#2 Biblical Marriage/Wife Submission Thread - Page 5 - Mothering Forums
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#121 of 587 Old 01-06-2006, 09:46 AM
 
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Nine times out of ten with most men they say what they mean and there is no implication to an underlying message in their statements.
This is so true. I think sometimes us women are not so straightforward in our communication is the problem. I've quit dropping hints to my poor dh and just ask him for what I want/need .

I heard a really good sermon on submission the other day on christian radio. The speaker pointed out that the misuse of submission and the worlds perception have given being submissive a bad rap.(my words not speakers) The speaker went on to explain some verses and he brought home the point that we are equal, but God created us for different things. Woman was created to be her dh helper and he was created to lead. Neither is more important than the other. He went on to praise his wife and said he needed his wife as his helper and that God knew men need a mate that would be his helper. I'm kind of paraphrasing so I hope that I've explained it okay.
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#122 of 587 Old 01-06-2006, 08:03 PM
 
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Another thing my dh has said on the topic of not having underlying meaning:

in all sincerity "I am sorry. I really am that shallow"

poor guy. I really do make him feel bad.

The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

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#123 of 587 Old 01-06-2006, 10:17 PM
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Just because Adam needed some help in the garden (as in he couldn't do it alone) doesn't relegate all women to the "helper" position any more than anything makes one automatically "leader" based upon possession of a Y chromosome.

Anyone is entitled to an opinion but it doesn't mean it is right or even makes any sense.

Hint hint; we aren't all cursed because of Eve, either.

Debra Baker
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#124 of 587 Old 01-06-2006, 11:10 PM
 
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Just because Adam needed some help in the garden (as in he couldn't do it alone) doesn't relegate all women to the "helper" position any more than anything makes one automatically "leader" based upon possession of a Y chromosome.

Anyone is entitled to an opinion but it doesn't mean it is right or even makes any sense.

Hint hint; we aren't all cursed because of Eve, either.

Debra Baker
"And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him" Gen 2:18

I do not think that it says he could not handle running the garden.....only that is was not good to be alone

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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#125 of 587 Old 01-06-2006, 11:25 PM
 
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Angelbee...
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#126 of 587 Old 01-06-2006, 11:36 PM
 
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#127 of 587 Old 01-07-2006, 12:22 AM
 
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Anyone is entitled to an opinion but it doesn't mean it is right or even makes any sense.
: This is a support thread. I'm sorry that you're not comfortable with God's design for men and women, but I know God loves me and knows me that I'm confident in his design.
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#128 of 587 Old 01-07-2006, 12:44 AM
 
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there is a non-support thread in religous studies. I am sorry the other one got closed (not sure why it did) but please respect our choice to have a support thread about submitting to our husbands lead.

The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

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#129 of 587 Old 01-07-2006, 01:12 AM
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I believe mutual submission /wife submission *and* husband submission is "G-d's will."

And what happened to the gender equity thread? Hummmmmm, I saw some, ahem, familiar faces, over there where people who believe in equality between men and women were meeting for support before it got mysteriously pulled.

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#130 of 587 Old 01-07-2006, 02:37 AM
 
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Originally Posted by DebraBaker
I believe mutual submission /wife submission *and* husband submission is "G-d's will."

And what happened to the gender equity thread? Hummmmmm, I saw some, ahem, familiar faces, over there where people who believe in equality between men and women were meeting for support before it got mysteriously pulled.

DB
I went over there to wish you all well and congrats you on setting up the tribe.

I was heartfelt. But it wasn't received well

I had already emailed a couple of Christian mamas on MDC to check out YOUR tribe as this one was not in their comfort zone. I am glad that there is another tribe so that more MDC mamas will be able to find a spot where they belong.

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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#131 of 587 Old 01-07-2006, 04:01 AM
 
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SO . . . .

Some women go into this and get it (more frequently as this is gaining momentum and women understad submission and letting thier husbands lead. what a blessing to have it figured out from the start. Others just have easy husbands no fair. Some of us had easy husbands but drove them over the edge . . . .

for those of you who have a submission revelution (for lack of better term) what made you decide to make the change? What made you step down and let your husband take over as head of the home?

