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#31 of 45 Old 05-23-2003, 02:21 PM
 
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kama'aina mama~

I don't want to offend anyone, just give my personal opinion.

About that verse...
I Corinthians 7:5
Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.

So say I know I ovulate around the 15th every month, so then for that week every month my dh and I suddenly are supposed to feel the desire to fast and have much more prayer and not to have sex? To me, that is like if everytime the baby needs changing, I 'suddenly' remember something very very important I should be doing right now three rooms away, so I cannot possibly change the baby (and dh will just have to do it). Do you see what I mean? It is dishonest, or at least very sneaky. And that is not how I want to serve God- doing as little as I can get away with. I want to the very best I can for him.

Also, he made me (all women) to feel most like having sex *during* ovualtion. So I really doubt most women would choose that time to abstain. Naturally, it woudl be quite the opposite!

I think God made women this way- capable to have 7 or 8 babies (with breastfeeding as child spacing)- for a resaon. Children are a blessing, we should WANT blessings. We are commanded to be fruitful and multiply. I think it is healthier for women, too. In the OT, menstration is called the "sickness." At first, this seems very un-PC, but it is right none the less. The more you have the 'sickness' (which is certainly what it feels like to me!), the more likely you are to get all types of female cancers.

Just to throw this in here for any ZPGers, I have looked into this and read about it and even discussed with a few college professors about how over-population is unfounded. I do not want to debate about it, but I am satisfied. And even if it were true, I still choose to trust God with everything.

There are beautiful verses about a wife being like an olive branch with her many children around her. I think that is beautiful and what God meant for us.

I also see it as every child is an eternal soul. They are the only things I can take to heaven with me someday, and the most important things I can spend my time with on earth. Why would I not want more?

This is a very strong belief for me. Even in the origionial laungage of the Bible, the word for 'semen' and 'child' is the same. So we see it as if we waste one, we are wasting the other.

The Bible says that God has our whole life planned before we are even in our mother's womb. I know he has my future children's lives planned out right now, and who am I to tell God he can't work through me?

I know not everyone agrees with this, but it is very important to me. Also, not everyone who does this has a lot of children. My close friend has been QF her whole life and thinks she may not be having any more now, and she only has three.
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#32 of 45 Old 05-23-2003, 02:40 PM
 
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The problem, PerfectLove, with your reasoning, is that, while it's true of course (and this was so helpful to me to learn--it helped me understand that what i mistook for low sex drive was actually normal and healthy) that ovulation is the time that you have the most libido, what about the other 2 weeks in the month when you are not ovulating or menstruating? Are we to abstain from sex in the times when we're _not_ fertile? It seems like the other side of the coin.

I think God gave us a predictable cycle so that we could make decisions based on wisdom, and not merely biological impulses. In addition to the way we are so wonderfully made, he gave us the capacity for reason.

PLEASE don't think i mean this as an indictment against QF mamas at ALL! i'm jsut pointing something out. I don't mean any insult...in fact if you read my first post in this thread you'll see that i want a big family and I DO consider children a blessing. I don't think that overpopulation is a valid concern, nor do i think that having as many children as you want is irresponsible in any way. I also believe God provides according to our needs. So there's my disclaimer.

Vesper (Alban's mama):bf wife to ben
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#33 of 45 Old 05-23-2003, 04:18 PM
 
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PerfectLove, I don't think your analogy of the diaper changing is a good one at all. It doesn't cover something very specific I said. A closer analogy would be if the babe needed a change and you turned to your DH and said "Hey, I really don't feel like doing this one but I will if you aren't up for it. " That is to say, keeping yourself open to doing it (concieving or changing the diaper) but communicating with your partner in this compact (G-d or your DH) that you would prefer not to.

In addition, your point that many women feel stronger desire during their fertile time. I'm not sure if men are more aroused being near a fertile woman as they are in the animal kingdom, but that may well be true also. So, doesn't that make it the perfect time to abstain from the pleasure of sex, as a sacrifice? I mean, you don't get anything out of fasting overnight when you are asleep... it's fasting when you are hungry and want food that has value.

To be honest the Pauline statements require some historical context for me to understand them better. I find my self wondering if he is refering to keeping the traditional Jewish family purity when he talks about abstinance (which is specific to the time during which you cannot concieve) or if he is refering to something else.

I'm just saying that there is a difference (to me) between being open to G-ds plan for your life, earnestly praying for that plan to be revealed to you and assuming that he has the same plan for everyone and that plan is to specifically try to have many children. Heck, Abraham who he promised decendants as countless as the stars had but two children in G-ds plan. Mary (by some accounts anyway) had but one. Was she a bad wife to Joseph and he a bad husband to her?

