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Old 10-23-2006, 10:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Peppermint View Post
I read that in the link (about the 7 days) which is why I am wondering how that would work for someone with cycles like mine. If we couldn't have sex until 7 days after my bleeding ended, I would never get pregnant. Would that be my sacrifice, considered a medical problem that I ovulate "too early" or would there be exceptions made? I hope I don't sound stupid, I am certainly ignorant about this. I don't know any Orthodox Jewish people IRL to ask.

I actually moderate a forum (and even ran a similar site) that deals with Jewish couples and infertility. The site is ran by orthodox and chassidic Jews/Rabbis so I'm relatively knowledgeable about the subject.

I don't know everything and there are times when only a Rabbi can answer you but I can at least give ideas of what option are available.

NOTE: I can NOT answer for a Rabbi. I can NOT give the final halacha. I can just tell you what options some women have been given. If anyone DOES have this situation, I can help put them in touch with someone who CAN give a final halachic answer.

Would you prefer to pm me or speak on the board?
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Old 10-23-2006, 10:12 PM
 
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I actually moderate a forum (and even ran a similar site) that deals with Jewish couples and infertility. The site is ran by orthodox and chassidic Jews/Rabbis so I'm relatively knowledgeable about the subject.

I don't know everything and there are times when only a Rabbi can answer you but I can at least give ideas of what option are available.

NOTE: I can NOT answer for a Rabbi. I can NOT give the final halacha. I can just tell you what options some women have been given. If anyone DOES have this situation, I can help put them in touch with someone who CAN give a final halachic answer.

Would you prefer to pm me or speak on the board?

Sara, I think you're missing something here ... she's not asking for someone to poskin. She's not Jewish.

She's just wondering.
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Old 10-23-2006, 10:15 PM
 
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Sara, I think you're missing something here ... she's not asking for someone to poskin. She's not Jewish.

She's just wondering.
I know that. I had to make the disclaimers for others who were reading.
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Old 10-23-2006, 10:16 PM
 
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I asked if she wanted to pm or discuss on the board as it can get technical and I am too exhausted to think clearly right now. Can you tell I'm not thinking clearly now?
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Old 10-23-2006, 10:52 PM
 
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Well, I'll chime in here.

I've practiced TH since we got married 10 years ago. Dh isn't "not" on board, but he's pretty incurious about it oddly. He knows when I am Niddah, he knows when I am counting 7 "white" days (after the cessation of my period) and he knows when I go. Because I am "more" religious than he is, when we got married I thought it might be a sticking point between us (ha ha) but it wasn't really.

He and I both do appreciate the dimension it gives to our marriage, both in our intimate relationship and in our emotional connection to each other.

Yeah, sometimes it's a heckuva pain to leave little children, try to hide in the bathroom at home for 45 minutes to prepare, cough up the donation (which they don't charge if it's a hardship), etc. All the logistical issues, above and beyond the difficulties inherent in remaining "hands off" for 12 days or more. It's worth it though.

The last time I went, I had almost made a mistake in my counting that would have made my immersion too early. So after realizing it (another story) I went with a different attitude about it, and I really davened (prayed) with a lot of intent after I made the bracha (blessing) on the immersion. I really *do* find that coming out of the mikva leaves me feeling spiritually renewed. I really do. Even on those days/months when everything logistical is so trying and I just can think of 100 things I would rather/need to do besides shlepping out after dark to go to the mikva.

Anyway.

In re: immersion and the ovulatory cycle. Having myself experienced this issue (premature ovulation and resulting infertility) as one of many other factors associated with a long-term bout of infertility, I will say that the rabbonim (rabbis) we worked with were *extremely* knowledgeable and compassionate about this issue and worked tirelessly to find ways of alleviating the problems. There were many routes we tried on the rabbis' advice.

