#2 Biblical Marriage/Wife Submission Thread - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 587 Old 12-17-2005, 02:28 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Here's a new thread for all those who are daunted by long threads....

to answer someone's previous question, What if it doesn't work? You will be greatly rewarded in heaven for sure, even if he chooses not to follow Christ, in spite of your obedience to God and him.

And Re: The Story I posted, It actually did happen.. And to be honest, something similar happened to me, i just choose not to post personal things in a very public arena, because some folks love to shark around and cut people down

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#2 of 587 Old 12-17-2005, 02:48 PM
 
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I'm really not meaning to either "shark around" or "cut people down". These are honest questions . So if you spend your life smiling, looking pretty, and keeping your real feelings to yourself and your husband dies without ever ceasing to abuse or neglect you, will you not have sinned by not living up to the potential God has instilled within you? For example, what if God gave you musical talent and your husband, having no desire to appreciate or support you, did not allow you time to practice or perform, or worse yet, forbade you from doing so. Would you not be casting aside a gift from God by not realizing that talent?

What if your husband did not want more children but wanted to do things which usually result in pregnancy, while using birth control. Would you then be required to submit to your husband even if your faith did not allow birth control?
Or the opposite, what if you didn't want more children, nor had any desire to have relations, to who's will would you be required to submit? What if it is God's will within you giving desires for celebacy or childbearing?
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#3 of 587 Old 12-17-2005, 05:13 PM
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IMHO, If you spend your life smiling and looking pretty keeping your real feelings to yourself you are doing your children a disservice by modeling passivity. You are teaching your daughters to be a passive doormat and what you're teaching your sons to be cannot be repeated in a deaent family-oriented discussion board.

But that's just my opinion and I don't smile. I couldn't look pretty if I tried and if I managed to smile and look pretty there's no way on this earth or beyond that I would keep my opinions to myself.

Debra Baker
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#4 of 587 Old 12-17-2005, 06:02 PM
 
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to answer someone's previous question, What if it doesn't work? You will be greatly rewarded in heaven for sure, even if he chooses not to follow Christ, in spite of your obedience to God and him.


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IMHO, If you spend your life smiling and looking pretty keeping your real feelings to yourself you are doing your children a disservice by modeling passivity. You are teaching your daughters to be a passive doormat and what you're teaching your sons to be cannot be repeated in a deaent family-oriented discussion board.
Being pleasant doesn't equal being passive. Teaching our sons to be strong, christ like leaders in the home is what we are supposed to be doing. Teaching our daughters biblical role model is also what we are supposed to be doing. Learning to be obeident to the Lord in all things takes great strength and character. It's easy to rip my dh head off if I don't agree with him, but it takes much more character to control my reactions.


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will you not have sinned by not living up to the potential God has instilled within you? For example,
How can it be sin if we are be obedient to the Lord? God has given headship of the family to the husband.
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#5 of 587 Old 12-17-2005, 06:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by DebraBaker
IMHO, If you spend your life smiling and looking pretty keeping your real feelings to yourself you are doing your children a disservice by modeling passivity. You are teaching your daughters to be a passive doormat and what you're teaching your sons to be cannot be repeated in a deaent family-oriented discussion board.

But that's just my opinion and I don't smile. I couldn't look pretty if I tried and if I managed to smile and look pretty there's no way on this earth or beyond that I would keep my opinions to myself.

Debra Baker

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#6 of 587 Old 12-17-2005, 06:23 PM
 
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How can it be sin if we are be obedient to the Lord?
What if the Lord commands celebacy, or to spread the gift of music. What if the Lord tells you you need more kids but your husband doesn't want any more. What if you don't want to carry another child or it presents a health risk for you to do so, but your husband wants you to have more? Who do you listen to, your husband, or the Lord?
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#7 of 587 Old 12-17-2005, 11:13 PM - Thread Starter
 
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mamajama, i was not thinking of you when i said that...
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#8 of 587 Old 12-18-2005, 12:51 AM
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Perhaps if we told our sons to be pleasant and taught our daughters to be strong there would be more balance in their future relationships.

