“christian Revisionism” -- Distorting The Historical Record For Religious Ends - Page 2 - Mothering Forums
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#31 of 55 Old 08-17-2002, 03:39 AM
 
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Quick comment on preaching - (too tired to spell the other p-word) If you knew your town was on fire, and the only way for people to save themselves was to get in your bus and drive north, wouldn't you try to tell as many people as possible as quickly as you could? Prostylization (SP!) is not just an activity for Christians. The message of Christ's salvation is life itself. Christians don't want to see others suffer an eternity apart from God. It's not something that we can just stop doing because it happens to be inconvenient or even against the law.
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#32 of 55 Old 08-17-2002, 10:44 AM
 
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Nicely put Nernie!!
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#33 of 55 Old 08-17-2002, 09:59 PM
 
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Well, I'm a member of a large mainstream Christian denomination, and we do not feel moved to force our religion down other people's throats. We welcome people who are interested, we share information if it's sought out, but harrassment, no thanks.

As always, it frosts my cookies when one particular denomination or group tries to speak for all of Christianity.
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#34 of 55 Old 08-19-2002, 10:45 AM
 
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The message of Christ's salvation is life itself. Christians don't want to see others suffer an eternity apart from God. It's not something that we can just stop doing because it happens to be inconvenient or even against the law.
That in and of itself is a highly religionist (?) quote. The idea that THE only way is through Christ is ridiculous. There are thousands of ways of religious expression in this world. For any religion to assert that theirs in THE only way is not a religion of freedom and tolerance.

The fact that many of these missionaries are white middle class Americans are a whole other issue.

Furthermore on prosetylsing, if it's illegal and you get caught then by all means you should be punished, particularly a missionary. After all a missionary's defination is to convert. One knew it was against the law. You haven't changed the oppressive regime that hands out these punishments.
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#35 of 55 Old 08-19-2002, 08:54 PM
 
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Originally posted by 3boys4us


That in and of itself is a highly religionist (?) quote. The idea that THE only way is through Christ is ridiculous. There are thousands of ways of religious expression in this world. For any religion to assert that theirs in THE only way is not a religion of freedom and tolerance.

The fact that many of these missionaries are white middle class Americans are a whole other issue.

Furthermore on prosetylsing, if it's illegal and you get caught then by all means you should be punished, particularly a missionary. After all a missionary's defination is to convert. One knew it was against the law. You haven't changed the oppressive regime that hands out these punishments.
Part of being a Christian IS believing that Christ is the only way to salvation. It says that in the Christian Bible. It has nothing to do with a lack of "tolerance" or "freedom" because, a Christian can be respectful of other ways of religious expression and still keep thier own truth as the only real truth. Besides, there is little to any religions' truth if they claim that all other religions have the same amount of truth to them, make sense?
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#36 of 55 Old 08-19-2002, 09:00 PM
 
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Originally posted by EFmom
Well, I'm a member of a large mainstream Christian denomination, and we do not feel moved to force our religion down other people's throats. We welcome people who are interested, we share information if it's sought out, but harrassment, no thanks.

As always, it frosts my cookies when one particular denomination or group tries to speak for all of Christianity.
Proselytizing is not the same thing as harrasment. If you don't like what your hearing you don't have to listen. No one is forced to convert, it's a choice, and it won't happen anyway without faith. I was "proselytized" to and I sure am glad I listened and gave it some much deeper thought for the future of my life.

Now if I had been harassed I'm sure I would have turned a deaf ear to the harrassment, and maybe I would have gotten another chance later with some other polite witnesses like the ones that pointed the way for me. It's like everything else in life, some of the people talking are rude and bossy and some are kind and receptive. But I think that spreading the good news can be done in a respectful way, even if it's not sought out.
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#37 of 55 Old 08-19-2002, 10:23 PM
 
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booby, I'm glad you enjoy having other people inflict their religious beliefs on you. I don't and many other people don't. For us it is most assuredly harrassment. I think it is extraordinarily rude to go knocking on strangers' doors to tell them what they ought to believe.

