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#361 of 1377 Old 01-17-2005, 09:19 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by DaryLLL
Really? Have you read Plato's Republic? "Through a glass darkly" is his imagery.
Yes!

Paul was well versed in Philosophy. I find that I like the similarities b/n him and Plato to some degree and where they separate in another. He was an exceptionally well educated man for his day.

I LOVE Plato, DaryLLL and when I read Romans, I think of the Phaedrus.

Have you ever reaed the Laws?

Paul is a man, with education and a history who has been changed by a personal meeting and relationship with Christ. I like that HE shows up in his writings. His dislike of Christians shows up at times. He was bound to Christ and Christ softened his hatred of others but not sin persay.

Okay, my kids are fighting.

HEY DOULA SARAH- WELCOME. Its an awesome relationship and a strange long WONDERFUL trip.
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#362 of 1377 Old 01-17-2005, 09:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by DaryLLL
Really? Have you read Plato's Republic? "Through a glass darkly" is his imagery.
No, I haven't read Republic - I've actually never been a fan of Plato's nor Greek philosophy (or classic literature for that matter : ). So, Plato uses the imagery of "through a glass, darkly" or better translated, "through a mirror, though dimly or obscurly"? And is that what leads you to believe Paul was Hellenistic? I guess I just don't see that by three words ... do you have more arguments as to why you think Paul was a Hellenistic philosopher? Just curious.

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#363 of 1377 Old 01-17-2005, 09:28 PM
 
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Well, I just read the last page so I'm lost as usual but welcome, and congratulations Sarah! I have a friend that's wiccan. We've had many interesting discussions over the years!

Well friends, we are losing our house. We are putting it on the market to get out of debt. We've just been getting in deeper and deeper since I quit work to be a sahm in Oct. Anyway, dh and I are in serious counseling, but it looks as though we may go our separate ways for awhile. Not divorce, but separation. I covet your prayers! Satan has really driven a wedge between us with the money issues plus our high needs baby boy! Dh is feeling like God is picking on him.

Anyway, sorry to make this about me. Carry on...
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#364 of 1377 Old 01-17-2005, 09:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by RacheePoo
Well, I just read the last page so I'm lost as usual but welcome, and congratulations Sarah! I have a friend that's wiccan. We've had many interesting discussions over the years!

Well friends, we are losing our house. We are putting it on the market to get out of debt. We've just been getting in deeper and deeper since I quit work to be a sahm in Oct. Anyway, dh and I are in serious counseling, but it looks as though we may go our separate ways for awhile. Not divorce, but separation. I covet your prayers! Satan has really driven a wedge between us with the money issues plus our high needs baby boy! Dh is feeling like God is picking on him.

Anyway, sorry to make this about me. Carry on...
: You are in my thoughts and prayers. I hope things work out for the best.
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#365 of 1377 Old 01-17-2005, 10:03 PM
 
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Hey Rachel... I was thinking of you the other day and wondering how you're doing. and :
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#366 of 1377 Old 01-17-2005, 10:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MyLittleWonders
No, I haven't read Republic - I've actually never been a fan of Plato's nor Greek philosophy (or classic literature for that matter : ). So, Plato uses the imagery of "through a glass, darkly" or better translated, "through a mirror, though dimly or obscurly"? And is that what leads you to believe Paul was Hellenistic? I guess I just don't see that by three words ... do you have more arguments as to why you think Paul was a Hellenistic philosopher? Just curious.
Christianity as a whole, is influenced by the Greek mystery religions. It does not flow out of Judaism alone.

I recommend you read Hyam Maccoby's book The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Chritsianity. Paul's question and answer format is Socratic. If you are unfamiliar with The Republic, the discussion will be fruitless. Without writing a thesis, Plato posits that our human existence is like sitting in a cave staring at the back wall, where reflections of light glimmer. We never turn around and go out of the cave to where real life is going on.

review of Maccoby's book:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...books&n=507846

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Maccoby's book, written for the intelligent general reader, presents in clear and persuasive but controversial form his thesis that Paul synthesized Judaism, Gnosticism, and mystery religion to create Christianity as a cosmic savior religion. According to Maccoby, Paul's Pharisaism was his own invention, though actually he was probably associated with the Sadducees. Maccoby attributes the origins of Christian anti-Semitism to Paul and claims that Paul's view of women, though inconsistent, reflects his Gnosticism in its antifeminist aspects. A Talmudic scholar, Maccoby believes that Paul's wide variance from the Jerusalem Church (Nazarenes, under James and Peter) led to the separation of Christianity from Judaism.
Comment on Plato's Republic [with my comments and corrections]:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...041054-1017437

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the work is conducted by a method of dialogue...the 'maieutic ' method in which the philosopher Socrates [is] the main character of the dialogues. Plato's great teacher acts as a 'midwife' bringing out the 'inherent truths' in the mind of man through talking to others. It is all there in us pre-existent, according to this view, and the Truth simply needs to be brought out.