 "Now bid me run, and I will strive with things impossible." (William Shakespeare -- Julius Caesar)

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Old 10-24-2006, 09:21 AM
 
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Originally Posted by merpk View Post

She's just wondering.
Yes, I hope that is ok . I am just serisouly thinking about how if I were Jewish I could be childless and considered infertile, when, in my life as it is, I am considered super-fertile, and my early ovulation has never been considered a problem.

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Old 10-24-2006, 10:52 AM
 
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Let me be perfectly clear about something: Judaism does not write off infertility as a "sacrifice" or any other such thing (necessary suffering, whatever).

If there is a problem with infertility associated with the observance of Taharas Hamishpacha, the rabbis will work alongside doctors and the couple to do as much as possible to alleviate the situation. Having children in Jewish tradition is a mitzva, and observant couples (with few exceptions) most certainly want and welcome children into their lives.

Not sure if I made that clear. In our case, our infertility issues were complex (as they frequently are) and not solely related to ovulation timing. With the rabbis' help, we solved that problem but their were others left to solve before we were able to have children.

Not only that, but the pursuit of infertility treatment is very much allowed and sought after by Jewish couples having trouble conceiving. There are ways of doing infertility treatments in accordance with Jewish law, so most couples work with a rabbi as well as their doctors; there is even an institute in Israel specifically for Jewish couples experiencing infertility who want to have the guidance of rabbis who will facilitate their treatments (the Puah Institute).

 "Now bid me run, and I will strive with things impossible." (William Shakespeare -- Julius Caesar)

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Old 10-24-2006, 10:58 AM
 
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I did read up from a link above about the possibilities for a woman with early ovulation infertility. The link mentioned artificial insemination, IVF, etc. as possibilities. Would those options be considered better for a woman with early ovulation than having sex earlier than would normally be acceptable? That seems like it would be a sacrifice for doing G-d's will, as you would be going far outside of "nature" to abide by G-d's will. Which- ftr, is not something I look down on, I think putting G-d's law's first is very important. I am just curious if it would be encouraged to view a woman like me as "infertile" even though I am not "naturally" but would be by G-d's law.

:Patty :fireman Catholic, intactalactivist, co-sleeping, GDing, HSing, no-vax Mama to .........................:..........hale:
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Old 10-24-2006, 01:33 PM
 
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Without getting overly technical, a woman with a short cycle can sometimes 'dip' a day earlier, but that's about it. In a nutshell, if she ovulates much earlier than that her options become medication to delay ovulation, AI or IVF. Having maritial relations (i.e. sex ) before the mikvah is not an option.
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Old 10-24-2006, 03:08 PM
 
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It is possible that you could be ovulating on mikva night. You could easily test to see. Perhaps you only ovulate before mikva on some months while on other months you ovulate earlier. This would make a difference too.

By the way-Info for Jewish woman: some Rabbis allow certain options but not others. YOU have to ask YOUR Rabbi what he allows. Additionally, knowing HOW to use these options can only be done under Rabbis guidance. NO Jewish woman can use the options below on her own. I'm purposely leaving out info for that reason (and to be briefer).

Some options:

There are leniancies that can be employed. There are ways to lessen the first days (before the 7 bloodless days) if you have a shorter period. This can be difficult to do from a halachic stand point. Therefore, you REALLY need guidance for this one.

There are medications to delay ovulation.

There are, I've heard, some herbs that can be taken to shorten the period and when combined with the leniencies mentioned above can get you in earlier by 1-2 days.

There is the possibility of getting a semen sample (from Dh) BEFORE becoming a nidda and using that for artificial insemination or IVF. This can be difficult to do from a halachic stand point. Therefore, you REALLY need guidance for this one.

I can't remember other options now.
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Old 10-24-2006, 10:47 PM
 
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I've asked about this before as I too have short cycles (I have ovulated as early as CD 5 and as "late" as CD 14, but average somewhere around CD 8). My mother spoke with a woman who is frum and she said that I might be put on the pill to regulate my cycle a bit, or that something else would be done. The laws of family purity are never designed to prevent a woman from getting pregnant; in fact, for most women they optimize the opportunity for pregnancy.
There are things that can be done, halachically, to allow a woman with an early ovulation to be able to conceive. It depends on the situation, but ways are generally found.