God, in his infinite wisdom, gave me opposable thumbs. If I wanted to contact a particular religious organization, I could pick up a phone and do it. I always ask that they put me on their do not contact list, but they always keep coming back. Harrassment, pure and simple.
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#38 of 55 Old 08-20-2002, 11:50 PM
 
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Originally posted by EFmom
booby, I'm glad you enjoy having other people inflict their religious beliefs on you. I don't and many other people don't. For us it is most assuredly harrassment. I think it is extraordinarily rude to go knocking on strangers' doors to tell them what they ought to believe.

God, in his infinite wisdom, gave me opposable thumbs. If I wanted to contact a particular religious organization, I could pick up a phone and do it. I always ask that they put me on their do not contact list, but they always keep coming back. Harrassment, pure and simple.
Hmm perhaps you misunderstood me. I didn't really address a door knocking issue just a preaching thing in general. In my case it was people I already knew talking to me about God. Not my closests friends but acquaintences, and it didn't bother me at all, it's all in HOW people speak to you, respectfully or not. I would consider it harrassment if the same people kept contacting me even though I asked them not to - so I think we agree here more than you do.

Also, occasionally the Mormons come knocking on my door and they are pretty nice people, we usually have a short and polite conversation. I do know a few Christians, obviously more witted and bible versed than I, that actually enjoy a good long talk with them and other types of religious door to door preachers. If looked at that way, it actually makes MORE tolerance and understanding between different religions. At least they are conversing instead of just slamming doors on each other. Food for thought.

And Yammer, thanks for your thoughts. I agreed with much of what you said!

I was just thinking a few minutes ago when I saw the new "P" thread that people trying to sell me crap annoys me more than any religious person I've ever encountered!!! Selling selling selling everywhere. At my door, on the phone, over the internet, in front of all the grocery stores. And how they use kids to do it drives me nuts!
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#39 of 55 Old 08-27-2002, 07:16 PM
 
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I've never minded having a missionary or two come to my door. Especially during DH illness, it was wonderful knowing so many people were praying for us.
HOWEVER, when I am told my beliefs are WRONG and for thinking the way I think I will burn in HELL ... well, being shot is just too nice for these people as far as I'm concerned.
I, too, was created in the Creator's image and any of my wacky thoughts are just His/Her way of teaching me what I need to learn in order to make it back to that place of peace from which we've *all* come. I don't think any of our journies are WRONG, they are *ours*
Share away! Just leave the judgement for the Judge...

~diana google me: hahamommy. Unschooling Supermama to Hayden :Super Cool Girlfriend to Scotty . Former wife to Mitch & former mama to Hannahbear
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#40 of 55 Old 08-31-2002, 04:33 AM
 
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I have very strong reactions to certain things. I believe that there are right ways and wrong ways. I believe that scheduling an induction for convenience bc you want your mother to be in town when the baby pops out is wrong. I believe that not breastfeeding your precious baby bc you are afraid of saggy boobs is wrong. I think most people here would agree with me on those points.

So, why is it that a person in this loving wonderful dot commune then says that death is not good enough for me if I were to say that someone who does not believe in my God is wrong? Within the pages of the bible, I find words that lead me to believe that Chrisitianity is the true path to Heaven. I find words that lead me to believe that it is my duty to share this news with others. When I do it, I do it out of love for another. If you were about to put your hand on a stove that you thought was turned off and I thought was turned on, and I said"Dont touch it, it is hot!" and it turned out that I was wrong and you were right, would it make my intentions any less compassionate? Would you be justified in punching me in the face bc I didn't believe you when you said that it was off, and sought to protect you anyway?

Christians have done some horrible things in the name of Christ. nonChrisitans have done some horrible things in the name of Christ too. That does not relieve Chrisitans of the duty Jesus gave to us, to go forth into all nations and preach the Gospel. There is a difference between judging a person and laying out the facts as one sees them and letting the person judge for himself. I think a lot of times, what a Christian is doing is misinterpreted as the former, when in reality, it is the latter.

Valerie-with the peace that passes all understanding-in my soul!
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#41 of 55 Old 08-31-2002, 07:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Boysrus,

Wonderfully said
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#42 of 55 Old 08-31-2002, 11:08 AM
 
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I agree....well said.

