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#1 of 35 Old 07-30-2002, 02:54 AM - Thread Starter
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"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,
and we beheld his glory,
...full of grace and truth."

John 1:14

God is also known as "the Word", true? So if the Word is God and the Word became flesh, this should mean that God delivered Himself to the Earth as Jesus. Is this true?

Do you believe God to be of flesh and bone, and a separate being from Jesus and the Holy Spirit?

Just need some serious insight. Alas, my journey home continues. It's these little road blocks that make the journey longer
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#2 of 35 Old 07-30-2002, 12:28 PM
 
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Well, hey - I'll have a go. This is one of the great mysteries of the Christian faith - that God is 'Trinity' - three in one.

I believe that Jesus was God incarnate...that God became man and walked on earth. The way that the Trinity makes the most sense to me is to think of God as relational - God is, as part of His very essence, in relationship. God the father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are in relationship with each other, while also being one and the same.

Sorry...crying baby, must run - maybe someone else can expand more coherently?!
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#3 of 35 Old 07-31-2002, 01:21 AM
 
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Probably the hardest part of Christianity to grasp (including resurection) is the trinity. I believe that Jesus was God incarnate but seperate but the same as God the father.

I very weak way to explain it is water can eist in three forms - gas, solid and liquid but it is all the same water. The three forms can reshape and reform into each other.

God and Jesus are one but Jesus is the so and God is the father. The Holy Spirit is that which dwells amoung us and talk to God on our behalf but is still God fully. Weird huh? Hard to grasp withour infinite minds. One of those things we can look forward to understanding fully in the next life.

The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

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#4 of 35 Old 07-31-2002, 03:33 AM
 
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I believe that God is flesh and bone, that Jesus is flesh and bone, and that the Holy Ghost is spirit. I believe that God was once a man, like us (only most of us are women ) and reached perfection and was exalted and had many, many spirit children (us) and created this wonderful plan for us to learn and grow (earth life) and faulter and repent so that we could have the opportunity to become perfect like he is (and that he went through this same process) and that Jesus is our elder brother who volunteered to come to earth to show us the way and to die for us on the cross that we might live again (through ressurection) and to give us the opportunity to repent and be forgiven of our sins and learn and grow. I believe that the Holy Spirit is with us, guiding us and comforting us and gently encouraging us when we live worthily and when we invite Him into our lives.
As for the scriptural reference...I think this is a very cool scripture. I actually have this one framed in my bathroom. Jesus is the God of the Old Testament, Jesus was in the beginning with God because he is our eldest brother, and Jesus created the earth under God's direction.

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#5 of 35 Old 07-31-2002, 04:16 AM
 
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I tend to relate things to food so here's how I see the Trinity.

Think of an egg. There is a shell, a white and a yolk. Three parts, but yet one egg. Or an apple. Skin, fruity part, core. Again, three parts but it all makes one whole apple. An egg wouldn't be an egg without the shell or an apple an apple without the core. The Trinity wouldn't be fully functional without all three parts, Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

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#6 of 35 Old 07-31-2002, 04:28 AM
 
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I agree that we need "all three parts"....but they are not one being, but three seperate, distinct parts...just like the shell, albumum, and yolk of an egg....(or skin, fruity part (this must be the technical term...I couldn't think of anything else to call it and assume you couldn' t either! ) , core of an apple).....they all work together for one purpose (to be an egg or to be an apple) but are not the same thing and have different roles to play.
I don't mean to start a debate....but, well...I guess I am debating. I don't mean to! But I guess it's bound to happen in a situation where the majority view is different from mine and I choose to enter the discussion. So please don't think I am being argumentative...I'm not trying to be! Just putting my thoughts and feelings out there....

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#7 of 35 Old 07-31-2002, 04:33 AM
 
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Each part of the Trinity serves its own purpose too. God the Father is the Creator of everything, Jesus is our path to salvation and the Holy Spirit is our Comforter and internal guide. They all have a purpose that is very much its own but without all of them, the whole thing would fall apart.

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#8 of 35 Old 07-31-2002, 04:36 AM
 
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yeah, I am agreeing with you, mommybear. The plan of salvation would not work without all three of them. And I agree with you about the roles that they play...I am totally in agreement....but I don't believe they are one being. Is that what you believe? Or do you believe they are three seperate beings? I am confused......

