do nonbelievers burn? - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-13-2002, 06:06 AM - Thread Starter
pie
 
pie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Ojai
Posts: 0
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
What is your take? If you are Christian, what is your church's take? Do you think that so long as one truly accepts Christ, even at the last minute of life, that they get in the Pearly Gates, no matter what they have done wrong on earth? Do you believe that GOOD people who are not Christian are doomed?
pie is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 07-13-2002, 07:19 AM
 
OceanMomma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: south of somewhere
Posts: 2,204
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I'm not a christian so I probably shouldn't be answering this. However, it is a question which I have wondered about for many years.
OceanMomma is offline  
Old 07-13-2002, 07:22 AM - Thread Starter
pie
 
pie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Ojai
Posts: 0
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
OM I want the opinion of anyone who cares to share, regardless of their religion. I was totally irate about this last week, and angered, but now I just want to know about it.
pie is offline  
Old 07-13-2002, 07:29 AM
 
OceanMomma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: south of somewhere
Posts: 2,204
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I'd be very interested as well, in a would like to know way rather than an agro stomping way.

I vividly remember a very heated arguement I had with a Jehova's witness once on this very topic. I had to majorly practise deep breathing since it was like talking to a brick wall. There also seems to be some division within the branches of christianity as to whether you get into heaven too. Like you have to be the right flavour christian or you're for the trip down below as well.

In my book good is good, regardless of what religion you happen to belong to. I s'pose I just had to get a post in so I get emailed when someone answers this else I'll lose the thread. I'm very good at that.
OceanMomma is offline  
Old 07-13-2002, 07:32 AM - Thread Starter
pie
 
pie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Ojai
Posts: 0
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
me too, OM.

I have to warn you all, I have some strong feelings here. I don't want to flame anyone or their beliefs but I am really passionate about this. I want to know about it.
pie is offline  
Old 07-13-2002, 11:02 AM
 
dfoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 811
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I consider myself leaning toward my Christian upbringing in my spiritual beliefs (my dad was a minister).

But I don't believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible, nor do I believe in exclusionary Christianity (where those of other faiths don't have it right unless they have Jesus).

So my "christianity" is sprinkled with pearls of wisdom from other faiths and spiritual beliefs.

That said, I don't believe in literal heaven or hell.

I DO believe in afterlife. I believe in karma. I believe in heaven and hell right here in this life on earth. I believe in reincarnation. I believe in a spiritual world.

No, mamapie, I don't think anyone is going to burn in hell.
dfoy is offline  
Old 07-13-2002, 11:14 AM
 
dfoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 811
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I just remembered this funny little story about my grandma who passed away at the ripe old age of 97 in 1986 (she could remember coming to Kansas in a covered wagon in the 1890's as a small child). It kind of illustrates OceanMamma's point.

My father was the minister of an independent Christian church in a very small farming town close to KC where we lived. My grandmother used to go to church with him often to hear him preach.

This particular church immersed people when they were baptised. My grandmother, being Methodist, had not been immersed. She had been "sprinkled", as is the norm in the Methodist church.

An older man, who was a fairly wealthy rancher, took a liking to my grandmother. He had her to dinner after church on several occassions.

On one of those occassions, they started discussing religion. He ended their relationship soon after because, as he put it, he wouldn't be seeing my grandmother in heaven since she hadn't been baptised the "right" way. My grandmother thought it was a hoot! She told him that she might not see him in heaven either, but it wouldn't have anything to do with baptism!
dfoy is offline  
Old 07-13-2002, 11:42 AM
 
NewMa's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: standing on the shoulders of giants
Posts: 765
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
LOL, dfoy.

My thoughts on hell: I don't see how there is any room for it in what I see as true Christianity. In my book, no matter what faith one adheres to, God is love, love is God. There is no way anyone can convince me that Christ did not come to us to spread unconditional love. There is no way anyone can convince me that any force of true love would condemn us to an eternity of suffering.

I do believe in karma. I do beleive that the God who is Love is a part of each and every one of us. We are all sacred and we are all potentially divine.