This Truth however has a baffling meaning in the central myth of the Republic. This is the myth of the cave. The philosopher descends into the cave and seeks in isolation to know the Ultimate Truth. But what he sees are the shadows of the shadows, the fleeting images of [the] sense[s], which can hint at but not really convey ultimately the final Truth. And the final Truth in Plato's system and world is the Impersonal Abstract Idea which in turn is constructed of all other Ideas [the Logos?]. It is as if we arrive finally at One, but this one is not the personal G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob but truly a god of the philosophers [lovers of wisdom] somehow beyond and containing us all. [Christ in you?]
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#367 of 1377 Old 01-17-2005, 11:22 PM
 
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Christianity as a whole, is influenced by the Greek mystery religions. It does not flow out of Judaism alone.
This I agree with, though I do not believe God nor Christ nor Pul even intended it that way. But, I hold that the entire first church was simply a sect or offshoot of Judaism. It wasn't until post 130CE that the "Christian" church began to separate itself from its Jewishroots. Then came Constatine in the early 300'sCE and all heck broke loose. The church, was never supposed to be the way it is today (in my opinion). (more but my kids are calling ...)

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#368 of 1377 Old 01-18-2005, 03:14 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by RacheePoo
Well, I just read the last page so I'm lost as usual but welcome, and congratulations Sarah! I have a friend that's wiccan. We've had many interesting discussions over the years!

Well friends, we are losing our house. We are putting it on the market to get out of debt. We've just been getting in deeper and deeper since I quit work to be a sahm in Oct. Anyway, dh and I are in serious counseling, but it looks as though we may go our separate ways for awhile. Not divorce, but separation. I covet your prayers! Satan has really driven a wedge between us with the money issues plus our high needs baby boy! Dh is feeling like God is picking on him.

Anyway, sorry to make this about me. Carry on...
Oh RacheePoo--I am glad you posted. I've been thinking a lot about you.
How can we help? How can we pray for you other than what you wrote? What are your needs right now?
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#369 of 1377 Old 01-18-2005, 05:02 PM
 
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Christian here as well
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#370 of 1377 Old 01-18-2005, 05:04 PM
 
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Welcome to the family, Sarah!!! Just hearing (umm, reading!) your post has given me such encouragement!! Blessings on your journey. I'd love to hear more of your story....
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#371 of 1377 Old 01-18-2005, 05:12 PM
 
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Oh, and I also wanted to add that I cannot believe the things I'm reading about others' beliefs about Paul. Unbelievable. Gay? Hardly!! And even that someone would think he never *really* converted??? Where would that even come from? I don't get it. Paul was an amazing man, who God chose to write some amazing, foundational Scricuture through. I recently heard a wonderful sermon about Paul and his ministry and the passage of "looking through a glass dimmly" (Is that the line? YKWIM!) Anyway, it was really inspiring and thought-provoking.

Just had to vent and stick up for PAUL!!!

Much Love!

Emily
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#372 of 1377 Old 01-18-2005, 05:15 PM
 
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Oh, and I also wanted to add that I cannot believe the things I'm reading about others' beliefs about Paul. Unbelievable. Gay? Hardly!!

Just had to vent and stick up for PAUL!!!
There is nothing wrong with being gay, surely? It seems he refrained from actually doing anything about it anyway. Except castigate himself.

I guess I will have to crack the books and start a thread on Rel Studies...

Oh, thank goodness, I found an excerpt from the book (Rescuing the Bible) online.
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#373 of 1377 Old 01-18-2005, 05:19 PM
 
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#374 of 1377 Old 01-18-2005, 05:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by EmmaJean
Oh, and I also wanted to add that I cannot believe the things I'm reading about others' beliefs about Paul. Unbelievable. Gay? Hardly!! And even that someone would think he never *really* converted??? Where would that even come from? I don't get it. Paul was an amazing man, who God chose to write some amazing, foundational Scricuture through. I recently heard a wonderful sermon about Paul and his ministry and the passage of "looking through a glass dimmly" (Is that the line? YKWIM!) Anyway, it was really inspiring and thought-provoking.