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#9 of 35 Old 07-31-2002, 04:41 AM
 
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I believe that the three parts make one whole part. You're right in that the skin (or even the technical "fruity part") of an apple is its own part but it also forms part of the whole apple. That's how I see Jesus, the Holy Spirit and God. They are all different but they come together to make something even bigger.

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#10 of 35 Old 07-31-2002, 04:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Back to my original post, how do you explain this verse if you do not belive in the trinity(again just looking for more insight

"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,
and we beheld his glory,
...full of grace and truth."
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#11 of 35 Old 07-31-2002, 12:02 PM
 
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Well, DiaperDiva, to take that verse as absolute truth one would have to believe that every single word in the Bible is literal truth and truly God's word and not man's.

I don't believe that.

That's how I can say that I don't believe Jesus and God are the same being.
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#12 of 35 Old 07-31-2002, 12:48 PM
 
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This doesn't exactly clear up Diaper Diva's question but it's a good passage to chew on...

The disciple John related this encounter between Jesus and his close friends:
(John 14: 5-9)

Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you're going, so how can we know the way?"
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.
Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.
Jesus answered, "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?"
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#13 of 35 Old 07-31-2002, 01:18 PM
 
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You can actually think of it this way too (not sure if it has been said yet)

GOD

Father: Spirit of God in heaven

Jesus: The face of God

Holy Spirit: The voice of God
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#14 of 35 Old 07-31-2002, 10:40 PM
 
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Stepping in with an Advaitan (nondual) viewpoint, I believe that separation is an illusion, and that God (which I like to call Consciousness) is equally present in everything and everyone. I believe that Jesus (and Buddha, Krishna, etc.) realized this reality and are an example of who we truly are behind the illusion.
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#15 of 35 Old 07-31-2002, 11:59 PM
 
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I like your description, boobykinmamma. I guess that is really what I believe, too. Thanks for putting it into words.
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#16 of 35 Old 08-01-2002, 01:18 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Super Pickle

The disciple John related this encounter between Jesus and his close friends:
(John 14: 5-9)

Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you're going, so how can we know the way?"
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.
Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.
Jesus answered, "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?"
If, in fact, these are Jesus' exact words, I believe what he is saying is right in line with boobykinmamma's response. What Jesus is trying to get across is that we, just like him are all part of God. We are God. By knowing Jesus we know God. And if we truly knew ourselves we would know God also. Jesus was a highly evolved being, and he understood what we feared most was a "personal" relationship with God. And so, he offered himself to us...he essentially said that if we could not go to God alone then go through him....but this does not mean we have to go through Jesus to be with God (or find the God within us).

Sorry, DiaperDiva, I kind of veered off course from your original question.
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#17 of 35 Old 08-01-2002, 03:13 AM - Thread Starter
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My husband said that the trinity is a very complex thing to understand, yet I find it pretty easy to grasp.

Let's see if I can write this down the way it is in my head.

I do believe Jesus to be God incarnate. I believe that at that time people needed a visual aid(so to speak), therefore God created himself in Jesus(God is Jesus in the flesh). I also believe God to be the Holy Spirit(again in a form that we can relate with, feel.)

I can relate to Rachelsmom's ana;ogy the best:


Father: Spirit of God in heaven

Jesus: The face of God

Holy Spirit: The voice of God
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#18 of 35 Old 08-01-2002, 10:18 AM
 
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Yes, Rachelsmoms' analogy was the best I'd ever heard. I also heard it put like this once:
As one human being is made up of body, soul, and spirit, so God is made up of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
Spirit, face, and voice, though, is better.
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#19 of 35 Old 08-01-2002, 11:02 AM
 
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Hey, do you think God is laughing at us (in a good way)? Trying to figure it out? Describing God as an apple and an egg?

Super pickle - perhaps this is fodder for another thread but I think of humans as being made up of "body, mind and spirit (soul)", "not body, soul and spirit".

Maybe I'll have to start another thread..this is fascinating
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#20 of 35 Old 08-01-2002, 11:13 AM
 
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Oh, Deirdre, I guess it just depends on how we define "soul." I tend to lump mind and heart in with "soul"-- our thoughts, emotions, passions, etc. And I think of spirit as something greater...the part of us that' eternal, the wellspring of courage and true selflessness and unconditional love for the unlovable....T
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#21 of 35 Old 08-01-2002, 01:09 PM - Thread Starter
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After everyone's responses, I think I am coming to the conclusion that how we view God, or the trinity, doesn't really matter. And yes I think he is laughing at us(in a good way). You struck a nerve when you said "Figure if out", and I remembered this is GOD we're talking about and there are so many things our human minds could never 'figure out' about Him. Yet we continue to try to master the Master.