Those are my thoughts on hell in a nutshell. I know that they sound kinda new-agey idealistic and the Christians on board can point out Biblical evidence to prove that we are not all God's children so that it is not as problematic for them to reconcile the belief that their loving God could damn people.
NewMa is offline  
Old 07-13-2002, 12:25 PM
 
velveeta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Posts: 2,564
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I am not a Christian. And, I sometimes try to see things how G*d would see them. Here's how I have constructed an argument:

I know that I have a fair amount of compassion for people. I understand that someone's life circumstances can lead them to murder, rape, or other heinous acts. Of course, I think those things are terrible, but it is oftentimes all too easy to see patterns of abuse and hurt emerging when you hear about mothers killing their children and similar. That is, I think it is unusual to hear about someone who is mentally healthy, with a happy life commiting a bunch of murders.

The first thing that I think to myself is that there is something really wrong with that person, not that they, themselves, are "wrong." And if I (a tiny, little, everyday person) can feel compassion and forgiveness for cruelty, how much more forgiving and compassionate is Divine Oneness (G*d), who is infinitely compassionate and forgiving?

That is why I personally think that there is no punishment. If I (the mere peon) realize that punishments do no good, why would Oneness resort to such a primitive tactic?

Of course, in order for my beliefs to make sense to me, I have to believe in reincarnation. And if one doesn't believe that, it is harder to make sense of cruelty and hatred in the world. In fact, life would seem downright unfair, IMO!

Anyway, that is my take on the whole deal.

Jean

p.s. Sometimes I modify this belief in August here in Texas. Whoo-boy! Hot as hell!!

Jean, happy HS mom to Peter (5), Daniel (9) and Lucie (2) and also someone new... baby.gif
velveeta is offline  
Old 07-13-2002, 01:18 PM
 
Kalinka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Among the Pines
Posts: 284
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Mamapie, this is an issue in my life that will make me stark-raving mad! My ILs are VERY Christian and do believe that you will be hell bound if you do not except Jesus either b-4 you go or right after you go. My dh doesn't believe this and hasn't since he was 18 or so.

I wasn't raised with any particular religon but my parents did believe in a higher power and karma, but their beliefs were pretty open and non-judgemental. That being the case I personally feel drawn toward Paganism and so does dh and this is how we are planning on raising our dd. This of course is not something that is okay in the land of the ILs and we have tried to tell them that we aren't Christian (didn't even get into the Paganism thing) but that we believed in God but just not the way that they did. I cannot tell you how frustrating it has been for us. I have gotten more Christian crap from my MIL than I can handle even though she knows that I don't believe in God the same way that she does and we have been asked if we are going to church. WTF! Were they out of body when we talked to them! (Sorry, ranting )

Anyway, I was never really bothered by the fact that some people thought that I was going to hell for not being a believer but now I am just totally offended. I do not believe that there is a heaven and a hell. I believe that there is heaven (for lack of a better word) that everyone goes to and once there our soul recaps this particular life and what it has learned while here in the physical world. Karma comes into play here for me as far as past lives are concerned and so forth. My God doesn't have all those rolls and guidelines.
Ahhh, I think that ranted more than actually answered your question. Sorry
Kalinka is offline  
Old 07-13-2002, 04:20 PM
 
steph's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: chasing the ever changing butterfly
Posts: 1,963
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
well i guess i'm on board with the majority so far - i don't believe in a litteral heven or hell. i think we create them both here on earth and within ourselves. i do believe in karma, though not in the "if i'm a white klansman in one life, i'll be a poor black sharecropper in the next" - i don't things are that simple. but i do think if we're an @**hole in this life, we learn from that in some manner in the next. my concept of the divine is pretty vast - i think everything and everyone is god - or at leaste some aspect of god - like facets on a diamond for example. i have gotten plenty annoyed and offended by those well meaning types who just don't want to see me burn (perhaps they were the ones who lit the torch under my feet in a previous life for being a pagan?) bottom line, like newma said if god is love (as i believe), then the whole concept of punishment is ludicrous. for me god is not a person and therefore there are no ego hang-ups to be accountable for (i.e., worship ME and not some other dude).
steph is offline  
Old 07-13-2002, 04:56 PM
 
Arduinna's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 31,187
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I've had this discussion with my best friend a few times. She is Christian, I'm not. What it always came down to is this, " what if your wrong?" I see that question as proof positive that when you get down to it, it's not about faith it's about fear. Fear that you'll burn in hell if you don't believe.