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Originally Posted by eilonwy View Post
I've never been to mikvah, but I have thought about it. The thing is, I don't think I could bring myself to do it if I wasn't prepared to get pregnant every cycle (and I'm so totally not! ). I mean, I'm sure that if I was frum I could find a rabbi who would see that, for example, Bella really really needs her milk and that it'd be a bad thing for me to get pregnant right now because it could seriously compromise her health, but I'm not frum and I don't even know too many people who go to mikvah regularly. I'm also not remotely ready to have another child, for any number of reasons. I can see the benefits, and something about the idea really resonates with me (not all of observant Jewish traditions/laws do), but it's not going to happen at this stage of my life.
Just a note that plenty of people use BC AND go to the mikvah. I've never heard anything official about it, but it is probably even possible to combine Taharas HaMishpacha with FAM for avoiding pregnancy. You probably know that already... so anyway... Don't mind me...
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Old 10-24-2006, 11:11 PM
 
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Right, BY. :

 "Now bid me run, and I will strive with things impossible." (William Shakespeare -- Julius Caesar)

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Old 10-24-2006, 11:21 PM
 
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Well, after my totally redundant and pointless last post, I have to *add* something to the convo. : (I didn't read the whole thread before posting )

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Originally Posted by LadyMarmalade View Post
(is that the right phrasing? do you say "I went to the mikveh" or "I mikveh'ed " joking, I know that one isn't right). So, realistically, how often do you have a ritual bath? How often does your husband? Is it a community thing - I saw that the baths are at the Synagogue, but do you go in one by one? Is it something you look forward to (I personally loooooove taking a nice deep bath).
I say, "I toivled," or "I went to the mikvah." As far as how often, I have been married 5 years, started keeping these laws upon marriage, and have been to the mikvah fewer than 10 times. I have had lengthy times without bleeding due to pregnancy and lactational amenorrhea. My husband *tries* to go to the mikvah everyday. This, however, has nothing to do with Taharas HaMishpacha (T"H). Using the mikvah in T"H is a matter of halachah, law, while his practice is related to a Chassidic custom of going to the mikvah as a spiritual preparation for prayer and for general spiritual elevation and purification. The women's mikvah (often the women and men have separate mikvot, although in smaller communities, women and men share the same mikvah, using it at different times during the day) is often not near the synagogue, because it is private. Generally, the a husband and wife keep the time when she goes to the mikvah as private information, as one would not like to broadcast the schedule of one's marital intimacy. Often the mikvah building has several preparation rooms all with access to the mikvah or mikvot, so that a number of women can be there at the same time without seeing each other. Men, on the other hand, have facilities more resembling a locker room and can all pile into the mikvah at once. I've heard they socialize there.

I really enjoy going to the mikvah. I feel very excited and nervous in a good way while I am doing my preparation. In my house, my husband works his schedule around mine to allow me enough time to do what I need to get to the mikvah. I can see how this would harder if you menstruate more regularly than I do. Besides lactational amenorrhea and pregnancy, I usually have 40-90 days a cycle, so it's a special occasion for us. I find the time of actually immersing to be deeply spiritual. I really feel my prayers are heard at that time and that I am connected to Hashem in such a powerful way.
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Old 10-24-2006, 11:22 PM
 
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Right, BY. :
Thanks for appreciating my post. I thought it was totally redundant.
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Old 10-25-2006, 07:04 AM
 
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Well, after my totally redundant and pointless last post, I have to *add* something to the convo. : (I didn't read the whole thread before posting )