DB
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#9 of 587 Old 12-18-2005, 10:58 AM
 
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subscribing.....wish I had time to post more, but we are coming up verrry close to baby time! Love and blessings to all; hope everyone has wonderful holidays and a Blessed New Year!

Sarah, Queen of Hearts, raising a Full House with Michael, King of my Heart!
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#10 of 587 Old 12-18-2005, 09:39 PM
 
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and keeping your real feelings to yourself
That's not submission. I am a submissive wife, and boy howdy EVERYBODY knows how I feel about things! And for the most part, my DH wants my opinions and usually follows them. On the occasion he has other ideas, I will put mine aside (as long as it doesn't go against something God has directed me to do) Generally it's just a matter of time before DH ends up doing things my way anyway and I've avoided all the strife.
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#11 of 587 Old 12-21-2005, 04:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by janerose
... my DH is an atheist. Anyone else out there working to be submissive to a DH who is not Christian?
My DW and I are not religious. I am an atheist and she is personally spiritual but not religious.

I believe it was I who brought up the 'nature' of humans. That's just how is for us and DW does practice a 'submissive' role in our marriage. We believe it is just how humans should operate. We work as a team. I am the head, she the heart...it works beautifully and all you have to do is submit to what comes naturally to all humans. Be it God's Will or nature's calling...if you listen to your insides it all just works. We are different. DW and I embrace our roles and live very fulfilled and happy lives.

Also, we may not be Christian, but, we are more 'right' in our actions and deeds than most of the 'christians' we know.

Good luck to all of you! Happy Holidays and hope to read more great thoughts soon!
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#12 of 587 Old 12-21-2005, 05:23 PM
 
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My DW and I are not religious. I am an atheist and she is personally spiritual but not religious.

I believe it was I who brought up the 'nature' of humans. That's just how is for us and DW does practice a 'submissive' role in our marriage. We believe it is just how humans should operate. We work as a team. I am the head, she the heart...it works beautifully and all you have to do is submit to what comes naturally to all humans. Be it God's Will or nature's calling...if you listen to your insides it all just works. We are different. DW and I embrace our roles and live very fulfilled and happy lives.

Also, we may not be Christian, but, we are more 'right' in our actions and deeds than most of the 'christians' we know.

Good luck to all of you! Happy Holidays and hope to read more great thoughts soon!


Hrm.

What to say, what to say.

I am the brainier in my marriage. Flat out. End of story. I read. I went to college. I'm the intellectual one.

We're not religious.

However, he's the "head of the household."

Why? Because I am lazy. Or, maybe just because I don't want to think I've got to do everything myself. Because, I don't want to EVER identify with an episode of Everybody Loves Raymond.

This is my second marriage. In my first one, I was in charge. It was supposed to be "equal," but what that really meant was that I basically played Mommy--which is to say that men my age respond to "strong, independent" women like they're little boys. If I've got to tone down the "strong" part (the independent part I couldn't kick if I tried) to give my husband the room to be a "man" instead of a boy, then screw it. I'll sit on my rear, and let him be manly.

That's honestly what it comes down to.

It may not be the egalitarian, but it actually works. If he's in the driver's seat that gives me time for a nap.
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#13 of 587 Old 12-21-2005, 05:28 PM
 
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I think following your dhs lead with a crappy attitude is not submission.

First of all you are not submitting to accomplich anything in your DH. it is about finding joy where you are, letting yoruself be led and trusting and serving God (by trusting your dh and serving others as if unto the Lord.) when it comes right down to it it has almost nithing to do with your dh.

I don't believe God would call you to something and let anything even your dh stand in His way. he is a bit bigger than that. Sometimes I believe it is his desire that we submit our plans (or what we feel is our calling) into his hands. if it is his will and not our husbands our husbands will be able to submit to Gods heading if we don't interfere (often causeing a power struggle that will drown out the work of the holy spirit in our husbands hearts). There is no bigger ministry a wife and mother will be called to than her ministry in her home. to her husband and children. I think often ambition and other people needs are mistaken for calling to ministry by God. if God is truely calling you into misitry and your dh is against it submit joyfully to your husband in faith that God will work out and then pray for gods provision to be brought forth. its his plan. let him work out the details.

and while i do not think we need to h ide our feelings we should take a pause and really examine the root of our feelings. are we being selfish? greedy? self centered? do we feel it is injustice just because we aren't getng our way? Do we feel passionately about what we are arguing for or do we just feel passionately about winning the argument. would it kill us to bring peace and let this one go for he greater good of family harmnony and giving our husbands support as the leader? Sometimes our motives are right but I find mine are more than not rooted in selfish places and me wanting my own way.