Let me be clear... I think it awesome that many of you believe this is G-ds plan for you but I find myself uncomfortable with interpretations of Scripture that seem to exort all women to follow this plan lest they be refusing the will of G-d.
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#34 of 45 Old 05-23-2003, 05:34 PM
 
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First off, I just want to make sure there are no hard feelings. It's totally fine to disagree.

vesper songs~ My dh and I abstain from sex when it seems right to us. We have no desire to get pregnant and we have no desire to NOT get pregnant. Being QF is trusting God with your fertility either way, being neutral, kwim? We do not take my fertility into account at all. What we do consider is just life in general- are the kids asleep, are we up for it, would we rather read together for a while or talk, etc. I'm sure sometimes we abstain when I am fertile, and sometimes when I'm not, but we would never go out of our way to 'try for' or prevent a child. It is all in God's hands.

I see what you mean about predictable cycles. I have a very good friend who used to believe the same thing. But, personaly, I just don't buy it. It doesn't say 'abstain to fast, pray, and when you know you are fertile.' I think we need to trust God with every aspect of our lives, even our wombs.

kama'aina mama~ I guess I don't completely understand what you mean about the diaper. Maybe I shouldn't have compared it to that! If one of us doesn't feel up to having sex, we won't. If in the future, if one of us ever feels like not having another child, we would talk to God about it, but I can't imagine telling him I don't want any more of his blessings, and we would not ever think we would know better than him in this area, or any other. We both want God to be in control of whole lives, fertility included. I think he is doing a great job. We have sex whenever we want with no worries, and we have a 4 year old and a 2 year old (next week!) and I am not pregnant.

I don't think it says to abstain from sex 'as a sacfice.' We are very careful about adding to or taking away from the word of God. It does say we are to get married so we can have sex so we are not tempted, etc. I do not see how it would please God for married people to purposely abstain due to the fact that she is fertile and they are both in the mood, and possibly be tempted, as a sacrifice to him.

As for fasting, yes you need to be awake. But you do not have times of the month where it is better or worse for you to fast. You can fast anytime. I think it would be silly to plan to abstain from sex when you know you are ovulating, strictly for that reason. God never told us to do that. He told us to be fruitful and multiply, he called periods a 'sickness', and semen 'children', and children 'a blessing'.

I do think God has a different plan for everyone, but he wants everyone to follow the same guidelines- don't kill, etc. And I think trusting him with your fertility is one of those guidelines.

QF is NOT about having many children. It is about leaving the number of children you have up to God. You can be QF your whole life and have one child (or no children at all) and that was God's plan for you. Or you could have two children, or five, or nine. The point is that YOU didn't make that decision for your own human reasons- you left it in God's hands entirely. Just like a friend I have who has been QF since the day she got married and is now getting older and only has three. That was 100% God's choice, not hers. That is QF.

I think Abraham did have desentants like the stars. Desecnants are also grandchildren, great grandchildren... Also, didn't Jesus have two brothes and at least two sisters? But even if Mary only had Jesus, she still could have been QF, and God only gave her one child. Of course she was not a bad wife or Joseph a bad husband! Assuming they were QF, they had no say in how many children they had. That was God's doing so there was nothing bad about it.

I know not everyone agrees with this, but I think it is God's plan for women. Why else would he have made us this way and said the things he said in the Bible? I trust God to know what is best for me in all areas of my life, expessially important areas like children. How can someone think they know better and can make better choices than God?

I think QF is misunderstood- so again, it is not doing *anything* ever to prevent or achieve pregancy. It is leaving it all up to God and taking as many children as he gives, be it zero or be in ten. (You are NOT out to have 100 kids. If you tried to have kids, you would be doing your own will and not leaving it in God's hands, just the same as if you tried NOT to have kids.)

I think there is plenty of scripture to support being QF. I have yet to see any scripture that backs anything otherwise.

edited to add a very important "not"
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#35 of 45 Old 05-23-2003, 05:35 PM
 
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#36 of 45 Old 05-23-2003, 06:06 PM
 
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I guess all I am saying is that much of Scripture is subject to interpretation and much can be lost by not looking at it in a historical context. And I think that there is a strong implication that specifically abstaining from sex is a sacrifice, as it is mentioned in the same context as fasting. I don't mean abstaining in the sense of "i don't feel like it today." I mean like "Let's agree not to engage in this for X number of days and devote that energy to praying and opening our hearts to G-ds will."
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#37 of 45 Old 05-23-2003, 06:23 PM
 