For me I realized my marriage was a mess. I met some wonderful Godly women and thought they were nuts. but they got under my skin. God was also really working in me. He warned me that things were about to fall apart but that I was to keep my gazed fixed on him and not look to my right or left but right into his eyes. And that it would be a mess but that he would bring me to a new place of faithfulness. (and for the record when God tells you something like that duck and cover) shortly after that i found out about the relationship my dh was having with another woman. I kinda figured at that point what have I got to lose. my way certanily wasn't working. This was not making me happy. Might as well give it a go. My heart was in a tender spot and very open to trusting God. and then the rule of three kicked in (God and I have an arrangement . . .) First I attended a Bible study on Submission and then I read a book called . . . Divorce Remedy (?) and it pretty much said "if what you are doing isn't working try the complete opposite" well alrighty then (i should point out what a control freak I am and i never even knew it until i started letting go of control, or until control was ripped from me rather.) and round three was the radio was doing quips from the book "for women only" and it backed up everything the other two things had told me, epecialy those areas i was most lacking in being a good wife. once I had really started walking in this submission thing, this group popped up and I figured if you were talking about it here it must be something powerful because this is the last place I ever thought I would see a group of women submitting to thier husbands lead.

And i think it happened at a good time for me. My marriage was in a place of transition to say the least. the perfect point for a fresh start. I literally had nothing to lose. there was nothing he could ask of me that would cost me more than I had already lost. Money? just money. give up more children? suddenly a lot easier. move away from everyone, why the heck not. My marriage had tanked, what else did I have. would it kill me to give it a year and let go to save it? we have literally had to start over. i have had to submit in some really big areas and God has really been walking me through it. some areas he made it so easy. things I htought i could never let go of. Someone on MDC once said very wiselt "Is this the hill you want to die on?" It puts my wants and whatnot in beter perspective. When I feel that controling self creeping up I ask myself "is this worth my marriage?" Sometimes it is (such as inappropriate relationships with women and I make no apologies for being controling and untrusting in this area) an somtimes it isn't. Sometimes something seems important but not worth the price/risk. Things are still fragile and progrssing i think. At least they have a chance now. I least i can say I have tried everything to save my marriage.

anyway, I spent 10 years interpreting the scriptures to say what i wanted them to mean. It didn't work out for me. So i thought I would take them at face value and see how that works for me. (the Dr. phil method ) It seems to be saving and improving mariages everywhere. Might as well give it a spin. His ersponse has been funny. He hasn't taken advantage of it or tested my commitment to submission. He feels pretty bad and usually gives me my way. He did put his foot down once. It was funny. you could tell he was challeneging me in this submission thing. It was almost funny It wasn't something I minded giving up so much. I was realy mad about it but in the end he was right. I was to mad to see it at the time (i was mad at someone else and was going to send them a scathing - at least in my opinion - letter. having calmed down and re-read it I think it would have only served to embarass me and make me the butt of her jokes. at best. now I can do it in a much better frame of mind, and in way much more honoring to Christ)

through this all the best thing that has come out of it is I am often called to examine my motivations. whay am I mad at DH? why did i want his or that? Is this what is important or do I just want to win? Everything abuot submitting calls you to a closer more Godly walk because you are no longer serving your flesh. Your goal is to submit your will in order to allow your dh to rise to his God given potential (which through a different avenue will cause women to rise to thiers). It is also womens calling tobe the peace bringers. I love that. I can imagine a mans walk is harder. But maybe it just seems that way beause they think and respond so differently. They way they are called to love thier wife is huge. I wouldn't trade places. not for anything.

I don;t feel controlled. he can't make me do anything. I chose to follow. I choose to submit each and every time. It has also motivated me to lok at things from his perspective which helps us come up with things mutually satisfying more than when I wasn't submitting (because I didn't care what he wanted). its ben an intresting ride.

it has been almost a year now. The pile of crap that is our marriage hasn't collapsed yet. Thats good. Thats better than I thought we would have had. better than we deserve. Not as good as I hoped. we are in counseling and that is a huge step. I have been praying for that for years. I haven't lost anything. I don't feel like this submission things has come back to bite be in the butt and that is good. I think I can give it another year see what happenes.

The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

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#132 of 587 Old 01-07-2006, 04:01 AM
 
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well thats a freaking novel . . .

The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

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#133 of 587 Old 01-07-2006, 05:53 AM
 
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The total truth....

We seperated. I was angry with him for how things were. I blamed him. It was his fault. If he had been nicer, more attentive, loved me more, worked harder....

We were seperated for 5 months. I had NO intention of returning to our broken marriage. I dated someone else.

I was so lost and really searching for truth. I wanted to feel cared for.

Dating someone took the focus off of me.......after all.....it was ALL him.....

Or was it?

I felt so lost.....I got on my knees and BEGGED for the Lord to show me a sign. Rich begged me to please out our family back together. I still said no.....but my heart ached. I continued to pray. God spoke to my heart. This is your husband. You are one. He loves you. Treat him like the man you know inside he is. We all have our weaknesses. Why must you continually magnify his? Are your own not enough to work on? : I felt humiliated! The entire time I pointed my finger at him........totally avoiding my own failures.

I decided I would not walk the corrupted path any longer. I on my knees begged the Lord to give me a second chance with my husband. That night we concieved our son Angelo : I believe he is our sign from God that even through the darkness.....God's light WILL shine!!! Nothing is impossible with him by your side (I am bawling right now for real.......today is dh and I's 5 year anniversary : )

I prayed to know God's will for me as a wife.......and here I am almost 2 and a half years later

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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#134 of 587 Old 01-07-2006, 12:11 PM
 
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Nine times out of ten with most men they say what they mean and there is no implication to an underlying message in their statements.
This is so true. I think sometimes us women are not so straightforward in our communication is the problem. I've quit dropping hints to my poor dh and just ask him for what I want/need.
But you see that doesn't fit me at all. I am very even keeled and basically ALWAYS say exactly what I mean. I am very straightforward in my marriage and always have been. I get along with men very well and worked for years in a heavily male dominated field that I did very well in because I get along so well with the opposite gender. They would often tell me I was "one of the guys" based on my even keeled personality. I am very feminine, cute, sexy, and very much a woman, but I don't fit your description of 'women in general' and in our marriage this would never apply. I don't think stereotypes of women support your argument for submission very well.
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#135 of 587 Old 01-07-2006, 02:58 PM
 
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anglebee

The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

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#136 of 587 Old 01-07-2006, 04:59 PM
 
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(((Angelbee)))

Happy anniversary!
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#137 of 587 Old 01-08-2006, 12:12 AM
 
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Sarah - yuor family is so beautiful

The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

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#138 of 587 Old 01-08-2006, 02:08 AM
 
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Do you find that it submitting to your dh makes submitting to God easier? Or is it the other way around for you. Or has submitting to both always been a cake walk ( I woudl question that any real submission has happened if it has always been easy)

I have found that submitting to my dh, really submitting, not just working on him until he agreed with me, has realy taught me how to submit to God. How to honestly pray that his will be done. Submitting to my dh is a concrete path towards submitting to God who is a lot less likely to let me know when i am not submitting (outside of natrual consequenses). My dh, unlike God gets cranky and moody. When he does it is a pretty good indicator that i need to examine my heart, motivations and if there is anywhere I am in rebellion. man rebellion is all over me. I never had any idea. you could have asked me and i would have said in all pios indignation "no no there is not a hint rebelliousness in me" but ask me to submit my will and let stuff go . . . unattractive sinnful selfish crap springs up all over the place and most of the time it is is either 1. pride 2. arrogance 3. self importance 4. greed (which really can fall under self importace) and 5. all out rebellousness. If everyone could let these things go we would have freaking world peace.

It is amazing how much I have realized that 99% of everything I feel like fighting for is just my Ok opinion verses his OK opinion and isn't worth breaking the peace for. But that seed of rebellion in me that needs to win . . . . And I have also learned I am more likely to get my way when I don't fight for it all the time. When I am always trying to get my way he feels he has to fight for his way. But when I stop fighting he is no longer defensive and almost always gives way to me. He actualy asks me what i think now. it is so weird. before I would shout it before he had a chance to ask. It is so much nicer and he is so much more receptive when he asks. I don't know why this surprises me. I am the same way.

Submission is also so much about unconditional love. It is an act of love given tohim without expectation of return. So what if he dosn't love me like Chrst loves the church. So what if he never ever gives me my way. So what if he doesn't consider me his equal (his opinion and actions changes nothing of my reality in Christ. His loss if he chooses not to utilize my Gid given areas of strength) The point isn't loving him for my benifit. it is loving him for his. Before I learned to submit my wil to someone else I never understood unconditional love. Actually I did. I have the term paper to prove it because I eqated submision with unconditional love. I just never applied it (wow, how much easier to say I never understood it ).

I have been thinking about why eople get so defensive about submission. I think the hardest thing for me was facing my inner control freak. I would have never acknowledged hunger for control until I gave it up (and the inner war that has been raging ever since ). I see now how much of my mariages problem stemmed from me being controlling and yet I never ever saw it. and if you were to ask my dh what my single most distructive force in our marriage was he would probably say it was that I was so controlling :cry. yet I never ever would have said I was controlling until I started letting go. And it wasn;t that I was right, my way was better or anything else that I told myself. it was that I was scared to let go of my control in our mariage because i thought he would screw it up. how ugly is that

The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

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#139 of 587 Old 01-08-2006, 02:41 AM
 
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And I know I am serial posting and mostly talking to myself but I bored out of my ever loving mind, have been in a very thoughtful place the last couple of days and thinking a lot about my marriage and submission and the more I talk the more beautiful submission seems to me.

I wanted to quickly address anyone who thinks I am in an abusive relationship.

First of all he has never laid a hand on me physically. well not in an abusive way.

Secondly while I have no doubt a case can be made that I was in an emotionally abusive relationship before and during the affair I do not feel our relationship is abusive now. Further more, by the same standard I judge him, a case can be made for him suffering emotional and spiritual abuse from me. with the exception of the affair and such I would say we are pretty equal. We have decided together not to dwell on it or have a contest to se who faired worse. Just exmine our own hearts and learn from our own mistakes. Sometimes we decide to talk in an effort to understand what is hurtful to the other but it is hard to avoid the blam and accuse game so it is not often. As to the affaior and what happened there in, I don't think he fully realizes how devestating that was for me and so I choose to forgive any downplaying of it or insensitivity on his part but have yet to fully heal. or let him entirely off the hook.

however, submission was not the catalyst for our problems (well not in the way people tend to assume) I did not even know what submissive meant until after I found out about the affair, and generally gave the standard argument of "when he loves me like Christ loves the church then we'll talk submisson. . . " so submission had nothing to do with anything that happened (except for my descission to stay and fight for my marriage rather than leave) Submitting was good for me because it really helped me deal with my motivations, my control issues and my areas of sin and took the focus off him and put it back on me where it belonged (wow, that sounds backwards but it is not). Once I started cleaning my act up there was les friction, less reason for his issues to rear thier head, also seeing someone else change can often motivate the other to change which I think it has. Humility is a powerful force as its couterpart pride. If pride can wreck something humility can restore it.

Don't think I lack spine or the ability to stand up for myself. I might sem uncertain and wishy washy here but I don't need to get a second opinion on things I am sure of. only on those I am not. I also do not idely sit by and accept sin. I do stand up in the face of sin and say "this is sin, i cannopt follow you there. I wil be waiting here if you insist". I also wil not stand for ilegal behavior. I am not above caling the police on my dh for illegal behavior. But I also do not stand in judgment of my dh. I am not his mother, Holy Spirit or conscience. If it directly effects me, and is serious in nature, somethign i simply seriously cannot live with i wil lay down the law. The only place I have done that is with the porn and affair and other innapropriate relationships (but make no mistake about it i do not take that lightly, and I make damn sure he is in the sin and that my attitude is pure and i still seek God for direction) otherwise I leave it between him and God. We both have our own stuff to work out and unless we ask the other for help it is between us and God. Conviction by the Holy Spirit is always more efective than condemnation from a sinner. I have really taken to heart the question "is this really my problem? " 99.99% of the time it is not. even before when i thought it was.

and when it all comes down to it for better or worse this is the man i married. There is nothing in him I did not have a hint of before we married. Just as there is nothing in me that wasn't there when he married me. things have increased and decreased and we have both rebelled here and there but all our weaknesses, character flaws and sin tendencies were already there. Marriage is a sacrificial love that will refine us for heavenly glory. Some people have a heavier cross to bare in this area. Ok. Some people are refined through other relationships (parenting, family, friends) and have an easier time of marriage. I am thankful that I am in the place withGod that i am and thankful that submission is helping me be refined to gods glory. I don't always like my lot in life but it is definitely refining me.

The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

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#140 of 587 Old 01-08-2006, 12:19 PM
 
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wow angelbee. congrats on 5 years

Kristin- Wife to J, Mommy to B (11), M-S (8), and little J (4) and J&J (7 months)
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#141 of 587 Old 01-08-2006, 03:26 PM
 
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lilyka -- Just wanted to quickly say thanks for the words of wisdom earlier. I did read, but havn't had time to post. Also, I've read your other posts & have some thoughts, but need to put dd down for her nap now. I'll be back later this evening to respond in more detail.

AngelBee -- Congrats on your anniversary!

Holly
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#142 of 587 Old 01-08-2006, 03:29 PM
 
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Hi mamas subbing here
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#143 of 587 Old 01-08-2006, 03:31 PM
 
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I want to add that since I have been exploring submission (I say exploring because I can't really say I am practicing it- more like I am working at practicing it), my dh has risen to the occassion and behaved more like a godly man. The less I submit, the less Christ-like he treats me. It isn't a conscious decision on his part. I doubt he even knows it happens. I don't know why I don't just give it all up and submit full time, but I wasn't raised in a submissive home and it is hard for me to break patterns I learned growing up. All I know is that when I work at submission, it is like his defenses against me fall and he starts honoring and respecting me more. Make sense?
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#144 of 587 Old 01-08-2006, 05:37 PM
 
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All I know is that when I work at submission, it is like his defenses against me fall and he starts honoring and respecting me more. Make sense?
Yep, It works that way for me too. Cool huh?
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#145 of 587 Old 01-08-2006, 06:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by laralou
I want to add that since I have been exploring submission (I say exploring because I can't really say I am practicing it- more like I am working at practicing it), my dh has risen to the occassion and behaved more like a godly man. The less I submit, the less Christ-like he treats me. It isn't a conscious decision on his part. I doubt he even knows it happens. I don't know why I don't just give it all up and submit full time, but I wasn't raised in a submissive home and it is hard for me to break patterns I learned growing up. All I know is that when I work at submission, it is like his defenses against me fall and he starts honoring and respecting me more. Make sense?
Yes, it does. I know that if my DH is responding in a matter of speech I may or may not react in the proper manner. If I don't get what he means things could get nasty. I have a tendency to sometimes react inappropriately. He as I have said before will make an observation that to me seems as though it is an accusation. I proceed to fly off the handle, if I were to control it and answer his question or respond to his comment in a more peaceful manner things would go much smoother. In the other direction, if he is acting more like Christ toward the church submission is a much easier task.
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#146 of 587 Old 01-08-2006, 07:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sophmama
But you see that doesn't fit me at all. I am very even keeled and basically ALWAYS say exactly what I mean. I am very straightforward in my marriage and always have been. I get along with men very well and worked for years in a heavily male dominated field that I did very well in because I get along so well with the opposite gender. They would often tell me I was "one of the guys" based on my even keeled personality. I am very feminine, cute, sexy, and very much a woman, but I don't fit your description of 'women in general' and in our marriage this would never apply. I don't think stereotypes of women support your argument for submission very well.
Generalizations are just that, General. In many cases there are certain exceptions. Congratulations to you for not having to deal with this issue. (and I seriously mean that). We are not trying to "support" an arguement for submission.

As has been stated in previous posts submission means.....Willful alignment...Here's and arguement for submission. Have you ever driven a car that has a bad wheel alignment. It jerks and wobbles all over the place. If the wheels are in alignment it runs smoothly. Thats an "arguement" for submission.
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#147 of 587 Old 01-08-2006, 07:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by joyfulhands
(((Angelbee)))

Happy anniversary!
Happy Anniversary to you too!

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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#148 of 587 Old 01-08-2006, 07:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by laralou
I want to add that since I have been exploring submission (I say exploring because I can't really say I am practicing it- more like I am working at practicing it), my dh has risen to the occassion and behaved more like a godly man. The less I submit, the less Christ-like he treats me. It isn't a conscious decision on his part. I doubt he even knows it happens. I don't know why I don't just give it all up and submit full time, but I wasn't raised in a submissive home and it is hard for me to break patterns I learned growing up. All I know is that when I work at submission, it is like his defenses against me fall and he starts honoring and respecting me more. Make sense?
Makes PERFECT sense!

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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#149 of 587 Old 01-08-2006, 07:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by whimsy
Yep, It works that way for me too. Cool huh?
This is exactly how it works for me too. That is what drew me to wife submission.

My mom ran the house when I was growing up. She was a SAHM and dad worked but she called ALL of the shots.

She never felt loved. He never felt respected. When I was pregnant with ds1, they started the process for a divorce.

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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#150 of 587 Old 01-08-2006, 07:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by afishwithabike
In the other direction, if he is acting more like Christ toward the church submission is a much easier task.
Absolutely. I think this is one area people get so angry with submissive wives. We focus on being submissive instead of the man being Godly. My problem is I only control me. Not dh. So while I can't make him more Godly, I can make myself more submissive. That is why it helps to realize that my submitting to God's will for me helps dh to submit to God's will for him.
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