Just had to vent and stick up for PAUL!!!

Much Love!

Emily
My friend who believes that Paul never really converted, believes that Paul so disliked the early Christians that he infiltrated and subverted them from the inside. I don't necessarily agree with it but it was an interesting conversation. I doesn't really matter to me whether he was gay or not.
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#375 of 1377 Old 01-18-2005, 05:57 PM
 
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So if you believe being gay is okay, I assume it's okay to have extramarital (or unmarried) sexual affairs as well? Do you all follow the ten commandments? Or only the two commandments Jesus spoke? I don't understand.
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#376 of 1377 Old 01-18-2005, 09:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Hey DaryLLL, thanks for taking that to Religious Studies.

You know the book of Ephesians was written to people very much like Americans, i think. Paul wrote it from jail and I find it to be very encouraging to me. I LOVE how Paul knew them well and knew their strengths and weaknesses. I LOVE how he encouraged them and admonished them in love.

Paul suffered tremendously so that WE could have encouragement in Christ.

Anyway, just wanted to share that.
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#377 of 1377 Old 01-18-2005, 11:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by busybusymomma
So if you believe being gay is okay, I assume it's okay to have extramarital (or unmarried) sexual affairs as well? Do you all follow the ten commandments? Or only the two commandments Jesus spoke? I don't understand.
I'm not going to touch it other than to say I think you've made a leap from point A to point B.

Thanks for the other thread, DaryLLL. Looking forward to getting my Spong books and reading.
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#378 of 1377 Old 01-19-2005, 12:34 AM
 
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I guess this theology stuff is above my head. I didn't bring it up.

See ya.
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#379 of 1377 Old 01-19-2005, 12:57 AM
 
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So if you believe being gay is okay, I assume it's okay to have extramarital (or unmarried) sexual affairs as well? Do you all follow the ten commandments? Or only the two commandments Jesus spoke? I don't understand.
Liberal Christians generally believe that its okay; conservatives generally believe that it is not. There are reasons on both sides, but it would be in violation of the user agreement here at MDC to discuss it because MDC has stated that they wish to be a safe haven for all people no matter what their sexual orientation and so they will not host discussion of it.

And this thread has a pretty wide open title welcoming all Christians/Christ followers/seekers which means there are going to be some very divergent views on a lot of issues. I think its great when we can all try to get along, focus on what we have in common, and agree to disagree on the rest.
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#380 of 1377 Old 01-19-2005, 01:15 AM
 
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I guess I didn't realize that it's okay to discuss homosexuality in only certain contexts but not others. I'm sorry if I offended, but there is scripture that mentions it and I assumed that we would be discussing the Bible at some point in this thread. I'm really confused about the whole Spirituality forum and don't have the time or inclination to figure it out I guess.

Since I don't have time to read Plato, I'll stick to my other threads.
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#381 of 1377 Old 01-19-2005, 03:08 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Oh busybusymomma please don't go. I'd hate to see you run off b/c of lil' ol' plato. Seriously, this thread IS a support thread for believers, all believers, and it takes twists and turns.

I am about as conservative theologically, but not quite politically, as one can be without diving into legalism or fundamentalism. I feel free to engage in diverse and vigorous discussions with people of all leanings as long as I, personally, do not break the law of love. I would be sad to see anyone leave b.c they feel unwelcome or ill-read. So, please reconsider staying. You have much to offer us.
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#382 of 1377 Old 01-19-2005, 03:08 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Oh busybusymomma please don't go. I'd hate to see you run off b/c of lil' ol' plato. Seriously, this thread IS a support thread for believers, all believers, and it takes twists and turns.

I am about as conservative theologically, but not quite politically, as one can be without diving into legalism or fundamentalism. I feel free to engage in diverse and vigorous discussions with people of all leanings as long as I, personally, do not break the law of love. I would be sad to see anyone leave b.c they feel unwelcome or ill-read. So, please reconsider staying. You have much to offer us.
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#383 of 1377 Old 01-19-2005, 10:07 AM
 
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Originally Posted by indie
Liberal Christians generally believe that its okay; conservatives generally believe that it is not. There are reasons on both sides, but it would be in violation of the user agreement here at MDC to discuss it because MDC has stated that they wish to be a safe haven for all people no matter what their sexual orientation and so they will not host discussion of it.