I say, "I toivled," or "I went to the mikvah." As far as how often, I have been married 5 years, started keeping these laws upon marriage, and have been to the mikvah fewer than 10 times. I have had lengthy times without bleeding due to pregnancy and lactational amenorrhea. My husband *tries* to go to the mikvah everyday. This, however, has nothing to do with Taharas HaMishpacha (T"H). Using the mikvah in T"H is a matter of halachah, law, while his practice is related to a Chassidic custom of going to the mikvah as a spiritual preparation for prayer and for general spiritual elevation and purification. The women's mikvah (often the women and men have separate mikvot, although in smaller communities, women and men share the same mikvah, using it at different times during the day) is often not near the synagogue, because it is private. Generally, the a husband and wife keep the time when she goes to the mikvah as private information, as one would not like to broadcast the schedule of one's marital intimacy. Often the mikvah building has several preparation rooms all with access to the mikvah or mikvot, so that a number of women can be there at the same time without seeing each other. Men, on the other hand, have facilities more resembling a locker room and can all pile into the mikvah at once. I've heard they socialize there.

I really enjoy going to the mikvah. I feel very excited and nervous in a good way while I am doing my preparation. In my house, my husband works his schedule around mine to allow me enough time to do what I need to get to the mikvah. I can see how this would harder if you menstruate more regularly than I do. Besides lactational amenorrhea and pregnancy, I usually have 40-90 days a cycle, so it's a special occasion for us. I find the time of actually immersing to be deeply spiritual. I really feel my prayers are heard at that time and that I am connected to Hashem in such a powerful way.
Thanks so much for this beautiful answer .
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Old 10-25-2006, 08:30 AM
 
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Oh, I figured there were plenty of women who use bc and go to mikvah; it's just that for me, for some reason, these things are connected in my mind. I'm a little odd, you know?

Rynna, Mama to Bean (8), Boobah (6), Bella (4) and Bear (2)
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Old 10-25-2006, 08:57 AM
 
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Old 10-26-2006, 01:44 AM
 
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Rynna, we've been through this before: We know, and we you anyway.
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Old 10-26-2006, 03:02 PM
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peppermint:

while this is not a direct answer to your question, nor a religious one from a jewish perspective, one of my friends who is really into FAM/NFP and also orthodox jewish and practices mikvah had the scenario you describe.

she is also 'against' various technologies (pill, IVF etc) to create babies when her cycle is healthy and she is ovulating, just not at the time to allow for mikvah and everything else to follow suit.

utilizing FAM charting and lunaception, she was able to move her ovulation from three days prior to her bath to three days post her bath. And she is now carrying her fourth child.

so, there are natural ways to move or change the cycle that still follows the religious structure that she practices. I thought it was pretty cool.

and, it's another option for those jewish mommas or wannabemammas who may be in the same situation. my friend was adamantly opposed to medical methods; she recognizes that others aren't--she just wanted a natural way to do this. And it worked for her!
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Old 10-28-2006, 03:54 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm confused... how did she do that?

babyf.gif

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Old 10-28-2006, 09:21 PM
 
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Well, I don't *really* know, but I'll take a guess. She charted her cycle to determine when she was ovulating. With lunaception, a woman can often control her ovulation by sleeping in total darkness for most of her cycle, then turning on a light in her bedroom for a few days around the time she wants to ovulate. So, I guess she did that. Pretty cool that it worked! Thanks for the story, zoebird.
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Old 10-29-2006, 12:49 AM
 
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I'm confused... how did she do that?
There are herbs and vitamins that I know people have tried and it has worked.
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Old 10-29-2006, 03:29 PM
 
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I love it. It's so holy and so special, but it is REALLY HARD to not touch at all during that time. I confess that I usually steal a hug or even a kiss on the cheek during the two weeks. :

And I ALSO am not so crazy on the "can't pass the baby between the parents" during niddah issue. Though there was something about not taking a glass of wine from your husband during niddah that I did follow (kiddush wine). It's been so long...I was only niddah like 6 times in the past 2.5 years of marriage...

 http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Wise-Woman-Fertility/182752565080597
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Old 08-14-2007, 04:15 PM
 
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Super interesting :

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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