#2 Biblical Marriage/Wife Submission Thread - Page 17 - Mothering Forums

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#481 of 587 Old 04-12-2006, 01:02 AM
 
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well then if he just wants youto remind him in the car that seems easy enough.

like I said having the note for me isn't a stretch. i can't remember my kids names. so it is there for me and obvious to him.

The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

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#482 of 587 Old 04-12-2006, 04:54 PM
 
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ok so i was attacking my garden today with gusto, and was reflecting on submitting (I was contemplating making my cucumbers and melons submit to thier confines while flurishing).

but the question that came to my mind was concerning atitude. So the situation comes up where we feel like we know better than dh but being the submitted people we are, after all we chose this, we do as dh wants. Knowing he isn't going to completely screw us over. it just might not be the best. how does our heart, mind and actions respond. Is it ok to have the attitude of "well I am right but I am going to submit because i rock like that" (take a guess how i feel ) what if we have that attiotude in our head/heart but we are skilled and our actions don't betray us? is that any better? how do we get to a place where we can let go of this silliness and think: his idea may be better than mine? equal to mine? have benifits that mine doesn't have? maybe he can see/is considering things that aren't even on my radar?

any thoughts?

The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

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#483 of 587 Old 04-12-2006, 07:59 PM
 
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I know in our household submission is a two way street. He understands the scriptures and respects them. For us it is mutual submission as opposed to a one sided submission as modeled in front of me by my parents. We share ideas thoughts and concerns. He is the FINAL say on decisions in our house but we both input. Usually the final decision has the best parts of what he stated and the best parts of what I have stated. When the final is what he has said ONLY I simply say okay and pray that my heart will soften and I will not get mad if something goes wrong. I pray against the "I told you so" attitude. I pray that I can take the supportive role and offer a solution instead of elevating the problem.
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#484 of 587 Old 04-12-2006, 08:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by afishwithabike
I pray against the "I told you so" attitude.
ahh yes, I had forgotten to mention that one.

The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

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#485 of 587 Old 04-13-2006, 12:29 PM
 
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Humility is something I have to work on continually. It can be difficult at times not to just say. What did I say? Huh? Remember? I remember saying this would happen, Do you remember that?

I don't though, because as I said before What good would it do?

I say it in my head instead. HeeHee.
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#486 of 587 Old 04-13-2006, 12:50 PM
 
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I've been reading this, but I can't go through nearly 500 responses so please forgive me if this has been asked and answered.

I would love to submit, give my husband head of the household and let him gather our thoughts and make the final decision, but I have always had to do this because my husband acts irresponsibly (spending way too much money frivilously and not being able to pay bills, disrupting the kids' schedules by poor planning and I could go on and on). He even wants me to get a job (which I'm not against) but for the wrong reasons - just to start earning my "share" in the marriage because he doesn't feel like taking care of the kids and the house and him is enough because there's no money coming in from that. My question is, how do I (I don't even know what word to use here) encourage him to take a leadership role in our marriage? I feel like I carry this family while he's trying to maintain his single status and we've already agreed to part ways when the baby turns one in July but in my heart, I really don't want that to happen. Are some men just destined to not lead their families? I think if we could get to those kind of roles in our lives, our marriage would go a lot smoother. Are there too many issues here? Sorry this has turned out so willy-nilly.
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#487 of 587 Old 04-13-2006, 01:32 PM
 
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His leading comes in relying on you for the responsibility role. If he doesn't want to lead and would rather you do it then he IS leading. It is his say as to who is in charge of what. I do the finances in our family mostly because I am home. I care for our two little ones at home, but I do babysit so I can bring a little extra $$ in. That is our arrangement. I like it this way. The daycare can be a bit much at times but it's okay. He doesn't care if I need to get out from time to time and do things on my own. He's really supportive.
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#488 of 587 Old 04-13-2006, 01:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by afishwithabike
His leading comes in relying on you for the responsibility role. If he doesn't want to lead and would rather you do it then he IS leading. It is his say as to who is in charge of what. I do the finances in our family mostly because I am home. I care for our two little ones at home, but I do babysit so I can bring a little extra $$ in. That is our arrangement. I like it this way. The daycare can be a bit much at times but it's okay. He doesn't care if I need to get out from time to time and do things on my own. He's really supportive.
I never thought of it this way. We're going in two seperate directions, though, because he's left me to do everything while he does his own thing without the family most often and he's not willing to let me do anything on my own at all. I feel that "submission doesn't mean you're a doormat" doesn't apply to him. Really, hit me with the truth - does it sound like I am just resisting? I feel that way sometimes but I get tired of having dinner ready and he's two hours late without calling and I'm not expected to say anything about it. Or scheduling family time (like this coming Saturday) and he makes plans with his friends instead so I'm left alone with the girls again. Or he buys another car to fix up when we have two in the garage already and we really can't afford it. I feel like he's rebelling sometimes, but the more I submit, the more using and controlling he gets so I guess I rebel, too and I feel like that's not what it's supposed to be about. Maybe I'm just getting it all wrong. Is there some kind of reference anyone can give me about the process?
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#489 of 587 Old 04-13-2006, 03:37 PM
 
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Actually I really got most of my life instruction in this dept from book called One Flesh by Bob Yandian. I tell EVERYBODY about this book.

As far as some of your questions go.....I do understand your Not wanting to be a Doormat and I completely agree. DH has his selfish moments and I have my Hey why aren't you helping moments as well. It is a matter of learning. Is there a chance you could take a marriage class together or something like that? NOT counseling but a marriage class/seminar with OTHER couples. Usually the interaction with other couples can help in a situation such as this. Many marriages have their own set of issues. If you were able to network with other couples you may be able to help yourselves as well as others. It's ALL about strengths and weaknesses.
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#490 of 587 Old 04-14-2006, 09:47 PM
 
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first you have to step out of the leadership role. until you step down he cannot step up. I will be chaos. it will be uncomfortable. Some things might have to come crashing down. you'll live. So what if the kids schdules get messd up a little. so what if the phone gets turned off. eventually it will all become rather inconvienient and he will want his life back.

if you are not opposed to going back to work (and I would suggest even if you ar, but especially since you are not) why not go. showhim you trust his leadership skills. by taking control of everything it sends a mesege that you don't trust and respect his leadership skills. If his very wife doesn't how then can he? Once you stop handeling everything at home he will hopefully realize how much you were doing.

I has to do this. it has not been pretty. It has been a year and dh is finallystarting to at elast see how checked out he has been. He is not even close to checking back in really.

now I am not saying just drop everything and refuse to do it. but stop complaining about how money is spent. if it isn't there it isn't there. his problem. ask him if he wants to take over (my dh used to be really bad with money until he took over. his spending really went down when he took over - afraid my attitude wasn't the best when I told him to "take care of your own stinking messes from now on" ) and if so hand it over. come to agreement about your budget (letting him have input of course) and leave everything else up to him. if he wants you to handle show him what youhave come up with and ask what he thinks. Does he see any areas that can be improved on.

treat him better than he deserves. men tend to rise to the occaision in the face of truely being honored and respected and loved. find something to respect ad respect the heck out of it. it need not be false adoration. Do you have food on the table? does he beat you? your children? run around with other women? you can always respect those things (that apply) up the hooha.

but most of all ask and recieve his opinion on everything. take his advice. even if he still wants you to handle everything. listen, really listen to what he is saying. forget about philosophies, and studies and every justification you think you have for being right and just listen to his side of the story. And just hear him. you don't need to prove him wrong. you don't need to making notes and preparing arguments in your head. man really want to be listened to.

gees there is so much to sy here but mostly you have to stop controlling everthing. if he doesn't step up right away that is ok. not everything needs to be handled and controlled. Sometimes things can just fall apart for a while. but he will never step up so long as someone else is there occupying his spot.

The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

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#491 of 587 Old 04-18-2006, 06:42 PM
 
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Hi, I just popped in because I liked the title to the post but dang, this post is looong. I don't think I can get through it all. Is it ok if I just start in on the conversation from this point on? lol
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#492 of 587 Old 04-19-2006, 01:19 PM
 
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jump right in

The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

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#493 of 587 Old 04-20-2006, 03:09 PM
 
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Thanks:-) I will as soon as I see some more posts!
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#494 of 587 Old 04-21-2006, 01:06 AM
 
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I know it was hard for me to get caught up in the old thread. I have found that if you read current topics then go back a few pages it helps to see where everybody is coming from.

DH and I have been dealing with a LOT of stuff this week. We are trying to keep the house clean and the puppy that DH begged to get has NOT been getting the concept of pottying outside. It is really getting annoying that I am CONSTANTLY cleaning up messes. I NEED to get a carpet cleaner so it doesn't get out of hand. I am trying NOT to get frustrated with DH over this BUT he makes excuses for the puppy. He however is NOT very helpful paying attention to the pup and getting her out on a regular basis. Any ideas?
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#495 of 587 Old 04-21-2006, 02:39 AM
 
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we have been going through crap this week also. I have to say I have not been the poster child for submission or meek and gentle spirit. The other woman contacted me and asked me to take her off my contact list and went on a rant about how dare she ask me for anything . . . if she didn't want me in her life she should have refrainded from falling in love with my husband. . . . blah blah blah tantrum tantrum tantrum . . .plus he didn't come hom for easter, didn't go to church with us, didn't hide any egs and barely showed up for dinner with his family. AND I feel like crap. i talked to him he said he was leaving. we got tired of wiating and I called him again and he still hadn't even left . . so long story short we were sitting down at the table and there just isn't enough room so its kinda like a puzzle. as we were figuring out how to make all the girls happy with allthe "I want to sit by" talk, dh got stuck right in the center of the back. DFIL says "won't it be hard for dh to get back there after we have all sat down, and I snap back "well he wouldn't have to worry about that ifh e had been on time now would he." Could I not have been a supportive loving honoring wife for 5 more minutes. that comment was humiliating and disrespectful to my dh even though he wasn't there to hear it. I feel awful about it. And he has started on his crazy hours (9AM - 3AM on a good day. twice he has just worked through the night) and that makes me crabby and everything just sorta crashed together at the same time. and we have been fighting for about 4 days streight. he said he thinks he can stay married to me if we more or less avoid each other. So there is my sad life for the next . . .good heavens we will probably live to be 102.

The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

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#496 of 587 Old 04-21-2006, 02:47 AM
 
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When the relationship is unhealthy, and you are attempting to submit to it, you are making yourself sick too Lilyka please get some help on your own...for yourself. This just can't go on. I am truly saying this with the best intentions and a lot of care.
Submission is fine, if the person you're submitting to is on your level...but this is not the case with you.

This submission thing is simply making you feel guilty for not fulfilling an impossible task. It's so futile and unfair. I hate to see you blaming yourself for having natural emotions. No wonder they pop out at inapropriate times, how can they not when you work so hard to bottle them up? If they didn't pop out at least once in a while, you would lose it. And if you keep fighting to suppress them, you can become very, very ill. I'm worried for you and I care.

This man is not deserving of your submission at this point in his life.
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#497 of 587 Old 04-21-2006, 10:28 AM
 
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Originally Posted by lilyka
we have been going through crap this week also. I have to say I have not been the poster child for submission or meek and gentle spirit. The other woman contacted me and asked me to take her off my contact list and went on a rant about how dare she ask me for anything . . . if she didn't want me in her life she should have refrainded from falling in love with my husband. . . . blah blah blah tantrum tantrum tantrum . . .plus he didn't come hom for easter, didn't go to church with us, didn't hide any egs and barely showed up for dinner with his family. AND I feel like crap. i talked to him he said he was leaving. we got tired of wiating and I called him again and he still hadn't even left . . so long story short we were sitting down at the table and there just isn't enough room so its kinda like a puzzle. as we were figuring out how to make all the girls happy with allthe "I want to sit by" talk, dh got stuck right in the center of the back. DFIL says "won't it be hard for dh to get back there after we have all sat down, and I snap back "well he wouldn't have to worry about that ifh e had been on time now would he." Could I not have been a supportive loving honoring wife for 5 more minutes. that comment was humiliating and disrespectful to my dh even though he wasn't there to hear it. I feel awful about it. And he has started on his crazy hours (9AM - 3AM on a good day. twice he has just worked through the night) and that makes me crabby and everything just sorta crashed together at the same time. and we have been fighting for about 4 days streight. he said he thinks he can stay married to me if we more or less avoid each other. So there is my sad life for the next . . .good heavens we will probably live to be 102.


Lilyka, I am sorry you are going through such a rough time. Please do not feel guilty for your husband's behavior. It is not your responsibility, he has his own free will. He is not holding up his end of the bargain. " Husbands, love your wives even as Christ loved the church and gave himself for it;" Eph 5:25 It is his duty to set the standard of holiness for your family.
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#498 of 587 Old 04-21-2006, 03:46 PM
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I am really feeling for Lilyka right now and I am just about sick of swallowing the bile in the back of my throat every time I read of *her* feeling bad for her butlick husband and everyone on this board supporting the codependent unbiblical submission stance here that is doing nothing but feeding into what even the most casual observer could readily identify as abuse.

If there is to be wife only submission (and I would say Lilyka's husband is a good arguement against the entire notion of wife-only submission,) there should be some mechanism in place that would metaphorically kick Lilyka's D(not for dear, I cannot bring myself to think that)H in the proverbial ass and allow poor dear sweet Lilyka some justice in this world.

Or we, as Christian folk, are nothing better than oppressers using G-d's word to serve as enablers of abuse (and Heaven forbid that.)

I have been monitoring this thread long enough. I have suffered under people who taught wife-only submission and blamed every single abuse on my husband's part on me.

This is sick.

It is unhealthy.

It is unChristian.

And I have spoken my mind.

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#499 of 587 Old 04-21-2006, 04:03 PM
 
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That was really well said Debra. I hope that it comes across as real SUPPORT for Lilyka and countless other women in her situation who may be reading or participating in this thread. I know that is the intent.

Wife-only submission is not a perscription to ail an abusive or ailing marriage.
It can, however, be a choice partners make as a flourish atop a bedrock foundation of trust and respect. Without the foundation, the person submitting is doing damage to herself. How do you get low enough to be *underneath* belittling and disrespectful behaviour? You do so by chipping away at your own self-esteem and confidence. And god did not make people to live like that. I believe we were made to shine and represent our unique gifts.

Lilyka, it is obvious that you posses many gifts. You're a loving thoughtful person. You possess a lot of strength as evidenced by the stalwart way in which you've worked to maintain normalcy within your relationship. You've used an emmense amount of willpower to stay with the man you married. You have a great capacity for love and honour. In order to benefit you and your family with the gifts you have been given, you need to channel them toward a worthy goal. Enabling your husband to live a selfish life is not a job worthy of your gifts.
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#500 of 587 Old 04-21-2006, 04:07 PM
 
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Right on Debra. Great post.



Lilyka, please hear these women. Please consider what you are modeling to your babies. This is not right. Do you have someone to talk to?
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#501 of 587 Old 04-21-2006, 04:08 PM
 
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lilyka, I am sorry this is happening. I an NOT one to condone poor DH treatment, and many of you know that, BUT here it goes.........

As pp stated there is a two way submission road. The husband is supposed to love as Christ loved. I am NOT seeing a good example of Christ here. We are people with real feelings and real emotions. God has a way of making us strong when we can't do it on our own. There comes a breaking point in EVERY person when the same horse keeps being dug up and beaten over again. YOU have done everything YOU can do. HE has a RESPONSIBILITY as well to live up to. I DON'T see this happening. He has been expecting YOU to do it ALL. There is NOT one person in the world that can do everything. Submission means "willfull alignment". If you don't know which way he is going where are you supposed to align yourself. This relationship is unhealthy. There is a taker and a giver NOT the give and take that the Bible speaks of when the TWO become ONE FLESH. I can't think of anybody who would willingly hurt themself and be called healthy. If you are willing to hurt yourself you are considered to be sick. He is willing to hurt the ONE FLESH. Tearing it apart. I am ALL for BIBLICAL SUBMISSION. Included in Biblical submission is a statement that says that there are reasons that you are able to "get out" of it. I am NOT saying divorce is a GOOD answer, but counseling and working to a better end has NOT worked. Every time you don't respond HIS way he gets upset. YOU have to follow along with poor choices and YOU are the one dealing with the consequences of those choices. The bible says that if you separate that you should if at all possible try to reconcile to that person. You are separated in your own home if you do as he suggested. There has not been much love shown toward you. I can't think of anybody that could really live this way. My dearest friend is a Catholic whose mother divorced her husband because he was abusive and selling drugs. The priests told my dear friend that she was the "spawn of Satan" during confession because her Mom wouldn't stay with an abuser. There are some backward philosophies here. God wouldn't want you treated this way. He is LOVE and he doesn't do this to us. You will do as you see fit but it seems this is getting out of hand and something NEEDS to give.
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#502 of 587 Old 04-21-2006, 04:09 PM
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Mamajama,

You rock!!

I have been in an abusive church that taught an unhealthy manifestation of wife-only-submission (I'm inclined to believe that any wife-only submission is inherently unhealthy because of the human inclination to have absolute power corrupt absolutely, but that's just me.)

I think if we were really Lilyka's friends, we would start racking our brains and collectively find resources for her to be able to find a more healthy circumstance for her and her children.

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#503 of 587 Old 04-21-2006, 04:22 PM
 
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I think if we were really Lilyka's friends, we would start racking our brains and collectively find resources for her to be able to find a more healthy circumstance for her and her children.

Debra Baker
I'm totally into doing that. The first step lies with Lilyka herself.
Lilyka, you have the power of choice in all of this.
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#504 of 587 Old 04-22-2006, 08:58 AM
 
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I don't know if this was mentoned already in this thread....the Bible clearly states "Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?" 2 Cor 6:14

I have always taken the meaning of this verse to make sure that the faith of husband and wife are on the same level. If not, and you are a believer and your husband isn't, doesn't negate your duty as a Christian wife. It merely makes it more difficult because it is a relationship that is ill advised by the Lord.

I do feel for pp situation, it is a difficult one to be in. I have my own troubles in my marriage and my dh does have a personal relationship with Jesus. However, that does not mean I should use his disobedience as a reason to be disobedient myself. KWIM? Also, God can use the wife's faith to win over the husband too.
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#505 of 587 Old 04-22-2006, 09:00 AM
 
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I think if we were really Lilyka's friends, we would start racking our brains and collectively find resources for her to be able to find a more healthy circumstance for her and her children.

Debra Baker
Very good point, God doesn't want us to not take an active role in our lives. I agree. I wouldn't mind some more background information so that maybe I can offer some suggestions?
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#506 of 587 Old 04-22-2006, 09:08 AM
 
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Very good point, God doesn't want us to not take an active role in our lives. I agree. I wouldn't mind some more background information so that maybe I can offer some suggestions?
Just read all of lilyka's posts on this thread.
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#507 of 587 Old 04-22-2006, 11:01 AM
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PrincessDoll,

I would suggest you make a special project of reading all of Lilyka's posts here (perhaps other threads) and get the big picture of what type of active and passive and spiritual abuse she has endured at the hands and heart of her husband.

Perhaps you may want to rethink using the old standard get the wife to be a passive doormat in an abusive relationship because I would bet my bottom dollar that G-d is grieved that His Holy Word is being warped to enable this man to mistreat his precious wife.

DB
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#508 of 587 Old 04-22-2006, 11:53 AM
 
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I am not familiar with doing searches for one person's particular posts. Can we do that on MDC and if so, how? Thanks :-)
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#509 of 587 Old 04-22-2006, 12:14 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessDoll
I am not familiar with doing searches for one person's particular posts. Can we do that on MDC and if so, how? Thanks :-)
Click on a poster's name on one of their posts. A bar will drop down, click on "find more posts by..."

Or, in this case, you could just go to the start of the thread and look for her posts. Just scan each page.

Lilyka, I am worried for you.
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#510 of 587 Old 04-22-2006, 02:12 PM
 
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Princessdol - I Pmed ya. sorry about the novel. Things have been better this weekend.

i am still sick and may have mumps on top of the pnumonia now. yeehaw. I am in no place to deal with him. I shouldn't be trying to tackle life problems while in this fog of sickness. and I need to see a Dr. i ned to get over to the health and healing forum but he is coming home for supper tonight. thats mazing. I think maybe it happens 3-4 times a year.

I don't see any reason to head for the hills yet. he doesn't beat us, we have a good life, except for being ignored by someone i want to love us. the only reason we fight is because I keep pushing for things. I would rather be fighiting that ignored. he is the oposite. and becuase he had an affair that I haven't been able to come to terms with yet. but that will come in time maybe. things will never be the same though.

I am not ready to throw in the towel yet. I meant it when I said for better or worse. this is worse and it could get worse yet.

it has ben a year since I found out about the affair. the anniversary isn't helping. it is just drudging up old memories. we are talking about going away for our anniversary. it was nice last year. just being able to hang out and be. away from work or anything he could do about work.

I guess we will just keep taking it one day at a time. apologizing when I blow it and hoping he will one day come around to where God wants him. I have to remind myself daily (hourly) that the work God wants to do in him has got to be in Gods time and not mine. I want it done on my time frame which seems to be less leisurly than Gods

The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

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