If one of my friends died tomorrow and they weren't "saved" and I had opportunities to share with them and I didn't..I would feel terrible and their would also be consquences for not following God's leading. Also..being a Christian often times and should make up who we are as people. Often we talk about our passions...that is part of our make up...well Christianity should be a passion to those of us who are Christians.
I am not saying that their are terrible ways to present what we call the truth..being pushy and over bearing is not a good thing..that will scare people away. Christ never pushed. I truely believe that he had a quiet and gentle spirit. Therefore he presented the truth meekly.....(not sissly(is that a word ) but gently)
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#43 of 55 Old 08-31-2002, 02:35 PM
 
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Yammer, it is rude if you do it a rude way. If you are caring and sincere there shouldn't be any rude inflections. I know you don't see it that way. If is far ruder to let someone die and burn in hell because I failed at telling them about God. Now granted.....this is all only so if "my" religion is the ONE and true religion.

I don't really wish to debate this with you. You are just debating and not sincerely looking.....
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#44 of 55 Old 08-31-2002, 03:26 PM
 
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Yammer, it is rude if you do it a rude way.
How DO you say that without being rude? Personally, I've never heard anyone pull it off.


From my pov, I know people who are christian and I know where christian churches are. I'm pretty sure everyone in the U.S. can say the same. It would be impossible for me to be unaware of the christian version of the "truth." If I require more information, I know where to go, and I think everyone else does, too. Therefor it is completely unnecessary and remarkably pushy to go door to door as if I might have never heard of this thing. Jmo.

Namaste,

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#45 of 55 Old 09-01-2002, 12:36 AM
 
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but pallas, if it were unnecessary, they wouldnt be doing it. Because, if it wasnt working and they werent getting converts by going door to door, they would consider it a waste of time.
I will tell you what, I grew up in the Catholic church. Every Sunday and holy day of Obligation for 18 years I listened to "church talk" and it had no effect on me. I lived my life for me and stopped attending all together. And then, 8 years later, my sister began speaking to me about the importance of a relationship with Jesus Christ. And she finally asked me if i had accpeted jesus as my savior. I said no, and on the spot, she led me through the prayer.
Yes, I knew where all the churches in town were, but I never would have gone into them. I just was not interested. But, hearing it all from someone I loved, that made me sit up and listen. I think God uses people in all sorts of ways and puts them where people need them to be: sometimes on their doorstep, sometimes in a church, sometimes on the television.

Just my pov
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#46 of 55 Old 09-01-2002, 08:33 PM
 
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Well I suppose if it's not rude to tell someone they will burn in Christianity's hell, then it wouldn't be rude for me to say that according to my beliefs they are doomed to keep returning to mortal life until they get a clue, act out of true love and compassion and quit judging people based on which particular religion, if any, they belong to.

If "your" statement isn't rude than neither is mine.

Funny, I can't imagine saying such a rude thing to someone's face.

The defining difference for me is the one between Fact and Belief.

Christians have a Belief about the afterlife. I have a Belief about the afterlife. Neither one is a proven fact, and neither one should be used as a fear tactic to bully someone into changing their Beliefs.

I always like the town on fire analogy. Some of us have a different vantage point and can see the fire. It's not consuming the town at all, and we're joyously dancing around it.

"What will you do once you know?"
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#47 of 55 Old 09-01-2002, 09:40 PM
 
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I have no problem with someone else telling about their version of the truth. I strongly believe what I believe...no one can change that...to me..if you sense that their is some truth in it otherwise it wouldn't bother you so much.

Throw a stone into a pack of dogs and the one that yelps is the one that you hit.
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#48 of 55 Old 09-01-2002, 10:10 PM
 
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No, it's not a matter of being bothered by something because I "sense ... truth in it".

It's a matter of hearing the same thing getting old.

It's a matter of hearing people who can't distinguish between fact and believe getting old.

It's a matter of seeing the hypocracy, in some cases, for what it is.

The last time someone came knocking on our door with their religion I advised that we are quite happy with our beliefs, then I offered him a glass of cold water for his child because it was a hot day. I think that was the last time, last summer.

Oh yeah, some JW's were hitting our neighborhood, Again, this summer when MIL and I were loading DD into the car and leaving. They wisely didn't waste their time or ours.

