What is the "reason for the season"?? - Page 2 - Mothering Forums
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#31 of 58 Old 12-12-2002, 01:50 AM
 
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mamasoleil: You're completely right. Hence the word "seems" in there. I know not everyone is happy and enjoying this time of year. But, a lot of ppl are. I'm trying to stay positive (but not so much that I'm delusional!).

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#32 of 58 Old 12-12-2002, 01:53 AM
 
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For sure Chaka, not trying to give you a hard time...
Just something I've noticed...
Glad you're keeping yourself nice and positive...I think you're rubbing off on me!
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#33 of 58 Old 12-12-2002, 01:54 AM
 
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KeysMama: I get it. Thanks for explaining! I can understand your train of thought.
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#34 of 58 Old 12-12-2002, 04:30 AM
 
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Just a coincidence?

December 25th is Christmas.
Kislev 25th is the first night of Chanuka.

- Amy
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#35 of 58 Old 12-12-2002, 09:33 AM
 
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If you'd like a way to "connect" Ramadan with the Christian Christmas, we Muslims believe the Qur'an to be the revealed Word of Allah (swt). We also believe that Jesus (pbuh), son of Mary, is also Allah's Word, as Allah said only "Be," and he was. As KeysMama said, two miracles. I'll leave the differences out of the discussion, because we mostly know what they are and that OTHER thread made them, and our responses to them, all too clear...

Anyway, while light and darkness have their roles in determining when the day is through, that is really all I see. The movement of the sun has a role every day in Islam, determining when the prayer time has shifted to the next. And Ramadan, as CF said , moves up about 10 days or so each year.

For me, the season of Ramadan is one of prayer, looking inward, and thankfulness and self-improvement. This should manifest itself in generosity and kindness and peace. Eid-ul-Fitr, the holiday marking the beginning of the month following Ramadan, is one where we are thankful for the opportunity to have fasted and prayed again this year, and we think on how we can carry the spirit of the season through the next year. Ramadan is a deeply personal experience for Muslims.

That said, this time of year, I do look forward to the lengthening of the days, and counting down to warmer temps. I have never been a fan of winter, and living in the north is a challenge for me.

And, for me, the celebration fo Christmas is about tolerance and family. Because I do not share my family's faith, I have to work hard to balance respect and love for my parents and siblings with a desire to worship what I have found to be my Truth. I wish them the love of my holiday season, and I hope to see them happy during theirs.
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#36 of 58 Old 12-13-2002, 12:43 AM
 
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According to many anthropologists and theologians, Jesus was actually born in the spring- around April, most likely. They say this because of the passage about the shepherds being out with their sheep. The only reason that the shepherds stayed in the fields overnight with sheep was when they were birthing- which happens in the springtime.

The Early Chuch moved the celebration of Jesus birth to the Winter to compete with the Mystery Traditions of Osiris, Dionysus, Attis, and Mithras (all divine Son/Gods born to virgins, BTW) and make it easier to compete with Pagan faiths and convert people.

For more info, read "The Jesus Mysteries" by Tim Freke
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#37 of 58 Old 12-13-2002, 04:04 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by amyrpk
Just a coincidence?

December 25th is Christmas.
Kislev 25th is the first night of Chanuka.

- Amy
good question. I never knew that. My ignorance of the Jewish calender is astounding. I have always found it interesting that the Christian designation of when Easter should fall is so blatently pagan when it would have made so much sense to use the Jewish calender.

Easter is the first Sunday after the first full moon after the Vernal Equinox. Pagan as all get out, huh? Since the chain of events leading to the first Easter started on Passover why not say Easter is three days after Passover?

So, was the refusal to use the Jewish calender to designate Easter a mark of anti-Semitism at the time (and hey, have some Easter ham!) or was it simply matter of wanting to always celebrate Easter on a Sunday?

When is Passover?
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#38 of 58 Old 12-13-2002, 04:16 PM
 
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My Reason for the Season this year is so delightful. Just as our family is celebrating the birth of Jesus (even if just a symbolic date by which to do it), we are simultaneously celebrating the impending birth of our first son any day now.

There is joy overflowing this season!

Now, if the little critter would just COME!
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#39 of 58 Old 12-13-2002, 10:58 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by HipMomma3913


The Early Chuch moved the celebration of Jesus birth to the Winter to compete with the Mystery Traditions of Osiris, Dionysus, Attis, and Mithras (all divine Son/Gods born to virgins, BTW) and make it easier to compete with Pagan faiths and convert people.