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I agree, Perfectlove...I think the point when it comes to abstaining is what is in your heart...which, btw, no matter what we admit outwardly or inwardly to ourselves, GOD knows...HE knows all...
So, when we tell our husbands, "I don't really feel up to it right now", are we actually saying, "I know I'm fertile and I'm not wanting to get pg right now."? That is avoiding a blessing and trying to take control of GOD's plan...which should always be in HIS hands, not ours.
The point, for me, of QF is exactly what PerfectLove said...Leaving it to GOD, HE knows better than anyone what we can handle, what we need, what we desire.
It's not about trying to have as many children as you can either...It's being intimate with your husband when you or he feel inclined to do so and letting God decide if you will gain another blessing.
I want HIM to be LORD of my life...when I try to do it, I make a mess of things. HE is my FATHER and will protect, guide, and love me. Isn't HE wonderful!!!
Tina
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#38 of 45 Old 05-23-2003, 06:28 PM
 
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Yes She is. And I believe She would want to hear from me, prayerfully, if I felt unready for that particular blessing so long as I was truly in accord that Her will be done.
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#39 of 45 Old 05-23-2003, 06:38 PM
 
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can i ask y'all a question?

if you are quiver full, would that mean that you would not seek fertility treatments or to adopt a child?
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#40 of 45 Old 05-23-2003, 06:55 PM
 
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I think adoption is fine if the child really needs a home. I think that falls under charity and caring for each other.

I personally would NOT choose fertility treatments. (But I can see where that could be a very hard call to make when someone really wants to have a baby of their own and can't.)



OT:
As far as God being refered to as 'he' or 'she'...
I *think* in the origionial language that there were no he/she pronouns. That they just called God either one of his names, or the gender neutral pronoun they used for everyone. If fact, one name 'El Shaddai' actually means 'breast' as in nursing. I am a little fuzzy on all of that, but I would not be suprised if God is genderless in some huge magnificant way we can't yet understand. (Not that I would have a problem with him being male, though!)
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#41 of 45 Old 05-24-2003, 01:23 AM
 
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by canadiyank
My grandma had 11 live births, over a span of 26 years. People always ask if we are Mormon or Catholic. Neither, actually, LOL! Lutheran. I was an only child, but not by choice (my mom had 5 miscarriages, one at nearly 6 mos. along!).

momschooling - scanning the posts I think I'm the only one who made mention of Catholic families in a post so I am assuming you were referring to my post when you mentioned the "we're not Catholic" thing. In *NO* way did I mean my post to be derogatory (sp?)! My apologies, since it seems to have come across that way...people just seem genuinely shocked that we're not Catholic or Mormon. I honestly don't know any large Catholic families (or even Mormon, for that matter - my family is the largest I know, LOL!) but the stereotype lives on...and honestly, in my grandma's day (her first baby was in 1919, her last - my dad - in 1944) most families were probably larger, so really, you're right, the comment people made is just silly.

I'm sorry - I meant no offense.

BTW - according to Mark 6:3 NIV, Mary did have at least 4 brothers and 2 sisters, so Mary had at least 7 children. (Referring to a prophet not being listened to in his hometown... "'Isn't this the carpenter? Isn't this Mary's son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas, and Simon? Aren't his sisters here with us?' And they took offense at him.") Also, the book of James is attributed (according to my NIV Study Bible) to James, the brother of Jesus. Just some FYI I didn't learn either of these until very recently, so hoping I don't come across as a know-it-all!

Meghan, mom to 11yo, 8yo, and 3yo 

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#42 of 45 Old 05-25-2003, 04:21 PM
 
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Elphaba,
I believe that adoption is a great thing! If I had the chance to adopt a child I would love to...Like PerfectLove said, it falls under the realm of charity and doing good unto others.
As for fertility treatments...i personally do not agree with it. I do not judge others, but to me FT would be like trying to play God. Like I mentioned before, to me it's all about leaving it in God's hands and that would be trying to take control of it for yourself...It is not natural. Again I want to say that I do not judge anyone else, this is what I believe.
I personally do not even believe in watching my cycle and purposely choosing fertile times to be intimate.

