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Old 12-16-2002, 08:38 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Old 12-16-2002, 08:46 PM
 
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Those of us who do practice bris milah also do learn about karbanot with the fervent hope of fulfilling that mitzva as well at the time of the third beit hamikdash.

-BelovedBird

Mom of 5 boys- 13, 10, 8, 2 : and newbie Aug. 24th, '09 . babywearing advocate . Cook, baker, homemaker, wife to a man with another woman's kidney (live altruistic, unknown donor).
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Old 12-16-2002, 09:27 PM
 
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BelovedBird - Actually, many of us who practice Brit Milah along with the other mitzvot do not anticipate the resumption of korbanot (sacrifices) in the time of the messiah. (I follow Rav Kook on this.) Let's not change the subject though.

Ooka - I'm sure you can find many Jews who don't follow Brit Milah, but you won't find any legitimate "Jewish reasons not to circ" because Jewish law is pretty clear on this point. If you are "just beginning to practice", I recommend you speak to your Rabbi about your questions.

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Old 12-16-2002, 10:45 PM
 
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http://www.circumcision.org/question.htm

http://www.nocirc.org/symposia/fourth/goodman.html

http://www.noharmm.org/rationaljew.htm

http://www.circumstitions.com/Jewish.html

http://www.nocirc.org/symposia/second/moss.html

I am not Jewish but all these links are about Jews who do not circumcise and why they do not. I hope they help!!

OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
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Old 12-16-2002, 10:52 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Old 12-16-2002, 11:06 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Old 12-16-2002, 11:06 PM
 
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ooka,
I, for one, am glad you asked. I am not a Jew (not yet, at least) but am married to one and intend to raise DD as one. I want to know the same thing! I struggled with the circ issue for 9 mos and was really relieved to have a daughter just so I didn't have to decide about it.

Please stay out from under your rock! Hopefully we can get some real help from someone here
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Old 12-17-2002, 03:32 AM
 
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ooka,

Please pardon the intense reaction. MotheringDotCom is a wonderful place, but on the issue of bris milah we Jews are at the receiving end of all sorts of insults here, including being called abusers, mutilators, and monsters. And that's just on the public boards.

Anyway, I'm not sure what you're looking for. If you're looking for a Jewish justification not to circumcise, you won't find one.

If you're looking for Jews who justify for themselves their own decisions not to circumcise, the no-circ groups and links will do fine for you.

If your purpose is for Jewish mamas who don't circ to give you khizuk (strength) in your decision, that's fine, and I'm sure you'll get that. But understand that those responses are incompatible with religious explanations.

If you're asking why are there all these laws that Jews seemingly don't follow, and then we insist on following that "barbaric" practice ... then that's a simple misreading of what Jews do and don't do.

And BTW there's no such thing as a "good Jew" or a "bad Jew," that's all nonsense that people put into your head. All we can do is learn. As far as being "confident in your Jewishness to explain circ'g your son or not," you shouldn't have to explain anything to anybody.

OTOH If you're looking to instigate an argument with observant Jews or Jews for whom the practice of bris milah is an important connection to their Judaism, then I won't oblige.

And I'm not going to try to convince you of reasons for a bris. A local Chabad rabbi could do it better ... (and everybody has local Chabad rabbis, they're everywhere ...).

Forgive my presumptuousness (sp?) but BelovedBird's point I think was that we don't practice animal sacrifice because the Temple in Jerusalem no longer exists, not because it's no longer a part of the religious tradition. Our daily prayer services correspond directly to those sacrificial services ...

Anyway, sorry for the virtual verbal excess. Just a sensitive topic around here ...



- Amy
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Old 12-17-2002, 07:18 AM - Thread Starter
 
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oh forgt it, i'm probably getting myself into worse trouble everytime i open my big keyboard
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Old 12-17-2002, 08:42 AM
 
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Quote:
Forgive my presumptuousness (sp?) but BelovedBird's point I think was that we don't practice animal sacrifice because the Temple in Jerusalem no longer exists, not because it's no longer a part of the religious tradition. Our daily prayer services correspond directly to those sacrificial services ...
Yes, presisely Amy. You said everything that I need to say on the subjest here.

Except.

I am sorry for scaring you Ooka. I was trying to tell you the facts, as I see them.

and

Here is a link for the chabad site. There is a search there. Type in your zip they will tell you where the nearest rabbi is.http://www.chabad.org/

-BelovedBird

Mom of 5 boys- 13, 10, 8, 2 : and newbie Aug. 24th, '09 . babywearing advocate . Cook, baker, homemaker, wife to a man with another woman's kidney (live altruistic, unknown donor).
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Old 12-17-2002, 01:03 PM
 
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Ooka, I'm sorry you felt my post was disrespectful.