I refuse to be bullied into faith. That isn't faith to me anyway. I have no use for a religion that keeps it's members by cohersion and fear. JMO flame me if ya want, I'm tough. I'm planning on surviving "hell" LOL.
Arduinna is offline  
Old 07-13-2002, 05:21 PM
 
indiegirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: The land of Nod
Posts: 2,952
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
That no professed Christians have said anything. I think the tone of the orginal post might be a bit scary/antagonistic if you believe that non-Christians will go to hell.

I am not Christian but was for awhile and from what I understand, if you don't believe Jesus is your savior, prepare to burn in damnation.

Actually, some of the Christians I know have said hell is merely being away from God or without God.
indiegirl is offline  
Old 07-13-2002, 11:32 PM
 
JessicaS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 42,897
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I agree with NM. Except to add children are excluded from this.

Besides if it makes you so angry then why ask??

Not all those who wander are lost 
JessicaS is offline  
Old 07-13-2002, 11:46 PM
 
mamaduck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 6,596
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I’m a Christian. I don’t think it is my job to decide who is going to hell and who is not. It is up to God.

That said, I do believe in hell. And like NM said, people speculate and come up with ideas about hell that fit into their worldviews. My favorite was formulated by a theologian, but I forget who (DH says it was Milton.) He basically said that there are 2 kinds of people. One kind of person says to God “Thy will be done.” To the other sort of person God says “thy will be done.” In my mind, this suggests that God respects our choices. If we choose not to know him, He allows that (though it makes him sad.) How does this lead to hell? Well, I believe that without God’s guidance and companionship, people more or less create their own hell.

So, theologically sound or not – these are my thoughts.
mamaduck is offline  
Old 07-13-2002, 11:54 PM
 
Beloved's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Central VA
Posts: 61
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I was raised in a fundamental Christian home, my parents (looking back on it) were pretty openminded towards alternative thinking and not melding with most of society. I love the traits that they modeled for me...

However i do not believe in a literall Hell, that is a subject that we agree not to discuss, bless you Nursing Mother for being willing to talk about it. I always enjoy your posts though my flavor is more pagan or nature based...youre posts remind me of my mama
I went through alot of fear about going to "hell" when i was growing up..i loved the idea of floating around with the angels who have golden wings, that sounds like such fun..but burning for eternity?? count me out.

I believe in Karma, for me that means that i will experience the way i affected othhers in life..this could be a completely unconscious way that i hurt someone , i would feel the pain i caused them. Or an intentionally cruel action...i will feel the intensity of pain or happiness and Love that i inflicted/gifted on other souls. Also, i believe that we could see clearly what we couldve done with our lives, if not for fear.
I used to get really angry at people who tried to bully me into accepting Christ to avoid hell, now i have compassion for the ones who sound really desperate...they are trying to care for me, to 'save my soul' the intentions are pure (mostly)
I can now tell them that i have accepted Christ, i truly embrace what i believe to be his true message..which is unconditional love, and i try to practice it in my life...i never understood how simply repeating a prayer could save you from "hell"
I don't label myself as having a religion, i am part Buddhist, Pagan, Christian, agnostic...??...

I am always open to leave behind the beliefs that limit me, i think of G*d as the great mystery. There could be a fiery Hell, it just doesn't feel true to me.