The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

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#14 of 587 Old 12-21-2005, 05:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by glendora


It may not be the egalitarian, but it actually works. If he's in the driver's seat that gives me time for a nap.

:

The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

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Reminder: This thread is a SUPPORT ONLYthread.

Thanks

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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#16 of 587 Old 12-21-2005, 05:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mamajama
Or the opposite, what if you didn't want more children, nor had any desire to have relations, to who's will would you be required to submit? What if it is God's will within you giving desires for celebacy or childbearing?
I do not believe there is room for celibacy in a marriage. The bible tells us not to withstand from marital relations except for a time that is mutal for fasting and praying. If you do not have a dersire to have relations with your spouse I think maybe you need to find out why.
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#17 of 587 Old 12-21-2005, 08:27 PM
 
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I do not believe there is room for celibacy in a marriage. The bible tells us not to withstand from marital relations except for a time that is mutal for fasting and praying. If you do not have a dersire to have relations with your spouse I think maybe you need to find out why.
I know why I didn't want to have relations with my spouse. One being giving birth and breastfeeding which seriously affected my sex drive. Another--post partum depression. Another--not being fully attracted to men. Probably many more that I'd rather not get into. There must be room for celebacy within a marriage. If one is having sex against one's will, it's called rape.
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#18 of 587 Old 12-21-2005, 08:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mamajama
There must be room for celebacy within a marriage. If one is having sex against one's will, it's called rape.

WHat I mean is, how can I say this without offending you? This is how I feel. I have been married for 11 years, been with my husband for 14 years, I can't imagine ever not being attracted to him. In a marriage that does not have issues there would be no need for celibacy. If you are having some trouble, with whatever your issues are, you do not have the desire to have relations with your spouse, I understand that, but that is not the way God has designed it. So God, tells us there is no room for celibacy in a marriage. I fear I am not saying this right. Once you have dealt with issues that are hurting you, your desire for your spouse will likely increase.
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#19 of 587 Old 12-21-2005, 09:09 PM
 
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Once you have dealt with issues that are hurting you, your desire for your spouse will likely increase.

Well that was in the past. And dealt with. I did desire my spouse. Rather I desired to desire him. Does that make sense? The only thing that actually hurt me about those experiences was his lack of support. What helped me was to no longer expect or feel like I needed his support. My relationship with him is long gone now. Well it has changed drastically. We're no longer together but we do get along and co-parent to a degree. And I'm happy. Looking back, I would have gotten out sooner if I knew then what I do now. That people are just human, and inherently flawed. No person can make things "whole" for you.
If I submitted to sex with him during that time, it would have been against my will.
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#20 of 587 Old 12-21-2005, 09:16 PM
 
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It doesn't always matter what you feel like doing. Sometimes I give sex to my husband as a way of blessing him. I am not particularly in the mood. But I know he is. It realy isn't that much effort to say "ok I can be into this for an hour" it might not be the most fun i have ever have but it burns a lot of calories, it expresses my love to him and no one is being forced to do anything. he would certainly acecpt no for an answer but I like to say yes to him

I wouldn't dream of depriving my dh just because I didn't feel like it (although I wish I were better at initiating even when I didn't feel like it). unless I absolutely thought doing it would make me misreable (painful, very sick, medically instructed not to for some reason) I don't see any reason to tell him no. I also usually end up enjoying it much more than I thought i would. And having a giving generous attitude in this area even when I don't feel like it has helped him to have the same attitude toward me and improved our sex life greatly.

I also feel we have a responsibility to work on this area of our lives. I make a point of waiting up for dh, getting up with him, napping during the day if I have to, if there is something distracting from our sex life I make a point of fixing it, seeing a Dr. etc. And I expect the same thing from him. I would be ticked off if i was never getting any because he just didn't feel like it. dude, start feeling like it. I also feel like being generous in this area helps our dh avoid many areas of sin from stuff like porn and stuff, impure thoughts and lust, to resentment and bitterness.

The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

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#21 of 587 Old 12-21-2005, 09:43 PM
 
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That people are just human, and inherently flawed. No person can make things "whole" for you.
If I submitted to sex with him during that time, it would have been against my will.

ITA with the first sentence, people are human and humans make mistakes, it is very important to rely fully on God and not fully on Humans. The second question I disagree, had you submitted you may not have wanted to but it would have been your will to do it. Against your will would be if you absolutely said no and he did anyway. But giving in whether you wanted to or not, whether you liked it or not is still you agreeing to do it, therefore it is not against your will.
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#22 of 587 Old 12-21-2005, 09:50 PM
 
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Now, what if it's the husband who is disinterested in sex? Is the wife then to obligated honor his God-given low sexual drive and continue a celibate marriage?
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#23 of 587 Old 12-21-2005, 10:03 PM
 
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Hey, mj, empty your box!

Sorry to interrupt, ladies!
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#24 of 587 Old 12-21-2005, 10:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by DebraBaker
Perhaps if we told our sons to be pleasant and taught our daughters to be strong there would be more balance in their future relationships.

DB
Oh Deb...
I you...

I thought the whole idea of biblical submission in regard to the wife was when your husband was acting Christlike... Loving the wife like Christ loves the church. So the question I have is... How long do you give it for your husband to be Christ-like? And ARE you supposed to be a submissive wife in the biblical sense if your husband isn't owning his part of the equation?

Thanks for any light you can shed on this for me.

Warm Squishy Feelings..
Dyan

It's lonely being the only XX in a house of XYs.
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#25 of 587 Old 12-21-2005, 10:12 PM
 
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Hey, mj, empty your box!

Sorry to interrupt, ladies!
I made some room.
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#26 of 587 Old 12-21-2005, 10:13 PM
 
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Now, what if it's the husband who is disinterested in sex? Is the wife then to obligated honor his God-given low sexual drive and continue a celibate marriage?
That's a great question eightyferrettoes.
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#27 of 587 Old 12-22-2005, 12:00 AM
 
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Now, what if it's the husband who is disinterested in sex? Is the wife then to obligated honor his God-given low sexual drive and continue a celibate marriage?
Well, she can't force him to have sex. And she can't have sex with anyone else, so I would have to say yes. When this happened to us, I kept trying, and I waited it out and prayed, and made myself attractive to him, and eventually we talked it out and worked things out. Now we are back onthe same page.
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#28 of 587 Old 12-22-2005, 12:02 AM
 
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I think the idea here is.......

if you fully support someone in pure love, visualizing them as perfect, capable individuals, they will, over time, grow toward that vision. But if you wobble back and forth with fear and indecisiveness - or a "lack of faith", if you will - it will keep that person in their present state of unbalance and feed into the cycles you want them so desperately to break out of.

I try to live my life feeling this way toward everyone, tho, not just my dh. However, I fail much of the time. But I'm getting better!
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#29 of 587 Old 12-22-2005, 12:08 AM
 
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So the question I have is... How long do you give it for your husband to be Christ-like? And ARE you supposed to be a submissive wife in the biblical sense if your husband isn't owning his part of the equation?
You give it as long as it takes. Biblical submission is not about what the other person is doing, right or wrong their decisions should not affect yours. Otherwise you heart is not in the right place. Submission is about doing what God has commanded of us regardless of anyone else.
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#30 of 587 Old 12-22-2005, 12:27 AM
 
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Well, she can't force him to have sex. And she can't have sex with anyone else, so I would have to say yes. When this happened to us, I kept trying, and I waited it out and prayed, and made myself attractive to him, and eventually we talked it out and worked things out. Now we are back onthe same page.
Hmmm. Interesting that the onus is on the woman either way.

Is there some reason that the husband does not have an obligation to provide sex for his wife if he isn't "in the mood?" or finds her unattractive?

Clearly, the wife has such an obligation to ensure that the marriage does not become celibate. "There is no room for celibacy in marriage" should perhaps have the subtext: "Unless the husband decides it should be that way."

Interesting thoughts. Thanks!
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