"What will you do once you know?"
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#49 of 55 Old 09-03-2002, 02:13 PM
 
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Ever heard the saying, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions"? It doesn't really matter that your heart is in the right place or that you feel you have no choice because your Bible commands it. It's still rude, especially if done in the 'you're eternally damned if you don't believe what I believe" style.

The first time someone knocks on my door (or tries to hand me a pamphlet while I'm walking downtown, etc), I will politely refuse. The second time? Mama's gonna have a hard time being nice.

And, Meiri, I loved this: "I always like the town on fire analogy. Some of us have a different vantage point and can see the fire. It's not consuming the town at all, and we're joyously dancing around it."

Yup. Some of us are toasting marshmallows, too!
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#50 of 55 Old 09-03-2002, 02:32 PM
 
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Meiri.....

Technically christians are supposed to lead a life coming from a truely loving and compassionate place, and they are not supposed to judge people for their beliefs or how they live...

That is how true christianity is supposed to be... That said... If they are coming from that pure place of heart and they are telling you something they believe in that same pureness are they being rude or wrong, or simply sharing from true love and compassion with no judgement in there soul....

Wouldn't you do the same thing for them if you could?

It's lonely being the only XX in a house of XYs.
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#51 of 55 Old 09-04-2002, 06:07 PM
 
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Pynki, I agree that that is where Christians are to be acting from, and that that is what true Christianity should be--compassion and love. And I've seen a few who do their best and do quite well in that regard, my mom and one of my aunts to name two.

But if someone doesn't share that particular world paradigm, how is it kind to say such things to them from yours? To me that smacks of fear tactics. Look what will happen to you, look what my book says will happen to you if you don't follow it.

For me, part of Respect is respecting that someone has a different world view and that my beliefs may be irrelevent to their world view. This goes both ways. If someone asks, answer their questions. If they don't, mind your own beliefs and let them mind theirs.

While I respect that the Bible contains a fair amount of wisdom, I do not define the world from it. Therefor, to tell me "the Bible says ........." is irrelevent to me as that is not the spiritual or factual source I draw from. To scare my children with such is ...words fail .... as that is not the view of Christianity I would have them have. Yet in my son's case, the "Christians" up the street gave that to him themselves.

If someone politely approaches me, I politely respond with "no thank-you, I am happy with my beliefs, glad you're happy with yours." My friends know what I am and what I am not. We respect each others' rights to our own consciences and beliefs. We live and let live. Amazingly enough our ethics and actions aren't all that different dispite the differences in belief and worldview. The one who suddenly discovered..., as it were(I wear rather distinctive jewelry and we saw each other twice/month and talked on the phone.....), removed herself as friend over a year ago.

As an aside: DH pointed out that my spin on the town fire analogy might look like happiness at others' misfortune. Not my intent, hope I had it clear. What I was aiming for was the idea that from another perspective the town isn't on fire or in the least bit of danger. It's only a lovely bonfire that we're dancing and toasting marshmallows around, thus no need for fear or flight.

"What will you do once you know?"
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#52 of 55 Old 09-05-2002, 07:39 PM
 
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Just for the record, there's a difference between a conversation between friends that arrives at the subject of spirituality, and seeking out strangers or mere acquaintances and pummelling them with unsolicited advice about their immortal soul. I think when we're talking about rudeness, we're thinking of the latter. I've had conversations about religion or spirituality with my friends and enjoyed it thoroughly -- but I still find it to be incredibly arrogant and intrusive to knock on my door, buttonhole me outside my grocery, or leaflet my car.

I was kind of afraid that both sides were losing sight of the specific behavior that causes offense, and we were in danger of degenerating into generalities, which is really fun to say. Try it! "degenerating into generalities!" I'm going to be working that phrase into a lot of conversations in the near future, I can tell you ...
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#53 of 55 Old 09-05-2002, 10:48 PM
 
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just for the record..I don't go door to door or bombard people..that would be rude.
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#54 of 55 Old 09-06-2002, 05:32 AM
 
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Well, now, see ... there ya go. Common ground.

Love that!
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#55 of 55 Old 09-06-2002, 12:18 PM
 
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Good points Pallas.

"What will you do once you know?"
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