Blessings, Kelly
Beloved is offline  
Old 07-14-2002, 12:22 AM - Thread Starter
pie
 
pie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Ojai
Posts: 0
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Besides if it makes you so angry then why ask??
Well abimommy, so I can learn and understand and let go of my anger over the idea. Is that okay or no?
pie is offline  
Old 07-14-2002, 02:30 AM
 
Teresa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Maryland
Posts: 584
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
As a UU I believe that the only people who 'burn' are those of us who choose cremation!
I don't believe in any kind of afterlife.
Every living thing has a beginning, a middle and an end.
Nothing more, but more importantly, nothing less!
Of course, this is not to be taken as representative of all UUs!
Teresa is offline  
Old 07-14-2002, 03:06 AM
 
queen620's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 229
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Wow! I can't believe I'm posting a reply,b/c the question was stated so harshly.

My history is I was raised in an ultra conservative independant Baptist church. I attended a religious christian school supported by my church from the age of 4-18. I also attended a independant baptist college for two years, until my husband and I concieved our first child(I was in college to appease my parents-not b/c I wanted to be there). Since college I have moved away from some of my conservative upbringing in the way of everyday
living, but not so much doctrinally.

I believe that Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven, john 3:15-21,36. Based on scripture I believe that God would have ALL people to be saved. I Timothy 2:4, IIPeter 3:9. I also believe that God is the only one who can judge the heart of a person, and that I have no place to condemn someone else for not believing what I believe. Matt.7:1&2- "Judge not that ye be not judged, for with what judgement ye judge we shall be judged."

As far as the initial question of "do unbeleivers burn." I believe there is a leteral hell that is cast into the Lake of Fire at the end of the millenial kingdom. The lake of fire was original intended ONLY for Satan and his his angels. God's desire is for ALL to be saved. Revelation 20 talks about Satan being thrown into the Lake of Fire vs.10. In the following verses it says that ALL the small and great are bought before God and the books are opened and their works are judged, and "whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (Through earlier scriptures the BOok of life is always mentioned in reference to believers in Christ.) Also in Revelation 21:27 says only those that are written in the book of life will enter in[heaven].
So yes I believe that all those who choose not to belive in Jesus Christ will spend eternity separated from God.

Please take note that this is what I believe God's Word teaches. The first thing to accepting any belief similiar to mine is accepting that the Bible is God's Word, without this initial belief it will be hard to accept anything that I have said. With all that said, please remember that I am not choosing to judge anyone's heart for that is only the place of a just and holy God, not me an imperfect sinner who daily asks forgiveness for my sins.
queen620 is offline  
Old 07-14-2002, 03:31 AM - Thread Starter
pie
 
pie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Ojai
Posts: 0
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I do not believe I was that harsh! Sorry. Can we have this thread without tearing me apart please? Have I disrespected or even commented on anyone's viewpoint?

I respect your right to believe as you do. Thank you for sharing those beliefs with me. I have nothing else to say about it, I can feel everyone waiting to pounce on me. Thanks anyway.
pie is offline  
Old 07-14-2002, 04:51 AM
 
MarieK's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: CA
Posts: 53
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I promise not to pounce, Mamapie. I am a new Christian. I am new to the Bible. I had no clue growing up about JC and his awesome sacrifice. After talking to a few Christians who were (are) good friends, I decided to read the Gospels. I was immediately taken with the history of it all. I had been taught to believe that the Bible was just a 'bunch of stories' meant to frighten people into behaving a certain way. What I found, instead, was a history book describing the awesomeness of God's love. (is awesomeness even a word? oh well, ykwim) I find Christianity to be so gentle, kind, HUMBLE, that I think no true Christian could ever tell another soul that they are going to 'burn'. To do say goes absolutely against everything in the New Testament. Only God knows a person's heart. As I turn more and more to Faith, I realize that I always believed, I always had faith in Something, I just didn't see it. I know that's probably difficult to understand. It's difficult to put into words. What I mean is... I think that if I had died before my conversion, I still would have been forgiven, because He knows me better than I know myself.

I also believe that NO ONE on their own, is GOOD ENOUGH to go to heaven. I know I'm most certainly not!!!!!! I need Jesus' help every single day to keep patience, humility, kindness in the face of (minor) disaster, on and on..... I also need His help to get to heaven.

The true Christians I know are quiet, concerned, LOVING people. I am sorry that you have obviously dealt with another sort. It's impossible to hear the message if the messenger is too loud!!!
MarieK is offline  
Old 07-14-2002, 04:55 AM - Thread Starter
pie
 
pie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Ojai
Posts: 0
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thank you Marie. Would you email me your number again? It is stupid that we live like a mile away and have not met. I am so busy in the summer.
pie is offline  
Old 07-14-2002, 10:47 AM
 
merpk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 14,313
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
The Jewish view of heaven is beyond my ken, and I don't think it is our thing that there's a hell as such.

My understanding of the Jewish view is that we keep being reincarnated until we "get it right." And once we get it right, the only way to go is up.



- Amy

edited to invite B'Bird, dddD, Mom2Five, dandelion ... any Jewish mama who knows more, to please correct my mistakes ...
merpk is offline  
Old 07-14-2002, 11:33 AM
 
Els' 3 Ones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: An American Gulag
Posts: 3,623
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
C'mon, mamapie, you love to ride the tide You're one of the few mamas with the huevos to post such a question in spirituality. And you know heathen pinko commies should stay in activism.

I was raised Catholic and educated Catholic for 8 yrs. I've been baptized, communioned and confirmed. I've questioned faith since I was a very little girl, can remember asking tough questions to the nuns.

The thing that drives me away from that faith more than anything else in the exclusivity aspect. I cannot accept that one way is the right way to live and every other way is wrong. That deifes the very concept of God, IMO. Those that quote scripture as the fact sound to me like they believe in the book, not the concept.

There are many books. There are many ways to believe in a higher power. I believe firmly in a higher power. Which I have come to see as love.

I think people that do not love burn in hell everyday. I can see them around me when I look. They are writhing in pain and agony.

So, I think people who do not act in love and keep love in their hearts above all else, will/are burning in hell.
Els' 3 Ones is offline  
Old 07-14-2002, 03:04 PM
 
Kalinka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Among the Pines
Posts: 284
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I just wanted to say that in my original post I was totally ranting and I hope that it didn't come off too offensive. I had just gotten off the phone with my MIL and it was a HORRID call. While on the phone I was lectured on our up coming move and told that I needed to make sure that by us moving dh wouldn't be throwing away his life Then I stubbed my little toe and I think it's broken: And then I got this whole guilt trip about not finding a good church where we are moving to b/c this is the first thing that they did when they moved.
So I am sorry about my first post.

Mamapie, I know that you wanted this to be a thread that educates and not judges so I just wanted to say that I don't want to judge anyone or come off as judging and I really don't want to blow smoke. Anyhow, this had been bothering me and I just wanted to say sorry if I sounded bitchy or made anyone feel afraid to post, there won't be any flaming from me.
Kalinka is offline  
Old 07-14-2002, 05:22 PM
 
steph's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: chasing the ever changing butterfly
Posts: 1,963
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
The true Christians I know are quiet, concerned, LOVING people. I am sorry that you have obviously dealt with another sort. It's impossible to hear the message if the messenger is too loud!!!
mariek, there is alot of this out there (the loud ones)... my cousin-IL at a family gathering a couple years back, felt compled to stand up and announce that she was just so sorry and worried that we (non-believers) were all going to hell. and that she loved us all so much and just wanted us to be with her in heaven!!! mind you aside from her and her dh and ds, the rest of the family's pretty non-religious - though vaguely christian in orientation. so, as you might guess we were all pretty annoyed at her comment. my mil insists that the ONLY reason any of her kids and their spouses are going to heaven, is because she prays so hard for us. after awhile you feel like sticking your fingers in your ears, "i can't hear you, lalalala"... :
steph is offline  
Old 07-14-2002, 05:51 PM
 
MarieK's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: CA
Posts: 53
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Steph, I suppose that when people have been 'in' the religion too long, they forget what they thought of others who were always trying to 'convert' them. I guess in a roundabout sort of way it's good for me to be surrounded by my family of non-believers. I love them all, I want to 'save' them all, but ranting like that sure won't do it! I'm convinced that the better way is to teach through example (like we're supposed to do with our kids). I know EXACTLY what you mean by wanting to put your fingers in your ears!!! I'm sorry that this is the example of Christianity you have to see. Can I quote myself?! IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO HEAR THE MESSAGE IF THE MESSENGER IS TOO LOUD!! Ok, now *I'm* starting to be the loud one:
MarieK is offline  
Old 07-14-2002, 07:01 PM
 
BelovedBird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: HOME!! Northern Israel
Posts: 3,195
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally posted by amyrpk
The Jewish view of heaven is beyond my ken, and I don't think it is our thing that there's a hell as such.

