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#31 of 60 Old 09-15-2002, 02:34 PM
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Dary, my family was 'invited to leave' three Xian churches simply b/c I asked questions! My 'faith was weak' and I was 'in rebellion', among other things. I was also a 'Jezebel' and called many other Biblical mean words.

There certainly are a ton of mean things to say to people from Bible verses; I know that first hand! :-D Especially from the non-peacemaker Jesus. His words are some of the harshest, cruelest things I've ever read. But then, he didn't claim to be a peacemaker.

Anyway, I believe in everyone's right to follow whomever and love whomever they wish. If someone wants to follow and love X(christ), that's fine. But so often, I've found that those same lovers of X do not take him for his complete life. Meaning, they cherry pick out the words and examples they find meaningful (a la the cafeteria style of spirituality) and ditch/ignore the rest.

Which is a major disservice to whatever deity one subscribes!!

I think that one should either know the sacred text of their religion EXTREMELY WELL, in it's entirety, or not be a professed follower at all. If one claims that the Bible is the inerrant word of God, then know it back and forth and reconcile the immense contradictions inherent in that flawless, God-inspired 'holy' book.

I just don't think it's enough to say 'God is Love', therefore, I love God'. One really needs to know of whom they love before ever claiming such allegiance.

Original Sin is a concept that serves a socioeconomic service quite well and has been employed to oppress people for some time. If one is born bad and can only be redeemed via 'the blood of X', then anyone outside that relationship is damned, any which way you cut it.

And of course, there is the Xian Tradition and then there is the Biblical texts. Many self-proclaimed Xians are well versed (pun intended) in the Xian Tradition but do not know they sacred text very well at all. Or know just a few key verses to go out and 'witness' with a colored book (black for 'sin', red for X's blood, white for 'sins washed away', gold for Heaven's streets, etc.)

I had to laugh at the idea of 'unoriginal sin'. Indeed! As Solomon is alleged to say, there is nothing new under the sun.
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#32 of 60 Old 09-15-2002, 02:48 PM
 
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Since when is it okay to spew prejudice on these boards and make unfounded assumptions about entire groups of people? Since when is it acceptable to trash others' beliefs, culture, and tradition? Believe what you want to believe but please refrain from attacks on other faiths.


It's called TOLERANCE.

Thanks.
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#33 of 60 Old 09-15-2002, 03:01 PM
 
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"What will you do once you know?"
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#34 of 60 Old 09-15-2002, 03:09 PM
 
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I would appreciate it if we could keep on track here. This thread is about whether or not you believe in the devil. It is not about what faith you are and why. It can be difficult to seperate the two, I know, but we should at least try. I'm hoping this can be a civil thread.

Thanks in advance everyone!

Amy - Blessed wife to Jesse (the best dad in the world), mother of 10 on earth plus 8 in heaven.   PROUD to be a Catholic! : winner.jpg familybed2.gifhomeschool.gif

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#35 of 60 Old 09-15-2002, 03:16 PM
 
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Thanks Meiri. You illustrated exactly how I feel when a thread that was originally supposed to be about divierse views of the devil/evil turned into a hate-fest directed against CHristians and Christianity.

Words like "mean," "cruel," "chauvinistic," "absurd," and "silly" are simply not appropriate when discussing other peoples' faiths. Nor are condescending admonitions to "Look honestly at your Bibles" and "keep your thinking caps on." To make sweeping generalizations that all believers in a particular religion are sheeple and can't do any better because they simply "know no ther way" is extremely disrespectful and brimming with contempt.

Just imagine how a person of, say, the Hindu faith would feel if someone came into the Spirituality forum ridiculing Hinduism. Would you EVER write something like, "I find it ridiculous to pray to blue elephants and 8-legged idols....people in India must be really stupid to buy that crap, must be because they've never been exposed to rational thought..." No! That would be not only disrespectful and intolerant but also would display a very superficial understanding of the religion and would not give a person credit for having a mind. All I am asking is that people extend the same courtesy to Chrisians as is extended to the members of the other minority faiths here--like Islam and Hinduism.

Thanks.
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#36 of 60 Old 09-15-2002, 03:17 PM
 
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Sorry, Ekblad! I was typing as you were posting your admonition to keep on track.

As far as I'm concerned the matter has been laid to rest.

Back to Satan....
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#37 of 60 Old 09-15-2002, 03:30 PM
 
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In case anyone is interested, these are helpful, scholarly sites for learning more about biblical problems


Biblical Errancy

Skeptic's Annotated Bible
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#38 of 60 Old 09-15-2002, 03:43 PM
 
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It seems we have opened a can of worms. I have said repeatedly, as has Meiri, that people have every right to believe in whatever is their choice. Sorry about the links I just posted. I posted that before I read the latest posts.

If I find christianity to be "mean and scary", and others have been equally traumatized, well, that is just our exp.

Sorry to have gone OT.

My main complaint with Christianity is it's exclusivity (God's Chosen People), and all the fear mongering I read in the Bible, threats of hellfire for those who don't believe, and that ties back in to the original thread.
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#39 of 60 Old 09-15-2002, 04:03 PM
 
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Christians do not believe that they are God's Chosen People, they believe the Jews are God's Chosen.

While everyone knows the story of how he appeared as a snake in Genesis, I do not think the Bible is specific on whether or not Lucifer took Physical form during the temptations of Christ. It states he came to him but does not say whether or not he took form.

Not all those who wander are lost 
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#40 of 60 Old 09-15-2002, 04:46 PM
 
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Let me preface this by saying that no, I do not believe in the devil, at least in the way that I was taught as a child.

I think that regardless of our particular spiritual beliefs, many of us feel that the threat of the devil was used to manipulate us in the past. It is one thing to believe in the existence of the devil--quite another to put great fear into children. I had an uncle who came back from a missions trip full of tales of demon-possessed children. Anytime I had questions about religion (such as, "Will my friend who goes to church X go to Heaven, too?") I was warned that the devil was planting these thoughts in my head. Now, I think that questioning religion is important part of spirituality, but back then I felt terrified and powerless. About this time, I became irrationally afraid of the dark and would chant hymns to overcome my fear. It was too much for a five-year-old.

I would never suggest that a belief in the devil is somehow inferior or vice versa, but I do think that some caution should be used when presenting the concept, especially to children.

I couldn't feel at peace spiritually in a religion that includes the devil, but we all find peace in different places.
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#41 of 60 Old 09-15-2002, 11:52 PM
 
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As I stated before, I do believe in the Devil (aka Satan). As a child, I was never threatened with the Devil or Hell. I was never told to behave or I would go to Hell. I am a Christian because I love Christ, not because I fear the Devil. Whenever anybody asks me if so-and-so is going to Heaven, I respond that is not my responsibility or decision to make. I try to tend my own garden before pulling weeds from someone else's garden.

Before you were conceived, I wanted you. Before you were born I loved you. Before you were a minute old, I would have died for you. That is the miracle of life. ~Maureen Hawkins~
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#42 of 60 Old 09-16-2002, 05:26 AM
 
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No, I don't believe in the devil. I have always been an atheist (my parents grew up Lutheran (dad) and Mormon (mom) - sorry, off topic).
Anyway, I find it odd that when some people find out that I don't believe in god, they ask with much fear if I worship the devil. I have not met any atheists yet who believe in the devil. It seems logical to me that you would either believe in both (god and the devil) or neither.
From looking around on this thread and following some links posted on other threads in the spirituality board, I figured out that I am a secular humanist! Kinda neat to know that there are different types of atheism. And I think that telling someone I am a secular humanist will not be quite so offputting to people who do believe. Atheism (as a term) makes many people uncomfortable (not on this board but IRL) so I think that more education may occur from using the SH term.
Kirsten
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#43 of 60 Old 09-16-2002, 10:41 AM
 
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Any Christian who lives in fear of the Devil does not have a good understanding of Christ and the God whom they follow.

GOOD NEWS: The devil loses! God Wins!!!!! That is what Christ died for.

I am so sorry that some of you grew up with parents and/or a church that used scare tactics and abused scripture to control. It is unfortunate that the Biblical teachings about satan are misinterperted and used abusively. Please understand that this is not what CHRIST taught, and not what most Christians believe.

Satan's power is not the opposite of God! The devil is a created being and does not have "evil power" equaling the "good" of God. That would make him a god, and the Scriptures are clear that he is not. Satan is an angel created by God who had free will just like we do. He chose to use his free will for ill.

peace,
~b
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#44 of 60 Old 09-17-2002, 01:32 AM
 
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The Jewish view of "Brother S" (a nickname that may get me into trouble with some of you folks, but anyway ... ) is not that of this evil being, or whatever that stuff says.

It is that of an opposing attorney.

Kind of like when you go to the "Heavenly Court" and present your life, well, there's two sides to everything, right? So there's the opposing attorney.

(I'm trying to remember in the movie "Defending Your Life" who played the opposing attorney, she was great ...)

- Amy
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#45 of 60 Old 09-17-2002, 10:38 AM
 
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Yes, doesn't Satan mean "the accuser" in Hebrew?

But, while Satan may not Biblically be God's equal, I don't think many people understand it that way. How many times have we seen the image on TV, of a little angel on a person's right shoulder, and a little devil on the left? Whispering and getting equal time?
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#46 of 60 Old 09-17-2002, 04:39 PM
 
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I've heard that Amy.

Puts a whole different perspective on the issue of this fellow doesn't it?

He's just an angel with a job to do.(if you're of an Abrahamic faith that is.)

"What will you do once you know?"
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#47 of 60 Old 09-17-2002, 06:15 PM
 
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Quote:
... by DaryLLL
... But when the Jews rejected him and killed him ...
How do I put this off-topic comment gently ... but the Catholic Church and many other churches have very reasonably suggested that this is an incorrect assessment. The Romans killed him, thankyouverymuch.

And said churches have even made apologies, of sorts, to the Jewish people for having promulgated this canard over the centuries ...

Many, many, many years of hatred and torture and murder resulted from this specific statement, which is historically incorrect.

Go and learn.

Now back to our regularly scheduled thread ...

- Amy
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#48 of 60 Old 09-18-2002, 05:34 AM
 
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DaryLLL you said it yourself.

It was an ANGEL on one side and a devil on the other. Not God.

Not all those who wander are lost 
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#49 of 60 Old 09-18-2002, 11:21 AM
 
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Thank you Amy for setting the record stright on where the responsibility lies for killing Christ!!!

I believe that most Christian churches also teach that satan is the accuser and tempter of the brotherhood. It is t.v. and hollywood that have given him an image of the personification of evil. Hollywood is probably not the best place to take your spiritual teachings from.


peace,
~b
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#50 of 60 Old 09-18-2002, 11:48 AM
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I found some humor in looking at this post and at the time I looked at it (8am PST), it had received 666 views!!

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#51 of 60 Old 09-18-2002, 01:41 PM
 
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watchout...he just might get ya!!
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#52 of 60 Old 09-18-2002, 05:29 PM
 
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Now you all are just being silly!:

I think that image as personification of evil started way before TV and Hollywood though.

"What will you do once you know?"
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#53 of 60 Old 09-18-2002, 06:23 PM
 
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Totally off topic:

It has always seemed odd too me that any Christian would have a problem with anybody killing Jesus because if they hadn't we would all be going to hell.

And as far as I am concerned people didn't kill jesus. sin did.

The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

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#54 of 60 Old 09-18-2002, 07:03 PM
 
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That's a good point lilyka, I was going to interject that most evangelicals would sort of take personal responsibilty for the death of Jesus since it was our (everyone's) sin that he went to the cross willingly to die for.
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#55 of 60 Old 09-18-2002, 09:03 PM
 
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T

Yammer, perhaps I got on your case because the wording was along the lines of "they did it, that's why antisemitism," as opposed to "this lie is told by antisemites."

As far as the Temple priests, etc., what's your point? So it's okay to throw the blame there?

As a child I was called "Christ-killer" to my face, and hardly think that the fine points of who did what to whom was of any interest to the other kids shouting it (and throwing rocks) at us kids in the Jewish school playground.

Whatever.

Back to your topic, folks.



- Amy
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#56 of 60 Old 09-19-2002, 09:00 AM
 
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Who Killed Jesus?--For nearly 2,000 years many Christians have held Jews responsible for the death of Jesus. Ironically, they fail to realize that if their assertion is true they have proved Jesus to be a false prophet because he twice prophesied his death at the hands of Gentiles, not Jews. They need only read Mark 10:33-34 ("And they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles. And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him:....") and Matt. 20:19 ("And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him:....") to see they have refuted their own leader. Who, then, did kill Jesus according to the NT? Well, that depends on which gospel you are reading and in John's case, which verse. Since the narratives are too long to quote verbatim a synopsis of each is appropriate. Matthew says Roman soldiers aided by the multitude with some support from the chief priests, scribes, and elders were responsible (Matt. 27:24-44). Mark attributes his death to Roman soldiers aided by some chief priests directing the people and some scribes (Mark 15:11-31). Luke says the multitude, some chief priests, rulers, and soldiers were all involved (Luke 23:1-37). John (verses 19:15-18) is the only gospel clearly saying the Jews (the chief priests) crucified him ("Pilate saith unto them, shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar. Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led him away...)to Golgotha--Ed.) where they crucified him"). Yet, five verses later (#23) John says Roman soldiers were responsible ("Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus...."). No doubt Peter and Paul contributed to the confusion and helped generate anti-Semitic sentiment through such comments as those found in Acts 10:39 )"And we are witnesses to all that he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree") and 1 Thess. 2:14-15 ("...even as they have of the Jews: Who killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets") respectively. Majority vote would hold that Jesus was killed by Roman soldiers working in conjunction with some scribes and Jewish priests leading a multitude.

quoted from Dennis McKinsey's website
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#57 of 60 Old 09-19-2002, 09:55 AM
 
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Thank you so much for enlightening us all Daryl. I think we all got your views on Christ and His Church, but I seem to have missed what your views on this topic are....devil or no?


~b
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#58 of 60 Old 09-22-2002, 11:06 AM
 
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There was some talk about Lucifer being an angel of light, that wanted to be better than God, and fell to earth.

The Bible I've got didn't even have the name Lucifer in the index, so I did an online search and found him mentioned by name in the KJV.

He is mentioned in one, and only one place, Isaiah 14. He doesn't, to me, seem to be associated with Satan at all. He seems to be, after reading and rereading it several times, in several different translations, a generic oppressor of the Jews, any king who may have oppressed them. He thought to be better than "the gods," to take a seat on the mountain where the gods assemble, and to be better than the Most High of the gods.

But then he falls to earth and goes to Sheol and/or the pit. As Satan is thought to walk the earth, he can't be Lucifer, as L is in Sheol, surrounded by worms, as a decaying body.

So, the verse uses a polytheistic pantheon, isn't about Satan, but someone called a bright star, an earthly oppressor who thought he was pretty important. Seems like the popular understanding has moved pretty far from the original and fairly obscure text.
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#59 of 60 Old 09-23-2002, 01:40 AM
 
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Satan has many names. If you were confused by the isolated scriptures in Isaiah, I am not surprised, as it is a prophetic book. To get a better understanding you would have to allow other scriptures to enlighten those verses. A complete study of scriptures concerning Satan, under his various names, should help to clairify. Try using a Strong's unabridged concordance. Often the contridictions and confusion comes from taking verses out of context or isolating them from the "whole picture" that the entire Bible paints.

I hope you are not more interested in proving your point than in studying the scriptures. I hope I am wrong. I wish you well in your search for truth....I pray that you find God in a way that is relevant to you. God is love, and I pray that His love will encompass you on your path.

&
><>b
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#60 of 60 Old 09-26-2002, 10:48 AM
 
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Well, I don't really know what my point is. In this case my point is, it seems to refer to an earthly oppressor.

Going from verse and book to verse and book is one way to study the bible, I guess it is popular with christian study groups. I am trying to read the bible from my own unique standpoint, as my life has brought me to a certain place. I see it as a historical document, altho ancient, and mixed up (many different traditions), full of hyperbole, song, dreams, mythical beings, philosophy, cultural appropriation, etc, etc.

I don't know if you feel this way, but I have heard some christians feel that the bible is a big jigsaw puzzle, and they try to fit it all together into one picture.

Others, some christians and others, feel it is several different jigsaw puzzles, with many pieces missing. For now, that is one useful analogy for me, altho, who knows, I may change my mind, which I try to keep open.
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