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#1 of 38 Old 01-23-2003, 07:10 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I've noticed over time that ppl use the terms "spiritual" and "religious" interchangeably. This bothers me, as I don't see a connection btn the two. Religion involves dogma and limitations. Spirituality is a free-for-all, b/c it deals more with doing what feels right inside. Now, there are ppl who claim their religion is spiritual for them, but I don't see how that's possible if religion involves rights and wrongs. Eventually, as a religious person, you will do something that is frowned upon if you just follow your spirit, won't you? I have never met anyone who completely believes in and follows all of their religious tenets.


So, why bother w/religion if it's really all about spirituality?
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#2 of 38 Old 01-23-2003, 07:21 PM
 
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I've thought about this a lot...I think some people are out of touch with their spirituality so they need religion to guide them and show them the way. I went through a period when I was younger where I was anti all religions. I just didn't get it. But now I feel some people need rules and leaders to tell them how to pray,what to believe,etc...I am thankful I was born very spiritual and wonder why me and not others?
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#3 of 38 Old 01-23-2003, 07:30 PM
 
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Great topic, Chaka.

Using the royal "you," of course ... :LOL ... the difference between "religious" and "spiritual" depends how you see your religious "strictures." And by that I mean the basic acts and restrictions performed by people following religious traditions. Are they just things you've got to do "because G-d says so," or are they ways of enhancing your personal relationship with the Divine? Are they restrictions, or are they mindful acts of conscious connection?

It's all about bringing down those holy sparks of light from on high, to coin a phrase ... and however you choose to do it ...

The question is, what does it mean to you? And why do you do it? And if you can't answer those questions, then maybe you should rethink what you're doing ...

Judaism, as a particularly glaring example, has a specific number of commandments. Most are commandments to "do." A large number are commandments to "don't do." Either way, this is a belief system through which millions through the ages have been able to come close to G-d through doing specific acts, and to come close to G-d through not doing specific acts. The spiritual aspect has gotten lost for many ... but for many others, the spiritual is central, the whole point of it all.

And the rituals don't just make for nice holidays. They ensure that every single act, no matter how mundane ... even going to the bathroom ... is a spiritual lightening rod.

There's more, but dinner's gotta be made ... back soon ...

- Amy
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#4 of 38 Old 01-23-2003, 07:56 PM
 
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And the rituals don't just make for nice holidays. They ensure that every single act, no matter how mundane ... even going to the bathroom ... is a spiritual lightening rod.
Amen sister!

-BelovedBird

Mom of 5 boys- 13, 10, 8, 2 : and newbie Aug. 24th, '09 . babywearing advocate . Cook, baker, homemaker, wife to a man with another woman's kidney (live altruistic, unknown donor).
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#5 of 38 Old 01-23-2003, 08:32 PM
 
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I think some people are out of touch with their spirituality so they need religion to guide them and show them the way.
I agree, amymarie.

I agree with you too, chaka. Dh and I decided to drop the title of our religion, for that very reason. It's been very freeing for us! Dh more so than I. I never had the kind of hang ups that dh did, but than, he was involved in cult as a child. He now goes around trying to educate everyone!
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#6 of 38 Old 01-23-2003, 09:16 PM - Thread Starter
 
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It's all about bringing down those holy sparks of light from on high, to coin a phrase ... and however you choose to do it ...
Yes, however you choose to do it... So, are you saying that you (royally) choose to follow a certain religion and that's where you choose to quit making choices? Why limit yourself in "bringing down those holy sparks" by subscribing to a particular religion if you're just going to do what you choose to do, anyway?

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Either way, this is a belief system through which millions through the ages have been able to come close to G-d through doing specific acts, and to come close to G-d through not doing specific acts.
How do we know that they have come close? Are we to believe that since they believe they've come close that they have? And, once one has truly come close, why does one have to still keep proving oneself?

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And the rituals don't just make for nice holidays. They ensure that every single act, no matter how mundane ... even going to the bathroom ... is a spiritual lightening rod.
This is possible w/o religious dogma, is it not?

I'm not trying to pick apart anyone's religion. I just don't understand how anything you've posted makes participating in a religion anything special. If anything, ppl saying things like:
Quote:
Either way, this is a belief system through which millions through the ages have been able to come close to G-d through doing specific acts, and to come close to G-d through not doing specific acts.
seems to prove why religion has less to do with spirit and more to do with prestige and superiority. I feel like I'm a very spiritual person, and even if I did nothing to enhance my relationship w/my God/dess, I would still be spiritual. And, why steadfastly do what some invisible God/dess "wants" if s/he doesn't return the favor? Are we (royally) just working on the here-after? Do we not care one iota abt the here-and-now?
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#7 of 38 Old 01-24-2003, 01:46 AM
 
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I consider myself both spiritual and religious.

I choose to follow certain religious traditions because they are meaningful for me and help me connect to God and to other people.

I am a practicing liberal Catholic. I disagree with the institution of the Catholic Church on various issues, but I am still a member of the church body and I do choose to practice as a Catholic. I also study other religions and I incorporate other rituals into my personal spiritual path.

Many people may be very spiritual and have no religious beliefs. That totally makes sense to me!

I get nervous about people who have religion and no spirituality, no connection with divine love. To me, that's the stuff of cults and blind obligation and unhealthy rigid dogma.

I think most (many?) religious people are connected to God in a spiritually healthy way. I may think their customs are weird or patriarchal or whatever, but I can respect most religious people as sincerely spiritual in desire and longing for a relationship with divine goodness.

Those are my thoughts...
Kathleen
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#8 of 38 Old 01-24-2003, 05:34 AM
 
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... by Chaka Falls
... seems to prove why religion has less to do with spirit and more to do with prestige and superiority. I feel like I'm a very spiritual person, and even if I did nothing to enhance my relationship w/my God/dess, I would still be spiritual. And, why steadfastly do what some invisible God/dess "wants" if s/he doesn't return the favor? Are we (royally) just working on the here-after? Do we not care one iota abt the here-and-now?
Only problem with my response to this is I do not want to hijack this into a comparative religions/ Judaism 101 discussion. The thread is a huge topic on its own without my own tangents ...

But the problem with your response to me is that your reading of my post came with biases against religion per se and has nothing to do with the particular religion I was basing it on (Judaism). This is shown particularly the last sentences, since they are irrelevant to Judaism, which is not about living for the hereafter, it is about the here and now.

So you're coming at this discussion with knowledge of specific belief systems and reading into other responses your background, which is not at all relevant to my comments, even antithetical in some ways. It's almost like not talking the same language.

Same with NM's post, a whole different universe. There's nothing I have to do to be saved either. Not a thing. Don't have to light menorahs or avoid cheeseburgers or anything. Don't have to be "saved" at all, it's not a concept in my religion's worldview. Don't have to go through anyone else to get to G-d ... S/He's right here. No prestige involved, even the lowest, even the highest.

And Chaka, you ask how do we know they've come close? They've said so. Again, it's where are you coming from. What do "spiritually independent" people feel when they have an ecstatic moment? No different from what "spiritually obligated" people feel. And they end up in the same place.

In my case, there's a specific way that a specific people has to focus their G-dsearch, or G-dwrestling, as it were. Part of our spiritual tradition. Don't want to do it? Fine. Don't. It's about about elevating ourselves through mindfulness and making the mundane holy. So what if someone says they're close to G-d? How do you know they aren't?

And don't assume that one way is freer than another way because there's "less to do." Or that one way is less ritualized just because there aren't so many edifices around the country for it ...

Most folks who follow New Age or other spiritual paths that are not "organized religion" use rituals, too. (I do know from personal experience; my spiritual path has been rather ... circuitous ...) And many of them come from ancient traditions. One of the biggest trends now in New Age spiritual paths is study of Kabbalah. Which is entirely the heart, center, and soul of my religion's rituals.

Wiccans and Pagans have their own rituals, too, whether they take traditional ones or create their own. Just because they're not written down, that makes them less "ritualized"? No, that just makes them less organized.

It's all a way of understanding and expanding your relationship with the Divine.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other, ladies.



- Amy

PS - boy that was rambly. It's 3 a.m., so maybe I'll be clearer later further on ...
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#9 of 38 Old 01-24-2003, 05:38 AM
 
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Have to add that perhaps the problem isn't religions so much as people participating in them. The belief systems themselves work fine. People mess 'em up.

And the great thing about belief systems, is if you don't want to believe in them or participate in them, don't. Well, anyway, some belief systems ...

True, there are those systems that say you will burn for eternity if you don't do whatever, or you will suffer yaddayaddayadda ... I choose not to participate in those either.

I think the tendency to assume that those spiritual folks who are not involved in "organized religion" are more spiritual ... is coming from personal bias, on the one hand, and/or lack of knowledge about the "organized" religions themselves.

Okay, now I'm really done.

- Amy
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#10 of 38 Old 01-24-2003, 10:06 AM
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I'm going to sort of agree with all of you

When I'm observing a ritual (say, Passover) I feel closer to G-d because I'm not only remembering what He did thousands of years ago, I'm repeating the reading of the Hagaddah and the Seder like millions of other Jews over thousands of years.

I need do nothing to be saved because G-d *is* close by He has done everything and *I* am relatively weak and can do nothing but love.

I also consider myself spiritual. I think most specially so as a woman and mother. I can perceive and have learned to trust my instincts.

Some other aspects of spirituality have been codified and, even though I'm not observent and don't necessarily think they're always right they have worked for millions of people over thousands of years.

This isn't strictly Judiasm. I think of Feng Shui. Why on earth does Feng Shui *work* (I dunno) but one of the oldest cultures on earth is Chinese and these intensely civilized people have codified how to place objects to enhance aspects of our lives.

It really seems to *work* (I have also discovered that many other cultures have versions of Feng Shui and some particulars are different and there must be subtle cultural and/or geographic differences.)

Anyway, I have a lot of respect for traditional spirituality but also want to walk down my own unique path.

Debra Baker
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#11 of 38 Old 01-24-2003, 11:36 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I think I understand: The "religious" ppl who posted here are also "spiritual". They feel that the religion they practice is just a way of tapping into an old energy, and they enjoy it, but understand that that is not the only way to tap into that energy. Is that right? I know it's basic and watered-down...
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#12 of 38 Old 01-25-2003, 12:33 AM
 
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I don't believe spirtuality has anything to do with a god at all, at least not for me. I don't feel it has anything do with connecting to god. For me it is connecting to life and yes for some life/god are one in the same. I just wanted to throw in my perspective. Religion and spirituality are two very different subjects in my mind, although I understand how people can bring them together.

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#13 of 38 Old 01-25-2003, 01:59 AM
 
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Chaca i totally agree with your point that the two are seperate. I was also rased in a religious (christian) cult. They were very abusive. As a result I was very anti-christian and turned off to religion in general when I was teen and young adult. I've grown and learned to be respectful of people's beliefs or of their right to follow whatever religion. although I would never be able to accept a body of writings as straight from G-d. There are always peoples interpretation. I don't feal any religious leader is qualified to tell me what to believe. Why would g-d talk to them but not to me.

Spirituality is a very personal and private thing. At the same time it is nice to share some beliefs with your self chosen community. And to practice meaningful rituals. I am still looking for a spiritual community were I would feel comfortable, and safe. I just would never give up my power to Organized Religion.

Did I make any sense to you guys?
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#14 of 38 Old 01-25-2003, 02:03 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Makes sense to me.
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#15 of 38 Old 01-25-2003, 02:55 PM
 
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For me Spirituality is a connection with the spiritual rhelm that is all around us.

I think that most people find their relationship with the Divine through their spirituality. Such as the concepts of God in all things, or the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Prophetic and physic gifts are manifestations of the spiritual.

Some people find it easier to tap into and understand the spiritual through religious pratices. I think that ritual can be a very rote thing, or a very spiritual one. For those to whom the ritual has meaning, it can be the most spiritual aspect of their lives.

I find meditative prayer, communion, worshiping through song and dance, and yoga to all be religious diciplines that help me to connect with my creator. I also find things that would be less likely to be considered religious, to be essential ways for me to connect. Such as walking in the woods, or along the beach, contemplating the sunset, and nursing my babies. Birth it's self was extreamly spiritual for me. Death and miscarriage were also spiritual connections for me, yet in very different ways.

I have to say that although I am commited to my local church, I often find it the hardest place to connect spiritually. Unfortunately religious people often have a narrow view of how one can find spirituality, and are suspicious of others with spiritual experiences outside of their religious ideas.

I am committed to helping people stretch their ideas about spirituality and find a true connection with God for themselves.

Namaste,
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#16 of 38 Old 01-26-2003, 10:50 PM
 
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Hmm, I am honestly confused by amy's and NM's posts. There is nothing a Xtain needs to do to be saved? I thought you needed to believe in Jesus as your personal savior, and show that belief thru baptism, the eucharist, prayer and praise? Perhaps be real familiar with your Bible (the Word), go to church on a regular basis? Otherwise, why call youself a Christian?

Same with amy. Why call yourself a Jew if you don't "have to" do anything to be saved? I understand you don't have the concept of needing to be saved per se, but I understand from you and BB that Jews do have a concept of an afterlife (even the the "OT" only talks of sheol except in one instance). I thought you at least "had to" circumcize your sons? Follow your commandments? My reading of the Bible seems to say the Jews have always believed tragedy (destruction and exile) resulted if and when the people didn't follow the commandments to the letter.

Not meant to be flippant, just really don't get it.
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#17 of 38 Old 01-27-2003, 02:27 AM
 
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Me, I'm religious. I'm not always so spiritual.

I do mitzvot (commandments) and keep various rituals, and sometimes they bring down holy sparks from on high for me or other people. Sometimes it's just, you know, a person has to do this. Nothing to do with the afterlife, though I know the afterlife is part of my (Jewish, also) tradition--and not always part of this elevated path. But there are times for everything: I know I have an obligation to visit the sick, to celebrate at a wedding, to sit with mourners, to invite people to my house. I'm coming to terms also with honoring my parents, and thank God soon I'll also have the privilege of the obligation to educate a child.

I think sometimes that the deepest spirituality is in universal things, lifecycle stuff like birth and death, every day things likework. Religion is designed to bring that out, but if it doesn't, then it doesn't, too bad. I'm still committed to the one I grew up with, because that's the way it goes. And even when I don't find the spiritual moments, I'm not disappointed with my choice.

I love to read the Transcendentalists, Leaves of Grass, that kind of thing. And James' Varieties of Religious Experience, that really changed my life. But it's not the model that shapes my religion and spirituality.

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#18 of 38 Old 01-27-2003, 07:49 AM
 
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DaryLLL, it's a good question. Nothing flip about it.

Jews aren't "saved." We do mitzvot in order to take care of ... enhance ... our relationship with G-d. In the here and now. To expand our "vessels" so that they can receive/hold more Light.

The "OT" and Jewish tradition don't say "if you don't do this, you're not a Jew." They say "if you don't do this, you're cut off."

From a closer relationship with G-d.

All of mankind has a relationship with G-d, and we all relate to G-d in different ways. One of the ways Jews relate to G-d is through mitzvot.

And a Jew who chooses not to keep mitzvot is still a Jew. That's one of those funny facts based on the racial/family origins of Judaism. And people who choose to join the family ... marry-in, so to speak, are Jews, too.

Different language.

Don't know if that was clear ...

- Amy
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#19 of 38 Old 01-27-2003, 12:30 PM
 
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I've enjoyed reading this thread. Sorry to jump in so late.

I agree with Barbara in that everyone is spiritual to some degree or another. We are all created in the image of God, so we all have a spiritual nature as well as a corporeal nature. And as some people are more athletically inclined than others, some are born with stronger spiritual inclination. It's a gift -- nothing to be proud of, any more than being born with good looks or a higher IQ is something to be proud of.

Different practices and sensory stimuli arouse our spirits. Fasting, prayer/meditation, simplifying, doing good to others... Candles, music, rituals, tradition, nature's grandeur.... all of these affect us spiritually.

IMO, how spiritual (universal you) you are or how religious you are doesn't matter nearly as much as simply whether or not you are in right relationship with God. Which is basically what amyrpk was saying. Do you hear and heed the voice of your Creator, following Him as a sheep follows a shepherd, in total dependence and humility? If so, you might reasonably be led to follow certain practices that God commanded.

Jesus told a story of two men who went into the temple to pray. One was a Pharisee (religious) and one was a tax collector (scum of the earth). The Pharisee prayed, Oh, God, I'm glad I'm not like that tax collector. I fast twice a week and tithe on everything while the tax collector beat his breast and begged God for mercy. The Pharisee was probably spiritually inclined as well as very religious. And I would venture to say that the tax collector was neither particularly "spiritual" nor religious. Yet the tax collector was the one who was in right relationship with God.
(Hopefully he got his act together and started fasting and tithing and observing the Law, as these are "right" practices, but it was his humility that pleased God).
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#20 of 38 Old 01-27-2003, 02:15 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally posted by Super Pickle
IMO, how spiritual (universal you) you are or how religious you are doesn't matter nearly as much as simply whether or not you are in right relationship with God. Which is basically what amyrpk was saying. Do you hear and heed the voice of your Creator, following Him as a sheep follows a shepherd, in total dependence and humility? If so, you might reasonably be led to follow certain practices that God commanded.
These types of statements seem prejudiced to me, which is why I don't understand what religion and spirituality have to do with one another.

What is a "right relationship with God"? Why does what anyone else thinks is "right" matter more than what I might know in my heart? And, why would any Creator give ppl the tools to think for themselves, and then expect to be followed like a shephard? Humility, I understand, but it, too, denotes a sense of inferiority.

And, who decides what God to follow? I see this type of religious thought as devisive, and spirituality is not about division.

There is more in my head, but I can't word it right now... From the ppl who have posted abt their religion and opinions abt it, it seems that religious practices are not necessary, but just that little something extra. While I can appreciate that on an individual level, I don't believe that to be true for the majority of religious ppl. There are plenty of ppl who are out there downright afraid of God and committing acts of sin (whatever they might be). I don't see that as "well, they're just not as enlightened", I see that as the direct result of the religious language and mentality of the masses.
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#21 of 38 Old 01-27-2003, 02:36 PM
 
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I'm involved in a "debate" as it were in another (real life) forum about the necessity of baptism for salvation (Christians).

I am one who _does_ believe that certain things (that would be considered to be "religious" as opposed to "spiritual" within this particular discussion) such as baptism are required for salvation. Many Christians believe that baptism is required for salvation--the Bible shows that everyone who became a follower of Christ followed Christ's example of being baptized. Now, I'm not here to continue this "debate" with others--I'm just trying to point out that even within Christianity, there are different people who believe in differences.

This discussion doesn't seem to necessarily be a discussion about an afterlife, as such. But I have to say that there really is not a line for me between "religion" and "spirituality." The religious acts enhance my spiritual relationship. I believe that they are necessary, so I'm not going to "try" to be spiritual without them. Reading scripture enhances my spiritual relationship with God, even "good acts" and being kind to others enhance. All these seem somewhat outward in appearance. But I can't comprehend my spirituality without them, because I _do_ believe they are intrinsic to my relationship with God.

I have known people who _are_ religious but not spiritual, and occasionally not even interested in a spiritual relationship with God, and I have known people who are spiritual but not religious, and for them there is a "line", but the "religious acts" manifest spirituality for me. Some people would even consider "having to pray" a religious act, when I consider that an opportunity to commune with God, tell Him my troubles, and be buoyed up in my sorrows and share my joys.

This is a really interesting discussion. I posted too long, as usual.
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#22 of 38 Old 01-27-2003, 03:10 PM
 
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Originally posted by Chaka Falls

These types of statements seem prejudiced to me, which is why I don't understand what religion and spirituality have to do with one another. What is a "right relationship with God"? Why does what anyone else thinks is "right" matter more than what I might know in my heart? And, why would any Creator give ppl the tools to think for themselves, and then expect to be followed like a shephard? Humility, I understand, but it, too, denotes a sense of inferiority. And, who decides what God to follow? I see this type of religious thought as devisive, and spirituality is not about division.
Wow, these are the deep questions! I wasn't answering the right thing, was I?

I see religions--that is, systems of ritual and practice that help people to act out their beliefs-- as filling a deep human need. They include folkways and music and food and all kinds of good stuff. Religions address our deepest good impulses with liturgy and theology. I think on some level I must agree with you that our good impulses--"what I know in my heart" as you put it--are inherent in us. Some might say, God-given.

Religions are also powerful tools for enforcing social conformity that can be abused by people with political power to create unjust societies, to justify violence and social inequity, and to be generally abusive.

I realized when I finished writing to this thread last night that I am incredibly fortunate that my religion was never a location of abuse for me, but always a place where I could find those good paths to spiritual, or even just social and cultural, connection. It could have been so different! I can't think of a single religion that hasn't abused someone, just as I can't think of a single one that doesn't have some beauty or truth to it.

This is all to say that I think religion in general is a human response to what God gives us. Of course you personally have both the right and the obligation to decide whether a given religious practice is putting you in the "right relationship" with God. You can choose to be guided by other wise people--the cool thing about religious traditions, to my mind, is that they enable you to connect with people across time and space, to create a common language for discussion. Yeah, that is entering into someone else's pre-judgements for you--but in the end, you have to engage them and evaluate them and make decisions about what's right or wrong. Or that's what I think, as an individual who is trying to do that with a religious tradition!

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#23 of 38 Old 01-27-2003, 07:41 PM
 
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why would any Creator give ppl the tools to think for themselves, and then expect to be followed like a shephard? Humility, I understand, but it, too, denotes a sense of inferiority.
Chaka, I understand what you are saying, but this question made me think, so induldge me as I answer it for myself if nothing else.

In thinking about this I thought of my dogs and my children. I want them to be thinking for themselves (more so the children than the dogs ) but I do want them to follow my lead. Now with children I think the analogy falls short as they will grow up and eventually won't follow me, although as little children their safty is dependent on me. Now with my dogs....they never grow up and will be dependent on following me all their lives. Should they decide that I'm not so wise or important they might think my rule that they stay in the yard, or close to me on a walk, is nonsense and take off only to be hit by a car, or lose their way. It is important for their own safety and well being, that they follow me and the rules I have made for their benifit. On the other hand, I want them to think for themselves, (especially my children!) What good would unthinking robots be? It would be like this computer. Even dogs wouldn't be much fun or of much use if they didn't think for them selves.

Now that I have a healthy (or unhealthy) god complex, I can see that I would only want the freely given love and devotion, not blind followers. I want creative, thinking individuals that choose to give their respect and devotion to me and follow my lead out of that choice and their desire to be closer to me.

Am I making any sense here, or have I gone off the deep end with this god complex I've suddenlly developed? I'm sure I'll never look at my dogs in the same way again!

Peace,
b
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#24 of 38 Old 01-27-2003, 07:55 PM - Thread Starter
 
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:LOL I understand, barbara.

I'm thinking. I'll be back and re-read these posts. I have posed these questions as much to you all, as myself. I have entered into another phase in my spirituality, and the questions are numerous and badgering. I'm not quite sure if I'm being honest with myself, or following a misguided wish.

Thank you all for taking the time to join me in my neuroses.
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#25 of 38 Old 01-27-2003, 08:26 PM
 
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I do not have a relationship with a god. I do not think one/any exist. To me what really matters is what kind of person you are not wether you believe in a god which is a subjective. I do think some beleive in their religion and a god in a way that is spiritual for them. I also know some are spiritual (me being so) w/o believing in a god or following any religion. They are not intertwined. They can both sustain with out being connected.

OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
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#26 of 38 Old 01-28-2003, 01:14 PM
 
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I have a question for those of you that consider yourselves spiritual but do not believe in Diety. I'm not being flip here, I sincerely want to understand, because in my mind God and spirituality are entertwined, so I have trouble understanding a spiritual rhelm whithout the concept of Diety. Can you enlighten me as to how you view spirituality?

Thanks,
Namaste,
b
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#27 of 38 Old 01-28-2003, 01:33 PM - Thread Starter
 
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barbara, it's possible that your question is not directed toward me, but I'm not sure. I don't believe in diety as some all-knowing creator force that we must acknowledge and worship/praise. Dieties, IMO, are just creations to help us guide our energies and interpret the energies of others. hmm...there's more, but I find it difficult to put into words. That's the gist of it, though.

So, do I feel that dieties are necessary for everyone? No way. I actually admire ppl who don't feel a need for diety in this life. Perhaps they are better able to channel their thoughts and energies than I.

Therefore, dieties are simply contraptions to aid spirituality. I know I am not this body. What I am uses this body to learn, experience, grow. I am (very simply) energy, aka spirit. And, all around me is energy, aka other spirit. But, we are all derived from and composed of the same energy, aka spirit. Therefore, all around me is myself, and certainly, I don't need diety to see and understand that, but sometimes I forget, or there are so many things going on that I won't see what's obvious, and that's where dieties are helpful.

I think this is different for all of us, yet so similar. Diety necessary? Certainly not. It is simply an aid. A lot like a breadmaker. Can I make bread w/o one? Indeed. But, it will take some time and effort, which I might not have at the time I crave bread. So, an easier and less time-consuming way to bake bread is to put all the ingredients in my breadmaker and go do what I need to do. The problem w/that is that I might not appreciate or enjoy the bread as much since I didn't put much time and energy into creating it. Also, it makes it easier to shift blame for crappy bread onto something else. And, it probably won't taste as good.

I imagine life, if truly enjoyed, is much better w/o diety.
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#28 of 38 Old 01-28-2003, 05:07 PM
 
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Wow. Chaka. You're the coolness.

So what is prepackaged white bread?

Don't answer that.
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#29 of 38 Old 01-28-2003, 05:13 PM
 
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whoops. double post.
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#30 of 38 Old 01-28-2003, 06:19 PM
 
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Chaka, you explained that so beautifully!

I don't even think I can add anything to it, let me think about it a bit and see if I can.

OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
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