I hope you find what you're looking for.

Dandelion, who was just giving these boards another try
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Old 12-17-2002, 01:12 PM
 
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Okay, now, this will probably get me into a heap o' trouble, but I'm feeling rather incautious today, so here goes.

ooka, according to your post, if I'm understanding your family situation correctly, there is no halakhic reason (that is, reason according to Jewish law) for you to circumcise your son.

Your mother was not Jewish. She went to church, right? Only your father was Jewish. Is that correct?

Then technically your son does not need a bris milah. There is no issue here.

And if your father suddenly cares, then perhaps ... well, I won't go there. Sorry. But you get my point, I think (hope) ...

I say this very gently, with no disrespect for your spiritual search intended at all. If you are still searching in Judaism, that's great, and keep searching. But at this point, if I'm understanding your post and your family relationships correctly, then your son is not in any way required to have a bris milah.





- Amy
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Old 12-17-2002, 02:12 PM
 
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Celestial, not to answer for anyone else, but ooka never said she was a convert. She just said her father was Jewish. Her mother apparently isn't. So according to halakha (Jewish law) neither is ooka or her son.

So no bris is necessary.

And if a boy or man converts and they are intact, then they are circumcised as part of the bris. (I know men who've done this as adults.) And if they are previously circumcised, then the ritual drop of blood is drawn. (I know men who've had this done, too.)

And if that were to happen, it would be the boy's/man's choice, not ooka's. So she doesn't need to deal with it.

- Amy
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Old 12-17-2002, 03:16 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Old 12-17-2002, 03:24 PM
 
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Quote:
... by Celestial
... What about a female convert? How does that work? ...
Not an expert on gerus (conversion) by any means, but Celestial, bris is not what makes a boy a Jew.

A male convert becomes a Jew through the mikva (ritual immersion), just like a female convert does. Then they're Jews.

Bris is part of a male Jew's life, and as such is part of the male conversion process.

There is no corollary for women. Not relevant. Not even a question.

If ooka has daughters? What do you mean, what will happen? Same thing that happens when anyone who isn't Jewish has daughters: they aren't Jewish. If those daughters want to convert to Judaism, then the same as any other woman who converts to Judaism, they talk to a rabbi, learn a lot, talk to more rabbis, go to the mikva and then are Jewish.

Not sure why it's even a question.

And ooka, those are all questions better directed to a rabbi.

And I've never heard of anyone checking a bar mitzva boy's penis, ladies. It doesn't happen.

But I'm also not understanding why a child that is not Jewish would have a bar mitzva in the first place. :

edited to add that I just reread ooka's post and saw the "uncirc'd son of a converted mother" part. Assuming that means ooka's converted to Judaism, then that's a question for a rabbi. If ooka converted before becoming pregnant, then that's not an issue. A convert to Judaism is a Jew. But if the conversion was after he was born ... anyway, a question for a rabbi, for certain.

- Amy
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Old 12-17-2002, 05:39 PM
 
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As a child convert, I will answer what Amy left out. A child must convert if his or her mother was not jewish at his/her birth if that child is to be raised as a jew. Otherwise, they are not jewish, the mother's status has no baring on that of the child.

-BelovedBird

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Old 12-18-2002, 02:53 AM
 
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Hi ooka,
Nice to see you 'round here again...It's been a long time...
I am Jewish. My Dh is not. My son is not circumcised. Nor would he be if my DH had been Jewish.
I think my father questioned our decision. But I felt stongly about this issue before I ever married, or had a child. I knew if I had a son that I would not choose to do that. I also do not vaccinate, or interfere with his beautiful body, and immune system that nature gave him.
I am not active in the Jewish community at all, for me it is my culture more than my religion. We had a Buddhist wedding, in fact. I am not fond of all the patriarchal malarchy that goes with traditional Judaism. It rubs me the wrong way, personally speaking.
I have no problem internally regarding my decision. I am happy that he is intact, and happy.
It doesn't matter if your mother is not Jewish. Or if she is. If you feel you are Jewish then you are. And you can still practice what you like and not circumcise.
Feel free to pm me if you want to discuss this further.
Take care,
laura
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Old 12-18-2002, 04:01 AM
 
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... It doesn't matter if your mother is not Jewish. Or if she is. If you feel you are Jewish then you are. And you can still practice what you like and not circumcise ...
Just a little inflammatory, that.

Because if she converted, she's Jewish.

And anyone can practice whatever they want and circumcise or not how they please.

Jews believe in free will, ya' know.