About abstinence...I had another thought and came up with what I feel is a good anology for my beliefs:
Imagine this: Your dh goes into work on Friday and his boss tells him, "Hey...if you come into work on Monday, you may get a great promotion! It is a little more responsibility, but it would mean more money and benefits for you. Now you don't have to come in, you could call off, but if you do not come in, the promotion will not be an option at this time. If you do come in, you might not get it, but there is a good chance you will" Now what would you want your husband to do? A promotion...what a BLESSING! Would you want him to risk not getting it by not going in? Wouldn't you pray over the weekend that the Lord's will be done, and then have him go in so that he does not do anything on a human level to change that will if he IS to have the promotion?
This is what it all means to me...A new life is such a wonderful BLESSING! Who am I to say, "God, I don't want any blessings right now...I'm going to stop them from coming by avoiding my husband when I know pregnancy is an option." I want to know that I have done nothing to stop the LORD's blessings from coming into our lives. If we choose to avoid a blessing, THE LORD may choose to not give us some blessings at another time.
GOD will not give us more than we can handle...if we are praying ceaselessly and diligently, OUR FATHER, will guide us and protect us. Why would we want anything else, but GOD's will to lead our lives?

As for the gender thing...when GOD was spoken of in the NT by Christ as well as HIS followers...the term PATER was used, meaning father...a male term. This is why I call my FATHER, HIM...I do not post this because I judge you, but to share my own personal insights...I would like to know why you choose to use SHE. I too, believe GOD may be genderless, but we will not know for sure until we meet HIM (or HER ) face to face.
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#43 of 45 Old 05-25-2003, 06:55 PM
 
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Hi,
I am happy to find folks talking about this!

I am a Christian and mom of 6 children. Our youngest was just born this past December. We have not used bc since after the birth of our 1st child, now almost 15 years old.

I've been dealing with questions about this too, for awhile. It's funny, 2 days before I found out I was pregnant this last time, I had said to my husband, "I'm finally at a place where I know if we don't ever have another sweet newborn in the house, I'm okay with that. I am content." I'm not kidding, 2 days later I learned I was pregnant! And I was not even suspicious of that. BIG surprise!
My pregnancies have all been hard, though....constant nausea, etc. for the whole nine months. Hard to take care of everyone else and homeschool, when you feel horrid! I am certain God planned every one of my babies. I am now 41, though, and am finding my body is not bouncing back so quickly this time! I had a clear sense in my spirit during my last pregnancy that this child completes our family. It's just a knowing. I am content with this as well. And it's pretty cool, my baby is a boy! Up until now we had one son, surrounded by girls. He is 10 and waited SO long for his little brother.

Someone made the point in this thread that we have to focus on the children we have, and not focus on possible future babies. That is definitely true. Also it is important of course to be in harmony with your husband about this. I think that would have to take precedence over anything else regarding having more children. God can change hearts if there's a need! When I first got married I thought I didn't want to ever have kids. He changed my heart completely and now we have a big family.

Each person has to seek God for themselves about this (and so many other things). QF is wonderful, but I don't think there's enough scripture to make it into a doctrine.
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#44 of 45 Old 05-26-2003, 01:43 AM
 
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Rebecca11, It is nice to meet you. I also have 7 children and appear to be done now, after 2 miscarriages in my 40's. It isn't always easy to be content with that, but my pregnancies were hard also, and I'm not sure this old body would handle another one well. It is a new season in my life and the Lord is leading me in new directions and teaching me new things. It is a beautiful thing.

We never heard of the term quiver full until our 6th or 7th child, but I guess it was how God was leading us all along. I agree that there simply isn't a scriptural backup to make the quiver full life a doctrine. It has to be a spirit led decision; it really is a matter of faith, not law.

It has been a beautiful lifestyle for our family, and I'm happy to see others being led similarly. )
edited because I don't know how that oops guy got there...hmmmm....I think I was going for something more like this...
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#45 of 45 Old 05-27-2003, 02:19 AM
 
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I agree with the fact that this must be a mutual decision with your husband...I'm sure all of us, as Christians would not deny that we should submit ourselves to our husbands.
A very wise woman and great example to mothers all over the world, Nancy Campbell, once said that even if our husbands are not Christians, we should still submit to them, following GOD'S commandment to women...and then TRUST GOD! She used the example of Sarah, when Abraham was asking her to lie (or not tell the whole truth) she submitted to her husband and God protected her...the bible actually says, "because of Sarah (Sarai)" (Gen. 12:17) he sent a plague on the Egyptians! WOW! If we obey HIM, HE will protect us!
There are many things that people see differently when it comes to the WORD of GOD...That's why I pray daily that the LORD will guide me in truth and in HIS will. What more can we do but to pray for the truth and then follow it when we find or see it. God knows our hearts and motives and I believe that if a person is devotedly and sincerely studying the Bible and loving the LORD and putting into practice the things which the HOLY SPIRIT shows them, I believe GOD is pleased.
In HIM,
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