For more info, read "The Jesus Mysteries" by Tim Freke
hipmomma--

I love you! I have been obsessing about that book and Jesus and the Lost Goddess for weeks, and nobody has understood me!

But wasn't it Mithra who was also visited by 3 shepherds at his birth? Don't know if they were watching their flocks by night tho.
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#40 of 58 Old 12-13-2002, 11:07 PM
 
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Golly, I feel so loved!

I'm not sure about Mithras and the Shepherds. Off the top of my head, I think that you're right, but I am not positive. I will see if I can find out. I'm pretty sure that Mithras either WAS a shepherd or was a patron of Shepherds. I will post here if I find anything out.

Jesus and the Lost Goddess is great- The Jesus Mysteries is the authors other book, have you read it?

Also, for anyone coming out of a Christian path, I HIGHLY recommend "Stealing Jesus" by Bruce Bawer- it is Awesome reading (off topic, but what the hey)
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#41 of 58 Old 12-14-2002, 04:42 PM
 
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Passover is the fourteenth of Nisan

The first night of Passover is always a full moon.

It is ALMOST always the first full moon after the spring equinox. Variantions occur b/c the Jewish calendar is a lunar calendar w/ adjustments made for the solar year. Every month = a moon cycle, and then every three years is Jewish leap year in which Jews add not just a day, but a whole extra month!

The Eastern Orthodox Christians use the Jewish Passover as a calendar guide for their celebration of Easter. That is why Easter for the Eastern Orthodox is sometimes in May. Easter for them cannot take place w/o Passover occurring first.

Lent is forty days before Easter. It begins after FAt Tuesday w/Ash Wednesday followed by forty days of pentinence and fasting of some kind.

Purim, a celebration similar to Fat Tuesday, is a month (lunar cycle) before Passover, and is followed by a period of cleansing the home environs and then fasting immediately before Passover.

All of these seasonal celebrations have roots in the pagan traditions that existed before.

I agree that Christmas must have been a winter celebration to brighten the lives of the people in the dark northerly lands during the long, LONG nights there in December-January. Coupled w/ tales of virgin birth, it helped the ancient peoples of the northern lands have hope that anything is possible, especially the return of the SUN which is so low in the sky at this time of the year.
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#42 of 58 Old 12-14-2002, 05:24 PM
 
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I was going to stay out of this thread, so as not to seem like I was being unseasonal like and negative. I really dislike the idea that there is a "holiday season" now. There is christmas. The major holiday of the christian religion. Chanukah, in comparison is very much a minor holiday. Minor. Firstly, it (as well as purim) was created after the giving of the torah, because of events that happened in history. For jews, I would only call the month of Tishrei the closest we have to a "holiday season" as that is the time of the "high holidays" followed ten days later by one of the "shalosh regalim" - the three major holidays of our year (chanukah not being one of them).
Now that everyone is annoyed at me already I will add that I completey diagree with This:
Quote:
Originally posted by applejuice
Purim, a celebration similar to Fat Tuesday, is a month (lunar cycle) before Passover, and is followed by a period of cleansing the home environs and then fasting immediately before Passover.

All of these seasonal celebrations have roots in the pagan traditions that existed before.
Ultimately everyone will believe what they choose, but I assure you that jewish holidays are not based on pagan anything.

Are you saying that the events in Persia, which purim are based on never happened?

-BelovedBird

Mom of 5 boys- 13, 10, 8, 2 : and newbie Aug. 24th, '09 . babywearing advocate . Cook, baker, homemaker, wife to a man with another woman's kidney (live altruistic, unknown donor).
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#43 of 58 Old 12-14-2002, 06:06 PM - Thread Starter
 
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BB, I don't think everyone is annoyed with you?? I know I'm not. I'm glad you shared your point of view about Chanukkah.
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#44 of 58 Old 12-14-2002, 11:47 PM
 
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Kama, ... is this off-topic? :

Quote:
... by kama'aina mama
... was the refusal to use the Jewish calender to designate Easter a mark of anti-Semitism at the time (and hey, have some Easter ham!) or was it simply matter of wanting to always celebrate Easter on a Sunday? ...
Actually it seems to me that it was not so much anti-Semitism per se as wanting to distance the new Christian religion from Judaism, a separation thing.

- Amy
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#45 of 58 Old 12-15-2002, 01:02 AM
 
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BB, I'm nowhere near annoyed, but respectfully, there is More than just Christmas going on even if you leave out Chanukah, the occasional Eid, or Diwali(which I think actually comes in November?).

