I think God gave humankind free will and some humans abuse the heck out of it... I think it breaks God's heart to see these kinds of things happen to His children by His children.
Part of a relationship with someone else or with God is the freedom to choose to be in the relationship or to not be in the relationship. Unfortunately in order to be able to freely choose God we have the option of not choosing Him. The choice to obey His will for us or the choice to ignore it. I believe that is what the person who took this little girl did.
Why God didn't stop it, I don't know. Some things we just don't have the answers to. We don't have the perspective that God does when He allows some things to happen.
It also helps me to look at all the people who have chosen "God" in the aftermath of this. All the support the family has been given, etc. I try to really focus on that.
I prefer her view to his.
I know you like to make light of things and have fun, Yammer, and you may be a gem at times, but I don't think it was very cool of you to make fun of that woman's belief and faith in God, especially after what she endured.
Heidi : Married for 15 years, expecting our 8th baby in July!
What is the lesson? I don't know. It is different for everyone.
It is so that God has the pleasure/pain of experiencing every part of life.
Reading Converstions w/ God by Walsh, has help me put things into different perspective.
With all due honor and respect.
On a side note, this is exactly why it irks me when I see some plane crash or tornado survivor on TV saying, "God wanted me to live. God saved my life." What about the people who died? Did God want them to die? Does God hate them? Did God not value their lives? Did they have nothing more to contribute to the world? In my humble opinion, God is not in the business of making decisions of that sort. I believe God has a larger, more general plan, and that everything that happens fits into that plan somehow, but I don't think that God micromanages our lives. This is not to say that we should not thank God when good things happen to us, or when bad things fail to happen to us. I just think it's insensitive of people to go on TV and proclaim that they survived some horrible disaster because God likes them, thereby insinuating that those who died were less deserving of God's favor. (Sorry about that...just had to rant.)
|Originally posted by Yammer
Really? I find the notion that some 6 million other people, at least half of them her co-religionists, starved or were shot or were gassed because God PREFERRED her over them to be orders of magnitude more callous and offensive.
ITA with SueZVudu on the "God wanted me to live" attitude. Or God wanted XYZ team to win the Super Bowl. : I don't get praying to God for specific things -- OK, I did it when I was a kid and it never worked for me :LOL so maybe I'm just bitter, but it seems like such a childish view of God. Sounds more like a genie in a bottle.
|Originally posted by SueZVudu
[On a side note, this is exactly why it irks me when I see some plane crash or tornado survivor on TV saying, "God wanted me to live. God saved my life." What about the people who died? Did God want them to die? Does God hate them? Did God not value their lives? Did they have nothing more to contribute to the world?[/B]
That is one of the sticky parts of spirituality for me. Why pray for God's help? Does He act to save people "in plane crashes" ir in natural disasters, for instance? I know prayer changes us, but does it ever cause God to act to "save" or to change circumstances and, if so, why does He only in some circumstances and not in others????? Or for some people and not for others? Do some people just hear his voice better? BLEH!!!! I feel certain about God in a lot of other respects, but that stuff is tough for me.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jaylind festivus i hope you will grow to love yam like the rest of us (well most of us ). he is a real gem! [QUOTE]
Yes, after I have been here longer I will get a better feel for where people are coming from. I participated in another forum for about a year and it's hard when you start off somewhere new b/c you don't know the personalities yet, etc. When in doubt, I ask. I look forward to getting to know all of you!
|we are given these character building situations so that we will learn from them. What is the lesson? I don't know. It is different for everyone. It is so that God has the pleasure/pain of experiencing every part of life.|
What about the millions of people who are suffering with AIDS or starving or caught in war? God needs to experience this? Those are character building expereinces, right? This is not a happy benevolent God you're talking about. This is a vengeful, spiteful entity. What lessons do they learn from this? Is life fair? No but to call all life's expereinces including those that are truly horrendous "character building" in the name of God is simplistic.
I am not in favor of monotheistic religions for this very principle, particularly christianity. There is a sense of holier then thou BS that I can't stand.
This is not someone with delusions of grandeur. Please, spare me the sarcastic comments. She did not think G-d singled her out for some great and holy reason. The storyteller insisted she was also one of the humblest people he knew.