My understanding of the Jewish view is that we keep being reincarnated until we "get it right." And once we get it right, the only way to go is up.



- Amy

edited to invite B'Bird, dddD, Mom2Five, dandelion ... any Jewish mama who knows more, to please correct my mistakes ...
You could be right.
From what I learned, Olam habah (the world to come) is something there is no "guidelines" about. There is only one thing that is known for sure. After death, at some point we are judged and it is up to each person, during there life to do as many mitzvot ( commandments, good deeds) as possible and as few sins. We cannot know the value of any action, that is only up to G-d to decide.


-BelovedBird

Mom of 5 boys- 13, 10, 8, 2 : and newbie Aug. 24th, '09 . babywearing advocate . Cook, baker, homemaker, wife to a man with another woman's kidney (live altruistic, unknown donor).
BelovedBird is offline  
Old 07-15-2002, 01:38 AM
 
dddD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Jerusalem
Posts: 139
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Will nonbelievers burn?

This is a very complex question, so bear with me.

According to Judaism, worthy gentiles do have a place in the next world (olam habah). All people must follow seven laws, and Jewish people must follow these laws and then some. The seven laws are:

Do not steal
Do not murder
Do not commit adultery
Do not blaspheme God
Do not worship idolatry
Do not eat a limb torn from a living animal
Establish a justice system to enforce the above laws

If a gentile (a non-Jewish person) sits in his kitchen all day doing crossward puzzles, that person has not done anything wrong, and goes to olam habah. But that person was not neccessarily a GOOD person, as doing crosswards all day does not compare to, say, trying to rid the world of slavery . A person who is actively (as opposed to passively) good, gets a "higher" place in olam habah- as I understand it a place closer to God's throne. This is true for all people, Jew and gentile.

If someone does not obey the above laws, theoretically has no place in the next world. I'm not exactly sure of the extent of this, and the following is my understanding which may have no actual basis in anything besides my opinion.
Because God created us all differently, a kleptomaniac has very different tests that someone who would never dream of invading another's privacy. Accordingly, God will judge the act of stealing differently in each case. We each start off at our own place, and we each end at our own place. What matters is not the "finish line" but how far we've come. Here in this world we do not know where someone else has begun, and we don't know how close they are to their goal, and we are obligated to judge others favorably. So no-one can say who will "burn" or not.

There is also a concept called teshuvah, which literally means return but is taken to mean repentance. If someone does sincere teshuvah, the offending action is wiped from that person's slate. If it is a person-to-person sin, forgiveness must be asked and granted before teshuvah can happen, but if it is a person-to-God sin, the forgiveness asked and granted is part of the teshuvah process. This is a big factor for the next world, because even deathbed teshuvah can earn a person a place in the world-to-come. (On a side note, the sin still exists in the world, and there are still consequences of that action, but it is no longer on the record of the person who committed the act.)

So anyone can avoid "burning" if they so desire.

I hope this wasn't too rambly, and that it actually answered the question.
dddD is offline  
Old 07-15-2002, 06:39 AM
 
3boys4us's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: rhode island
Posts: 1,536
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
dddD that was enlightening.

Did you ever see the Albert Brooks movie This is Your Life (I think) with Meryl Streep? It touched upon kind of what you're saying - that we are all tested in our life throughout our life.

I don't beleive in heaven or hell. I have hard time beleiving that someone who is morally good but chooses not to beleive would be sent to hell. I beleive in karma.
3boys4us is offline  
 
User Tag List

Thread Tools


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off