For our family Christmas is a secular American-cultural celebration of Giving. For me the sacredness occurs on the Solstice when the Sun "returns" and the days start slowly getting longer even as the cold season settles in in earnest and deepens. That is NOT Christmas. That does occur at this time of year.


"What will you do once you know?"
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#46 of 58 Old 12-15-2002, 01:09 AM
 
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I dunno... what was the topic again?

I just got kind of caught up in the idea of how various groups, Christians in particular, decide when to hold various celebrations. I also find it fascinating that while Christianity is clearly rooted in Judiasm many of our specific holy days are very easy to trace to Pagan roots, at least calender-wise. So I found myself curious. Is that because of the strong attempts to court the Pagan populations when these dates were being codified or is it a rejection of the Jews.

Beloved Bird, thank you. I only get annoyed with people when they have wisdom I could use and they withold it from me!
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#47 of 58 Old 12-15-2002, 08:19 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Meiri
BB, I'm nowhere near annoyed, but respectfully, there is More than just Christmas going on even if you leave out Chanukah, the occasional Eid, or Diwali(which I think actually comes in November?).

For our family Christmas is a secular American-cultural celebration of Giving. For me the sacredness occurs on the Solstice when the Sun "returns" and the days start slowly getting longer even as the cold season settles in in earnest and deepens. That is NOT Christmas. That does occur at this time of year.

You are right Meiri. I did not mean to ignore the Solstice, or Eid *or any other holiday*. I meant that when the majority say the "holiday season" they mean christmas anyway, and "seasons greeting" cards are holiday themed. Why does it have to be a season of holidays? Why can't each holiday have its own identity? My point was really just about how annoyed I get by the mistaken belief by some that chanukah is just the jewish version (replacement?) of christmas, that its importance in judaism is equal to christmas' importance within christianity. I do not know how muslim's feel about the season thing. Truthfully, I think that the "season" in the majority of American minds does not include Eid even if the existance of Chanukah occurs to them. Sostice just *is* as it is the acknowledgement of an occurance in nature, right? And the chrismas tree and probably other stuff are based on it anyway, so whether it is aknowledged or not it is part of the season. I was talking about the perspective of the majority that believe that right now is the holiday season.
I haven't had my coffee yet so I hope this makes sense.

-BelovedBird

Mom of 5 boys- 13, 10, 8, 2 : and newbie Aug. 24th, '09 . babywearing advocate . Cook, baker, homemaker, wife to a man with another woman's kidney (live altruistic, unknown donor).
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#48 of 58 Old 12-15-2002, 09:22 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by kama'aina mama
Christianity is clearly rooted in Judiasm many of our specific holy days are very easy to trace to Pagan roots, at least calender-wise. So I found myself curious. Is that because of the strong attempts to court the Pagan populations when these dates were being codified or is it a rejection of the Jews.
Actually, kama, the theory I have heard is neither one nor the other of your ideas.

At the time Christianity (or Xtianity, X=Chi, Greek letter signifying Christ) was invented, the whole area surrounding the Mediterranean Sea was rather unified (under the Greeks in a process called Hellenization) by trade and immigration, and the blending of cultures resulted. Maybe the original melting pot? Alexandria, Egypt was the center of education, libraries and where most philosophers met. Xtianity was "syncretized" out of both pagan and Jewish roots, rejecting neither, but welcoming people of both faiths and all ethnicities.

You can see the roots of Jesus' ancestry in the obviously confliciting geneologies given for him in Matt and Luke. He is said to be both a descendant of David (Jewish messiah) and born of a virgin by a god (as the pagan godmen of the prevalent Mystery religions were said to be). Every town has it's own pagan dying and resurrecting godman. One scholar I read said he had 600 names. The more common ones were Osiris, Dionysus, Mithra, and Attis.

This religion was meant to encourage the Jews to look, not for a political leader (messiah) who would physically return them to their homeland, as that didn't seem to be working out under Greek and Roman rule (understatement), but a liberation of the spirit instead, thru the symbolic myth of the godman, whose death frees us from death. But this religion did not catch on with the Jews, even tho it was invented by a group of Jews over a couple centuries (the Therapeutae and the Essenes). The Ebionites were a group of Jews which did adopt it, but the version of Xtianity they practiced was seen as heretical and eventually they were wiped out, I believe around 300-400 CE.