She was saying that we all are made in G-d's image, we all walk with G-d, and why G-d does what G-d does we never can know. G-d is with us in the darkest situations, whether we live or die. And we all die eventually.
We cannot ever know why G-d does what G-d does. But we should always know that we are never alone.
That was the point.
People lived through the camps and came out with absolutely no belief, or antagonistic to belief. Others lived the same experience and came out with their faith deepened. Why?
Because each took the same set of circumstances and chose to respond to it differently.
Perhaps you could open your heart a little and see that, instead just the witty riposte.
And deliverance, forgive me, is your Christian meshugass. As is a "hard-working buddy god." And grace. AND "alleged chosenness." AND the "humanity" of G-d.
And no, her answer is in no way a nonsequitur. She was Jewish, and Jews don't believe that G-d just comes our way to deliver or not. We believe that G-d is immediate, here and now, at all times and in all places, no intermediaries, no barriers ... and her point was, as I said, G-d's presence was there for her.
I repeat: You can choose to respond to a given set of circumstances ... miraculously wonderful or horrifically tragic ... in all different ways. She chose her way, which was with G-d.
Others may choose differently. It's a choice. And it's apparent which one you've made. More power to you.
"No but to call all life's expereinces including those that are truly horrendous "character building" in the name of God is simplistic...I am not in favor of monotheistic religions for this very principle, particularly christianity."
3Boys4us, I just wanted to point out that the quote you were referring to by herblaunt (God puts us through suffering for character-building purposes and so he can experience pain) actually is waaaay off base from the Christian God, as is the book she referenced, "Conversations with God." So please don't interpret this notion as Christianity.
Not that some suffering doesn't build character--we all know it does--but just because God can *use* evil to bring about good does not mean he *approves of* or *delights in* killing, disease, war, etc.
amyprk, I am really enjoying reading your posts. They impart a true peace.
Yammer, I like how you hammer out the hard questions.
This is a fun thread.
Your story is beautiful.
It seems to me that G-d has given us free will. Including the ability to be truely evil.
That woman *chose* the presence of G-d near her. That is so profoundly beautiful.
No power on this earth could take that away from her.
So beautiful, empowering, and inspiring.
Thank you for telling the story.
The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it. We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.
Betty *(.)(.)* mama to: DS1 (12) DS2 (11) DS3 (8)
(12/26/06) (5/11/09) (10/7/09)x2
We decided to foul things up on the garden by not trusting god, so he has allowed us to suffer the consequences... with one exception, there is freedom from consequence (eternal seperation from God), by turning to him in our joy *and* our suffering. God really has the last word, so to speak, when it comes to evil because one truly saved cannot be lost, no matter the amount of suffering.
I believe the purpose in suffering lies in the way we respond to suffering. God wants us, he wants us to rely on him and only him for our lives. Suffering allows us to see that we do not control all of our circumstances, we are not in control of the world - it is a collective effort. Suffering has a way of bringing us down to a level of need, and God designed us to need him. He wants us to need others and to give to others in need, to reflect how he gives us what we need in life and for us to share the goodness of God and see his goodness in others. Suffering makes one compassionate to others, as God is compassionate to us.
We are designed to be dependent beings not independent of one another and not independent of God, and suffering, although I'm sure it makes God sad and in pain for us, opens a door to him and the miraculous healing he gives so freely if we accept it, trust him completely and look toward his love for guidance and peace.
It's either by the book (so to speak) or hell ( I guess).
I just don't buy it. This is a vindicative and hostile being you're describing. I don't find anything loving about your description. You describe god as wanting us to be dependent on him with suffering as the way to god. What's so great about that?
In simplistic terms your suffering is your own fault and god is the only way out. So what if you don't have great suffering or pain in your life? What does god do then? Give you suffering?
The original question was a good one - why do bad things happen? They happen because they do. Why not ask why do good things happen? They also happen on a daily basis (and I beleive far more frequesntly) and are as infinitesimal (sp) as a baby's first breathe.
peace, moondancer who knows God carries her in the palm of His hand so call me whatever names ya want yammer: