Christianity and Birth Control - Where Are You? - Mothering Forums
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
#1 of 1 Old 01-02-2002, 05:21 PM - Thread Starter
Administrator
 
cynthia mosher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: An Arabian kingdom far far away
Posts: 28,886
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 81 Post(s)
Note: This is an archived topic. It is read-only. Mothering Boards
Spirituality Archive
Christianity & Birth Control Where Are You??


This topic was originally posted in this forum: Spirituality
Author Topic: Christianity & Birth Control Where Are You??
L&NsMaMa
Member posted 07-12-2001 09:37 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Where did the topic Christianity and Birth Control go? I searched for it and it will show the topic but you click on it and then you can't read it. What is wrong?
Janie


homebirthmama
Moderator posted 07-13-2001 07:48 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey I have been searching too....I think it is related to the board crash....there is a similar situation over in Talk Amongst Ourselves.....
Kathryne



mtravis
Member posted 07-13-2001 10:19 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bummer! I was in the middle of posting on that thread when the boards crashed. We can continue the discussion here, though, if anyone wants to. I already forgot what I was posting that day, though!


L&NsMaMa
Member posted 07-15-2001 07:07 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have been too exhausted to post this for the past few days and I am hoping that the boards don'ot crash this time. So, here goes.
Natural family planning and quiver full are not the same thing. From what I understand NFP is abstaining for a week or more during your cycle so as to avoid pregnancy. They don't believe in trying to avoid pregnancy. Some go so far as thinking it is wrong to try and create a pregnancy. They believe if it is God's will then they will have a child or children. Whether it be none or 20. They leave that up to the Lord.
That is what is the hardest thing for us. We have become quiver full since baby #2 was born 2 1/2 years ago. I thought I would be pregnant right off. I am now wondering if it isn't the Lord's will that I not have anymore.
I definitely think it would be easier to become quiver full minded at 35 rather than 20. FYI, I am 24. I do hope to have many, many children. But, maybe I won't.

Here is a quote from the quiver full website....who eagerly accept their children as blessings from God, and eschew birth control, natural family planning, and sterilization.
They use this scripture as the basis for this belief.
Ps 127:5 Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate. (KJV)
They use this scripture as the basis for not using NFP.
1Co 7:5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.
(KJV)

Just thought I would open this discussion up again.
Janie



mtravis
Member posted 07-16-2001 09:06 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Janie,
Thanks for starting us up again! I am still struggling with this issue every day.

DH does not agree with me (I am definitely QF-minded), and so right now we are just not making love at all. He says we can "do other stuff" until we resolve this issue, but I don't want to do *anything* until it is resolved. Am I being selfish?

To recap from the previous thread, he has agreed to not use any artificial b.c., but NFP is out for now because I am not menstruating yet. (BF-ing 6 mo old.) But even when NFP becomes a possibility, the problem I have with *that* is exactly the reason Janie stated as the difference between NFP and being Quiverfull. You have to abstain during the exact time of the month when your body *wants* to be intimate and is most *able* to be intimate. That, to me, seems ridiculous to ignore your God-given urges and desires.

Sigh. Everytime we try to talk about it it's a dead end. I don't think DH is really praying about it, and I called him on that. He admitted it and said he would. I am pretty miserable right now. We both are.



boysrus
Member posted 07-16-2001 09:41 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yep. WE're struggling too. We totally agree that quiverfull is God's will for us, we're having a hard time getting around our will. I was so sick this last pg and i am overwhelmed by 3 kids right now. My periods return at 6 or 7 months pp, and that is so soon to have another baby. We are planning to do NFP till Eli gets older, but I know that isn't God's plan. And I have been reading some about how God wants us to drink the cup of suffering. But I don't LIKE to suffer.


L&NsMaMa
Member posted 07-16-2001 06:37 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mtravis,
I think that falls under the scripture of submit yourself as unto the Lord. I don't always want to do what my dh asks of me. Whether it be sexually or otherwise but, I do it because, I know that it pleases the Lord. In return he is usually suprisingly open to what I want. When we were praying about being quiver full I was begging and pleading and being very manipulative. After a few months of that I just turned it all over to the Lord. He worked in dh's heart and dh started to see things the right way. Give it time. Submit to your dh's will. If it is the Lord's will for you to have more children then your dh will change his mind in God's time not your time.
I think that was(is) my biggest problem. I want instantaneous results for everything. When sometimes the best fruit comes with a long wait.
Janie


mtravis
Member posted 07-16-2001 07:10 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Janie,
I, too, want instantaneous results. I guess I should "wait on the Lord," right? Thanks for the encouraging words.
The truth is that *I* am nervous about having another so soon. But I always figured that God would either give me a child when I am ready, or give me a child and then *make* me ready. Does that make any sense?

I could go on all night about this...but DH is waiting to go to bed (to sleep), so I have to go. More later.



L&NsMaMa
Member posted 07-16-2001 07:31 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mtravis,
His grace is sufficient. I question that sometimes when I am pulling my hair out with just two but, then I look at women who have 12. He will lead you through anything as long as you are in His will.
Hope this helps,
Janie


papatimes3
Member posted 07-16-2001 08:04 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dh of boysrus here with a question:
If a wife submits to her husband but he is commiting sin and possibly inducing her to do the same, is that scriptural? "As unto the Lord" implies, to me, that the husband is following or at least seeking God's will, not his own. Gen.38 tells of Onan, who "spilled his (seed) on the ground to keep from producing offspring...."v.9 and paid with his life! It's deep water we're wading in here....


L&NsMaMa
Member posted 07-16-2001 09:27 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As unto the Lord implies to me this. If my husband asks me to do something that I am not all that thrilled about I do it anyway as if I were doing it for the Lord. If my husband asks something of me I just go to this scripture in Ephesians.
2 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
The key is in verse 24 when he says in EVERYTHING. As long as I am submitting to my husband as the Lord asks me to then I am in the will of God. I will not have to answer for the sin that my husband commits. Whether he is in the will of God is not the question. It isn't really submission if it is something that you want to do. The true test of a submissive wife is when it is something that she doesn't want to do.
I will give you this though. I do not have an overbearing husband. My husband helps me keep the house clean, he helps with the children, he endures my long nights on the internet, and he is my bestfriend. Therefore, I have never had to submit to an awful lot. But, I do believe that if I did have a bad husband that the Lord would give me grace to endure that trial.
It doesn't have a footnote that says that you don't have to submit if he isn't in the Lord's will. It says in EVERYTHING.
I didn't post this to get flamed. I am just telling you how we as a family interpret this scripture(and how we practice it).
I am not sure that you could actually classify birth control as a sin. I haven't really thought about it that much. I would need to confer with my husband and see what he has to say about it. He is much better read in scripture than I am.
All I can say is thank the Lord for BiblePro Online and Power Bible. Because, I know I couldn't quote those scriptures off the top of my head.
Janie

[This message has been edited by L&NsMaMa (edited 07-16-2001).]



suseyblue
Member posted 07-16-2001 10:51 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To use the poetry of Psalms to enforce the issue of er, issue seems like a misuse of scripture to me (jmho)... I don't smash the heads of Babylonian babies on the rocks, either.
Hyperbole is part of eastern poetry. To be literal when the author (and the Holy Spirit guiding his, or his scribe's pen) is not, is not, I think, showing discernment.

fwiw, i'm using nfp right now, as I got my period 8 weeks after Sam was born (yes, exclusively bf!) & I feel it would be a selfish, stupid sin for me to get pregnant carelessly while he is so very small (not to mention, to give my c-sec a *little* time to heal).

I'd love more babies, but being 38 with a newborn, I know I am very blessed to have 2 kids already, & will be extremely fortunate if in a year or two I can have another. Or even another! But does God require me to keep popping them out till menopause?

There is nothing I think I would've liked more than to have had 6 or 7 kids (I always liked the 'quiver full' psalm, but not as dogma!), but God has made it clear (by my not having more than 2 kids at the age of 38+) that that was not his plan for me.

I would never abort if I did concieve more children than I had hoped for, but I am not going to feel like less of a Christian for not (as I see it, in my life) abandoning that part of the responsibility for conception that IS in my hands.

I hope not to offend, but just to share that there are many interpretations of the Bible, and it pains me to see unfortunate ones cause people anguish I don't think is necessary. The gospel is 'good news'.

I am in favor of people seeking the will of the Holy Spirit in this one, & putting less stock in the opinions of spiritual leaders (such as Rick & Jan Hess). Spiritual leaders have been known to be wrong.

btw, I was always pretty clear that Onan's sin was not in contraception per se, but in being unwilling to raise up a child for his bro. Out of curiousity, if your dh dropped dead before you had a son, would you insist upon marrying his brother? (If he refused, you must spit in his eye & pull off his sandal, & he would forever be known as 'the man who had the sandal pulled off of his foot'! And it would be the name of his house forevermore!)

Gotta love Tamar's resourcefulness: "Kill the harlot!" "Hey Judah, where's my goat?"

And since this has become a regular epistle already, let me add that while I may technically 'submit', I reserve the option to educate my husband if I feel that he is wrong. If I can convince him of that, when I am positive I have better info (and if I couldn't, he'd still be an agnostic instead of the Messianic Jewish leader of my household), then following his lead is not so hard.

For heaven's sake, if I know he is right & I just 'don't wanna', I appreciate the leadership & encouragement.

It's not rocket science; I'm glad that with our many trials & day to day problems, our spiritual lives are in agreement. God has certainly blessed me there.

Shalom! Suse (who is starting to feel a really streppy & feverish from exhaustion- I hope I don't read this tomorrow- if I can crawl out of bed- & goggle at what turned out to be unintelligible ravings. Please, again, if somehow I have offended, forgive me... it was not my intention.)

[This message has been edited by suseyblue (edited 07-16-2001).]



merebear
Member posted 07-17-2001 04:58 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am really enjoying reading all of the thoughtful posts in this "resurrected" thread. Can I offer the Catholic Christian perspective to your wise words?
The reason that we view NFP as acceptable is because it is making use of the naturally occuring periods of infertility that God so graciously designed into a woman's body. He could have made us like a man... able to get pregnant at any time. He could have made it impossible to discern when that infertile period is. Instead there are easily recognized symptoms to observe. If a couple unites physically during the infertile time then they are not defrauding the act.

That's not to say that a couple *has* to use NFP. The quiverfull mindset is viewed as a blessing, even a special calling. But some couples have serious reason to avoid pregnancy and our dear Lord gives us grace and reason to discern those times and then a morally permissable way to stay open to life.

I am 6 months post-partum right now with a 20 month old (and a 4 year old and a 6 year old). A year ago I became pregnant at 5 months post-partum. We feel so strongly (after much prayer) that we need a break before another baby that we have abstained for 5 months. NFP is confusing for me in the post-partum time, but I've had one cycle now and I think by tomorrow night I will be in phase III.

Our church teaches that a woman must not commit a sin, even if her husband so desires. If a woman stood by while her husband killed a store clerk then she would be convicted as an accessory to a crime. If she is guilty of breaking one of man's laws, how much more so should she not break God's laws. Sin is sin, regardless of who asks you to do it. Children should obey their parents, but not unto sin.

Thanks for the interesting discussion!





k'smami
Member posted 07-17-2001 07:03 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by suseyblue:

I hope not to offend, but just to share that there are many interpretations of the Bible, and it pains me to see unfortunate ones cause people anguish I don't think is necessary. The gospel is 'good news'.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Amen.





L&NsMaMa
Member posted 07-17-2001 08:19 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If my husband died I wouldn't have to worry about marrying any brother...he doesn't have one
In all seriousness though. It is like I said before. These are our convictions, this is how we live. We believe in quiver-full, we believe in a literal translation of the King James Bible, I practise submission, I dress modestly(i.e. dresses only). But, you have to see that these are OUR convictions, and OUR choices. I would have to say that we have prayed(are praying) about the Lord's will for our lives. This is the way that we as a family have been lead.
We believe that it would be a sin for us not to practise quiver full. Because, we have been lead to do so. And, I won't go into the details but, we have been strongly lead this way. I also believe that my recent infertility may be a chastisement from the Lord because, of my unwillingness to conform to his will for my life.
These are my convictions. I don't mean to offend anyone with them but, I refuse to compromise them either.
As for Rick and Jan Hess, we were convicted over quiver full before we knew what the name of this mind set was. We just thought it was funny that there actually was a label put on it.
Janie

cynthia mosher is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off