- Amy
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Old 12-18-2002, 10:15 PM
 
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Sorry Amy, but I don't see how that is inflammatory. I don't disagree with anything you just wrote. I was merely trying to say that whether or not she is "official" as in her mother being Jewish or not...if she feels in her heart to be a Jewish then she is. And yes, anyone can be anything and choose to circ or not.
I don't get why that was inflammatory.
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Old 12-18-2002, 10:27 PM
 
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There is also the point to be made that in the US the reform and reconstructionists accept someone as jewish if either parent is.

Although I know from personal experience that this is a sore subject among some. Not speaking about anyone here, just that I've been privy to arguments by people about this issue.
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Old 12-19-2002, 12:22 AM
 
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OOKA!!! I did not know you were Jewish - so you were raised Jewish by your dad but your mom was not Jewish and didn't convert before you were born? if so then "legally" (halachically) you're not Jewish but you can convert or you can attend a Reform or Reconstructionist synagogue. your son being circ'ed or not is not what makes him Jewish it is whether his mother is. there are jews who don't circ... but I am not one of them. I am outspoken against RIC but my sons' brises were among the most beautiful moments of my life.

I'm Andrea - I have three boys - 12 year old twins & an 11 year old

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Old 12-19-2002, 02:50 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Old 12-19-2002, 03:51 AM
 
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I am Jewish.

I circumcised my three sons.

No problem.

They all had religious training and bar mitzvahs, also.

What really surprised me was after I had my first ds, every Jewish person I knew TOLD me I had to circ my son. NO matter how observant these people were, they all had what to say about a decision I was to make for my son. A desion that I consider intensely personal and monumental.

Each day a Jewish person makes decisions about their observances of the mitzvot. One can pray, eat kosher food, go to synagogue. Most of these nosy people did not keep kosher, never went to synagogue and even celebrated Christmas in their homes. A circumcision is a decision made by a parent for his/her child. The child does not decide it.

People who are not observant should mind their own business; they should look in the mirror and decide how observant they are and leave a poor, new mother alone.

A circ is done in one day. But living as a Jew is done for a lifetime. There is too much emphasis on this one - shot- event when there is a lifetime of simchas and mitzvot to live.

Shalom

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."
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Old 12-19-2002, 05:09 AM
 
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... by ooka
... i seemed to have opened up a whole other can of worms with this thread, like whether the mothering community would recognize my status as a valid jew
i know hitler would have, he pretty nearly killed one grandfather, the other one narrowly escaped just before the war
well, whatever, i really shouldnt have come here to ask ...
Excuse me?

Reread the thread. The question was looking for support for not circ'g your son. And it seemed that the maternal grandmother was not Jewish, and the grandfather was. It wasn't clear that there was any conversion, or that the mother ... you ... might be Jewish. Which means there's no reason to circumcise. Right there was your support, your reason not to circ. That's what you got. Nobody insulted or insisted that your conversion might not be valid.

My only complaint was with Lunarmama's muddying the nonexistent issue with misinformation with the "if you feel, then you are" thing. If you feel Catholic, you are Catholic? Doesn't work there, either. If you feel Mormon, you are Mormon? No, everyone's got a "standard." So do Jews. Even Reform insist that if only the father's Jewish, for the children to be Jewish the family must do A, B and C.

There was no judgmentalism as far as I can see, rereading this thread. A question was asked, answers were given. Now it seems offense was given/taken?

Sorry.



And as aside ... or is it parting shot ... I've never understood this thing of Jews letting Hitler y'sh be the final arbiter of who was Jewish.

- Amy
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Old 12-19-2002, 05:17 AM
 
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... by applejuice
... What really surprised me was after I had my first ds, every Jewish person I knew TOLD me I had to circ my son. NO matter how observant these people were, they all had what to say about a decision I was to make for my son. A desion that I consider intensely personal and monumental ... Most of these nosy people did not keep kosher, never went to synagogue and even celebrated Christmas in their homes ... People who are not observant should mind their own business; they should look in the mirror and decide how observant they are and leave a poor, new mother alone.

A circ is done in one day. But living as a Jew is done for a lifetime. There is too much emphasis on this one - shot- event when there is a lifetime of simchas and mitzvot to live.

Shalom
Thanks for pointing out, applejuice, that judgmentalism comes at all observance levels ...

Though I'm amazed that people actually discussed such a thing. Honestly, at whatever level of Judaism I've been at (and I've been them all) it's never been an issue. A baby was born, parents generally circ'd ... and sometimes didn't ... and nobody said nuthin'. Though with one of the non-circ'd the grandparents got really freaked.

But that was that family's decision.

Maybe where I live (NY) the communities are bigger so have much more room for all shapes & sizes. Not to say that NY Jews aren't afflicted with the curse of judgmentalism ... but then again, what human beings aren't?

Whatever.

Bye.



- Amy
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