this is Spirituality, here's some encouragement for Christians...If you are troubled in your spirit by the commercials and the state of things in general, meditate on Proverbs 16:4. "The Lord works out everything for his own ends..." This verse reminds me that he is sovereign and will redeem even this situation. I think when we see Jesus his crown will be dazzling with all the precious jewels, the innocent little ones that went to Heaven prematurely.
The second half of the verse, which I won't quote, is also a reminder that we do not have to get angry or wonder where is the justice in the world.
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Old 06-09-2002, 04:25 PM
 
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Actually the most offensive commercial I have ever seen was one of the Trojan man ones on MTV because the young woman was portrayed as needed to be so grateful to her man for 'protecting' her. Some of these make young women look like horny idiots.
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Old 06-09-2002, 07:17 PM
 
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tessamami said
Quote:
God has given us free will (the differnce between us and the angels)...
Just an fftopic note -- the angles have free will too....that's where Satan came from (see Revelation)

Also -- in the case of "Judge not least ye be judged"...the point is not to judge -- if that were the case it would be wrong for us to have courts. The warning is to not judge someone by a standard that is different from the one you wish to be judged by. But there is a difference is holding each other accountable or bringing to a brother or sister's attention thier sin (which is not judgement) it is calling them to repentence. Peter did this, Paul did this, John the Baptist did this and even Jesus pointed to sin and named it. We are called to speak the truth in "love" but we are called to speak the truth.

Sorry about going off topic --

Super Pickle
thanks for the great Proverb reminder
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Old 06-09-2002, 07:25 PM
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We are called to speak the truth in love but we are called to speak the truth. I like that. I am not Christian but am a lover of Christ and I like that. Hmmm well.

Who is to say what is the truth and what is not, when it comes to matters that are not black and white? When it comes to matters like this one? How do we KNOW that our truth is true for all?

If we are going to judge we best be darn sure that we are totally right. And how sure can we be? Withholding judgement of others as much as possible seems a noble pursuit to me.
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Old 06-10-2002, 10:03 AM
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I think something we could all agree with is that we need to have more opportunity, education, and real choices (especially for the poorer people)

We need to start providing our children with good parents(!!) so they have a good start in life.

We need to have good schools and we need to thoroughly educate children.

When girls are secure, know how their bodies work, and have real opportunities to continue in their education and have their innate talents manifested in rewarding careers there will be less teenaged sex, more girls in college, and fewer abortions and children in poverty.

I think all sides, both prolife and prochoice can agree with that.

I am not unaware of the concerns of "the other side" I think most of your concerns are valid.

I am not a typical conservative prolifer who doesn't care about these issues. I think they need to be addressed or the babies who are now being aborted will end up being born in toilets instead.

Debra Baker (sorry I'm late into this conversation I had a very busy weekend)
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Old 06-10-2002, 01:56 PM
 
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DebraBaker!
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Old 06-10-2002, 10:02 PM
 
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I think these ads are excellent--very good in getting the message out. I'm not in the least bit offended by them. The current generation of young women need to be reminded of what the alternative would be if the anti-choice lobby is successful in chipping away at abortion rights.

If you watch ads sponsored by the anti-choice folks, you'll notice that in recent years, they've been distancing themselves in a big way from advocating adoption as an alternative for an unwanted pregnancy. They now focus their media campaigns on convincing poor, young women that they can manage to parent their children. Of course, the irony is that many of the same folks behind this are also doing their best to eliminate government assistance for poor women and children.
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Old 06-10-2002, 10:32 PM
 
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I think we should be real and realize that it's highly unlikely that abortion will be illegal in our lifetimes. I don't really think we need to commercialize either "choice". Like I said before, commercials are worth nothing IMO.

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Old 06-10-2002, 11:25 PM
 
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I respectfully disagree. Abortion rights have been greatly curtailed, and given the current political control of the house, the White House and the SC, I think it's a very real possibility that abortion will become unavailable to an increasing number of women. This kind of ad campaign is useful information for raising consciousness levels in a naive generation.
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Old 06-10-2002, 11:57 PM
 
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*

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Old 06-11-2002, 03:25 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nursing Mother


When you believe in God and that God creates and embodies every living human being it makes the idea of abortion nauseating and repulsive. However I do realize not everyone believes in God and does not see embryo's, fetuses, or babies as sacred human's with souls, so it makes abortion very acceptable to them or at least tolerable.


Yes, that's why spirituality is an appropriate forum for this thread. The notion that a soul enters the body at conception is a particular religeous teaching that is proven by faith not by science.

You may recall that Senator Orrin Hatch just came out in favor of stem cell research because his LDS religion teaches that souls enter the body sometime after conception.

Some religions teach that "quickening" when the fetus starts to move indicates ensoulment.

To those of us with different convictions about when a body has a soul, insistance that "life begins at conception" feels more like an attempt to imppose a particular religious dogma on society than an honest attempt to "protect" women or babies.


Quote:
How could I ever stay quiet about an issue I feel so strongly about But whatever I say I pray it is in love and understanding and never in hate of judgement. Its just that any killing of innocent life isWRONG in my opinion. I'm sure most of you can understand that. [/B]
The medical profession has been working very hard to convince us that *every* pregnancy and childbirth is a medical emergency and that *every* child endangers its mother's life. Unfortunately, there is some truth behind that. Regardless of medical progress, every mother does risk her life and body for her child and at any point, a pregnancy can turn into a medical emergency with hard choices to make.

What I especially dislike about the term "pro-life" is that it values the potential life of the fetus more than the existing life of the mother. It assigns a moral absolute to what is actually a sliding scale of moral judgements.

When you ask "who will take care of the babies", my answer is, their mothers will take care of them according to their best judgement.

--AmyB
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Old 06-11-2002, 08:10 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nursing Mother


People have a problem with that because abortion stops a beating heart and kills a life no matter what stage its in. It is a death of a life or potential life. That is why pro-lifers are so passionate about trying to keep babies alive.

When you believe in God and that God creates and embodies every living human being it makes the idea of abortion nauseating and repulsive. However I do realize not everyone believes in God and does not see embryo's, fetuses, or babies as sacred human's with souls, so it makes abortion very acceptable to them or at least tolerable.

As pro-lifers (anti-abortionist)we understand that, but we must speak out as activists(peacefully) and share our consciences to others the same as PETA or other activists step out and share their consciences. Pro-lifers are no different, just with another cause that indwells them to the deepest level. (A cause I feel is the most ultimate as it is about the very essence of life and our very existance)

How could I ever stay quiet about an issue I feel so strongly about But whatever I say I pray it is in love and understanding and never in hate of judgement. Its just that any killing of innocent life isWRONG in my opinion. I'm sure most of you can understand that.
Did you say that just to be mean? I'm just wondering how words like "repulsive", "nauseating" and "killing an innocent life" effect the women on this thread that have had abortions. Does a women that has had an abortion feel like you have said these things with love and understanding?
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