I think all of the answers above are correct in some way
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#22 of 35 Old 08-01-2002, 11:53 PM
 
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I believe the scripture to be the inherant word of God so I believe in the Trinity as all in one. Genesis talks about that in the first chapter. The word US is used...that would be plural.
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#23 of 35 Old 08-02-2002, 01:18 AM - Thread Starter
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And the word US, could be interpreted as more than one person. So it is not all black and white like I originally thought.
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#24 of 35 Old 08-02-2002, 01:36 AM
 
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DiaperDiva:

I'm going to jump on youngnhappy's bandwagon, b/c she and I believe the same. We believe in God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, as two separate beings, with flesh and bones, perfected bodies. The Holy Spirit is a third being, does not currently have a body because that would conflict with his current calling--to touch our spirits directly.

Quote:
Originally posted by DiaperDiva
Back to my original post, how do you explain this verse if you do not belive in the trinity(again just looking for more insight

"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,
and we beheld his glory,
...full of grace and truth."
I do not believe in the trinity as a single person--youngnhappy talked about Jesus as the God of the Old Testament. So we believe that God the Father and Jesus Christ had a "discussion" regarding the creation of the earth, where the Father said and then sent the Lord (Jesus) and the Lord did. Therefore, Jesus is Jehovah is God, and this is who this scripture is referring to when it says "And the Word became flesh". Previously in John it says:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made." John 1:1-3

This describes the way that the Father is God (the Word was with God) and Jesus Christ the Son is God (the Word was God) and also Jesus was God because "all things were made by him".

Another example I like is at the baptism of Jesus Christ, each member of the Godhead was present: Jesus was present physically, God the Father was present as He said, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased". And the Spirit descended in the form of a dove.
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#25 of 35 Old 08-02-2002, 02:13 AM - Thread Starter
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As you can see I am going back and forth, because their is scripture to support both, or all claims.

Take the following as examples that seem to support a non-trinity belief:

Ephesians 1:20

"...which He(God) exerted in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand..."

There is another verse, and it is killing me that I cannot find it, about a conversation God had with Jesus and Satan. He asked who would be willing to go and teach us about God? Something like that. It was where Satan said he would(but he would force us to obey, and then accept all glory for himself) and Jesus would teach us and give all glory to God. Anyway, point being, God and Jesus had a conversation, could be interpreted as 2 (3 if ya count the loser) individuals.

PLEASE someone help me with this verse...
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#26 of 35 Old 08-02-2002, 02:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
This clearly indicates that God=the Word.
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#27 of 35 Old 08-02-2002, 04:31 AM
 
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I guess I've always been very confused as to why so many people believe that God and Christ and the Holy Spirit are one being. All over in the bible you see Christ talking of his father, praying to his father on behalf of the people, pleading with his father in the Garden of Gethsemane, praying to his father on the cross, refering to God as his father, and our father (St. John 20:17) "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."
The first chapter of the book of Hebrews expressly states that God is sending His son:
"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
"Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
"Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himslef purged our sins, sad down on the right hand of the Majesty on high......"
Jesus created the world, etc, at God's direction:
Ephesians 3:9
"....from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ."
When Christ was hanging on the cross:
St. Luke 23:46
""And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, inot they hands I commend my spirit; .....
If God is some mystical, three-fold being, then how is it that we were created in His image and He is our Father?
In Genisis God is always saying "us" (1:26 "...let us make man in our image..." 3:22 "...man is become as one of us, to know good and evil..."
In Matthew 3:17 "this is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased..."
Luke 1:32 "called the Son of the highest.." 3:22 "...Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove...."
John 8:18 "..Father that sent me beareth witness of me..." 14:28 "my Father is greater than I..." 17:21 "That they all may be one, as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."

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#28 of 35 Old 08-02-2002, 04:39 AM - Thread Starter
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So which is it?????

Who knows?!
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#29 of 35 Old 08-02-2002, 04:53 AM
 
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God knows. Ask him.

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#30 of 35 Old 08-02-2002, 11:22 AM
 
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This is a difficult topic and I am sure has been debated throughout the centuries.

I believe that in the trinity, as God, the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit. Maybe he can be 3-in-1. I don' t know...to me it is a faith thing. I believe they are one and the same but yet different. I am sure we will never know for sure till we get to heaven and we can ask for ourselves.
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