Jesus' (and the Church's) "proper" history was canonized (made into the bible as we know it today) in around 300 AD, but there are a lot more stories about his life and ideas available in the gnostic texts. Many people don't have this information, because it was brutally supressed in the "Dark Ages" and is still being rediscovered today.

Now, were the Jews rejected by the Xtians in other ways? Certainly, and most horribly.

see here:

pagan origins of the Christ myth
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#49 of 58 Old 12-15-2002, 09:16 PM
 
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Jesus and the Lost Goddess is great- The Jesus Mysteries is the authors other book, have you read it?
Thank you , thank you, thank you !!
I'm gonna read the other one you mentionned too
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#50 of 58 Old 12-15-2002, 11:33 PM
 
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let me know what you think of it when you're done. The authors are catholic, and in the intro they said that they really struggled with whether or not to publish (this was before Lost Goddess) the book, since it was so contradictory to everything they had thought was true. The premise is that Jesus is nothing less than the Jewish interpretation of the traditional Dying/Ressurecting Pagan God.


Gee, does that surprise anyone? <heehee>
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#51 of 58 Old 12-15-2002, 11:50 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Darylll, I see your making ample use of that link, lol.
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#52 of 58 Old 12-16-2002, 04:23 PM
 
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HipMomma--

Actually, it did surprise me when I read it. Yes, I've read both books. I knew some of the stuff, but did not realize the scope, or ever really give credence to the thought that Jesus, whether god or man, actually may not have ever really lived. I just love those books. I had a wonderful dream of victory one night, after I had finally taken in the scope of what they were talking about.

Now, my 16yo dd wants me to get a nativity set and last year I would've never considered it. but now I can get one, and imagine it as a baby Mithra, If I want to!

But I am b/c no one here ever seemed to take me up on my rec of those books, but as soon as YOU did, goosefeather said she would go get them.

Now I am reading The Other Bible, a collection of Jewish Pseudepigrapha, Xtian apocrypha, Kaballah, Visionary Wisdom texts, the Dead Sea Scrolls and gnostic gospels. Mmmm... heretical goodness!
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#53 of 58 Old 12-16-2002, 05:31 PM
 
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Mmmmmm. heretical goodness....

LOL- I'll have to remember that!

Check out "The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold" by Archaya S. Its not exciting reading- fine type and big words, but she has some info to add to TJM too.
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#54 of 58 Old 12-16-2002, 06:10 PM
 
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Been reflecting on this all week and it came to me more clearly yesterday. Of course it's not a bad thing to celebrate any abundance one might have by getting gifts for loved ones, but a big part of the reason for the season is to share that abundance to others beyond our own families.
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#55 of 58 Old 12-16-2002, 09:35 PM
 
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Quote:
But I am b/c no one here ever seemed to take me up on my rec of those books, but as soon as YOU did, goosefeather said she would go get them.
:LOL:LOL I am so sorry DaryLLL :LOL
What you don't know is that I remember you talking about the Jesus Mysteries and I had written it down on a tiny scrap of paper to put in my wallet , ready for my next trip to the bookstore ...but, being the well-organized person that I am, I couldn't find the darn paper anywhere. Now being also a very lazy unorganized person I didn't have the willpower to go read everything again to find the title :LOL

So when I saw the title, it cliqued...
So I thank you a little bit more than I thanked HipMomma

And I was smarter this time : I went to Amazon and put the three books on my wish list

So Thanks, thanks, thanks AND thanks to U !! :LOL
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#56 of 58 Old 12-16-2002, 10:08 PM
 
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I feel better now!

Happy reading!
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#57 of 58 Old 12-17-2002, 01:10 AM
 
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Thats me- the human reminder note


Be sure to let us know what you think!
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#58 of 58 Old 12-17-2002, 10:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by KeysMama


The Ramadan celebration period According to the Holy Quran:
is a time one may eat and drink at any time during the night "until you can plainly distinguish a white thread from a black thread by the daylight: then keep the fast until night"
---again the universal celebration of light and dark


Peace
Those are really good intentions that I admire Keysmama. However the Ramadhan celebration has absolutely nothing to do with the seasons or light and dark. The passage that you quoted is only describing how Muslims (who at the time didnt have advanced astrology or clocks) could decide when it was time to stop and start eating during the month of Ramadhan. Islamic holidays are based on a lunar calendar, so actually during a persons lifetime Ramadhan will be celebrated over all the seasons because it moves back about 11 days each month. My husband can recall fasting during the summer, spring, winter and fall as over his life span ramadhan has fallen over all those seasons.

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