And this thread has a pretty wide open title welcoming all Christians/Christ followers/seekers which means there are going to be some very divergent views on a lot of issues. I think its great when we can all try to get along, focus on what we have in common, and agree to disagree on the rest.

What Indie said. I am a liberal Christian so my viewpoint is different than several others on this thread. I like how we have been able to discuss stuff on this thread. I like how people are saying 'I believe such and such' without saying 'You are wrong'. I think if we keep with I statements the discussion can continue in a friendly manner. We are never going to agree on everything even if we all were conservatives. So yes, I really don't care if Paul was gay or not.
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#384 of 1377 Old 01-19-2005, 11:27 AM
 
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"Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle." -Plato
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#385 of 1377 Old 01-19-2005, 03:06 PM
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Rhonwyn, what does it mean to be a liberal christian? I understand what it means to be a liberal when it comes to politics but I'm not familiar with this term used this way.
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#386 of 1377 Old 01-19-2005, 03:31 PM
 
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I'm not Rhonwyn, but this is a pretty thorough definition:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_divi2.htm

Liberal wing: (e.g. United Church of Christ). They see major parts of the Bible as reflecting God's will. But they generally reject other portions of the Bible as being no longer valid:

They see such stories as the Genesis creation sequence, the virgin conception of Jesus, and world-wide Noahic flood, etc. as religious myths or folklore: stories of immense spiritual power, but unrelated to actual historical events

They see that many parts of the Bible must interpreted as evil and as contradicting the will of God (e.g. biblical passages which regulate slavery, advocate genocide, assign an inferior role to women, promote religious intolerance, condemn homosexuality, etc.)

They regard Hell in symbolic terms, not as a place of eternal torment.

They regard the Bible as errant, having been written by individuals without the direct inspiration of God, whose motivation was to promote their own theological and spiritual beliefs.

They generally believe in the theory of evolution (either theistic evolution or naturalistic evolution).

They are keen to learn from theological studies into the historical Jesus in order to determine what his precise teachings were.

On social matters, they rely heavily on the findings of social and natural sciences. Most:

Are political liberals, independents, or moderates.

Give a high priority to combating racism, sexism, poverty, and homophobia.

Are supportive of abortion access and educational programs to prevent unwanted pregnancies.

Believe that sexual orientation is largely genetically pre-determined, is not chosen, is fixed, natural, normal for a minority of humans, and (like heterosexuality) is morally neutral.

Many liberal denominations will conduct union services for gays and lesbians and will ordain homosexuals who are celibate or in committed relationships. Some support same-sex marriage for loving, committed same-sex couples.
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#387 of 1377 Old 01-19-2005, 03:41 PM
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So you're saying liberal christians don't believe what is written in the BIble?
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#388 of 1377 Old 01-19-2005, 03:55 PM
 
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SQ, I didn't say it. www.religioustolerance.org did.

Believe in the Bible means what? I would say everyone needs to interpret the theosophizing of bronze and iron age shepherds through the prism of their own life experiences. Even you fundies.
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#389 of 1377 Old 01-19-2005, 05:35 PM
 
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So you're saying liberal christians don't believe what is written in the BIble?
No, I believe what is written in the Bible I just don't believe it the same way you do.

Here is a very easy example: Noah's flood was 40 days and nights.

I personally do not believe that the flood actually lasted exactly 40 days and nights. There are a couple of ways to look at it: 1) What is a day to God? Is it the same length of time? or 2) 40 days and 40 nights is like Once Upon a Time, it is a way to convey a very long time when you don't know the exact amount of time.

That doesn't mean that I think anyone is wrong for believing it was exactly 40 days and 40 nights. I just don't agee with them.
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#390 of 1377 Old 01-19-2005, 10:19 PM
 
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Oh busybusymomma please don't go. I'd hate to see you run off b/c of lil' ol' plato. Seriously, this thread IS a support thread for believers, all believers, and it takes twists and turns.

I am about as conservative theologically, but not quite politically, as one can be without diving into legalism or fundamentalism. I feel free to engage in diverse and vigorous discussions with people of all leanings as long as I, personally, do not break the law of love. I would be sad to see anyone leave b.c they feel unwelcome or ill-read. So, please reconsider staying. You have much to offer us.
Yes, what HMC said. I'm sorry if I made you angry; I think Indie put it better than I did, or could. I haven't read Plato either!
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