LDS Mamas and Papas #39 - Page 17 - Mothering Forums

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Old 03-28-2007, 03:10 PM
 
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Katie- i read about Mr Roger's and his tattoos in your post. it made me think of what i've heard in my life. i don't know how true it is but i have heard so many people say 'oh don't let your kids watch Mr Roger's. he has tattoos!' : i can not stand that attitude and it's everywhere within the church. what does tattoos have to do with the merit and heart of the person? same with people who choose to socially drink or chew tobacco or whatever.
I've certainly struggled with judging unrighteously at times, but I really have to roll my eyes at those people who dare to do it out loud! Even if I thought something, I certainly never said it! If my kids weren't allowed to associate with tattooed people, they wouldn't be able to be around: dh [panther], my sister [dolphin/water], two great-grandfathers [various tattoos from their time in the military], our very righteous LDS former babysitter [at least 8 big tattoos that I can think of], etc., etc., etc.!
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Old 03-28-2007, 03:14 PM
 
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How do you teach your children those things while still maintaining that you want them to stay in our religion? I will never forget when my friends dad bore his testimony and was crying over his daughter who was marrying outside of the temple. Her fiance was not a member of the church. It reallyhad nothing to do with the guy, it was more that it wasn't in the temple. His eternal family circle had been broken. Since then the guy has joined the church and they have been sealed, but they didn't know that would happen.

My sister shocked me the other day when she said she has decided she would like to get married again one day. She said only in the temple. She's very sad that the choices she has made has *broken* our eternal family circle.

I would be so sad if my children grew up and didn't believe in the church. It wouldn't make me love them any less, but I would be heartbroken. I love them so much and want them to be with me for eternity.

So how do we do that?
I don't think there's anything wrong with teaching your kids that this is God's church. I think it's downright important. Just by proclaiming this to be God's church, without even having to say the words, that denounces every other religion out there. I don't understand the whole "we must always be pc" aspect that seems to have engulfed our entire world, including many members of the church. I'm not saying I don't think tact is important, or love or respect, etc. However I do think that it is our duty to teach our children the gospel and NOT be ashamed of it. That does mean that at times some will be offended simply by what we believe.

I am fully aware of the fact that my kids might someday choose to leave the church or live outside it's principles. It will break my heart if they do, but I'll never stop loving them and I'll always let them know that I love them - no matter what. They're already being taught that.

However I'm going to constantly bear my testimony to them, constantly teach them the gospel, and most especially LIVE it to the best of my ability so they'll have that daily example. I will not be ashamed of teaching them what I know to be right.

And also, I was raised in a pretty strict LDS home. I didn't rebel but most of my siblings did and we've experienced the pain of them swearing they'd never come back. But you know what? Most of them have, time heals wounds and the base they received from my parents helped bring them home. And the one that still hasn't, well, the scriptures PROMISE my parents that since they raised her right, she will too.

I can't live on the fear of what might happen - I have to try to live without fear because faith and fear can't be together and faith brings me a lot more peace.
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Old 03-28-2007, 03:51 PM
 
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I would like to know where the idea that you can't play with those who don't make the same choices as you. I mean I understand we are told to have good friends but we still are supposed to love everyone around us and not hate them just because they have a tattoo or piercing. it's just silly. I had all sorts of friends and I loved them for who they were. My brother is gay and I love him. He makes his choices and as long as we accept each other that's what matters.

Yes, with teenagers they can tease or try to make you do things but that's something I'm already talking to my kids about. If someone is trying to get them to do things they don't feel comfortable doing or don't want to do, they probably aren't your friends. But if they just do things differently that doesn't stop them from being a good person.

About the whole baptism. I want my kids to choose. i don't want them to do it just because but then that makes me responcible. I have to teach my kids the things of the gospel and hope they can understand what I'm teaching them. I want them to understand as much as they can and be able to make that decision
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Old 03-28-2007, 03:55 PM
 
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I would like to know where the idea that you can't play with those who don't make the same choices as you. I mean I understand we are told to have good friends but we still are supposed to love everyone around us and not hate them just because they have a tattoo or piercing. it's just silly. I had all sorts of friends and I loved them for who they were. My brother is gay and I love him. He makes his choices and as long as we accept each other that's what matters.

Yes, with teenagers they can tease or try to make you do things but that's something I'm already talking to my kids about. If someone is trying to get them to do things they don't feel comfortable doing or don't want to do, they probably aren't your friends. But if they just do things differently that doesn't stop them from being a good person.

About the whole baptism. I want my kids to choose. i don't want them to do it just because but then that makes me responcible. I have to teach my kids the things of the gospel and hope they can understand what I'm teaching them. I want them to understand as much as they can and be able to make that decision
loved your entire post but the bolded part is a real gem!

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Old 03-28-2007, 04:02 PM
 
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I would be so sad if my children grew up and didn't believe in the church. It wouldn't make me love them any less, but I would be heartbroken. I love them so much and want them to be with me for eternity.

So how do we do that?

Quote:
Let the father and mother, who are members of this Church and Kingdom, take a righteous course, and strive with all their might never to do a wrong, but to do good all their lives; if they have one child or one hundred children, if they conduct themselves towards them as they should, binding them to the Lord by their faith and prayers, I care not where those children go, they are bound up to their parents by an everlasting tie, and no power of earth or hell can separate them from their parents in eternity; they will return again to the fountain from whence they sprang (DBY, 208).
From the Brigham Young lesson manual, ch 46., emphasis mine

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Old 03-28-2007, 04:03 PM
 
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The idea came from...well fear.
My ward is VERY ..well lets just say they don't really know their neighbors mostly because they aren't LDS.
The Bishop's excuse is they are trying to protect their families....hog wash

Its ignorance and fear and even though we are supossed to love each other, I find it very frustrating that the mentality is stay close to your own(my utah ward shows this).
I for one go by my dad's example of loving your neighbor. We were friends with all my nieghbors and my dad watched out for them. We had one neighbor who was out of country doing free medical stuff and my dad always made sure the grass was mowed and snow shoved. He was never asked to do this but he truly showed love for his neighbors. They weren't LDS.
Thats just one example and I don't understand why more people..especially in Utah can't show the same kind of love, regardless of the type of people around you?
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Old 03-28-2007, 04:15 PM
 
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Katie -- I've seen stuff that should have been checked with Snopes up at church -- in particular, the email that was circulating about self-defence for women, I think it was this one. I find it amusing to see this kind of stuff in a church that claims to have the whole truth. I've heard some of the LDS hoaxes at church, too, like this one. (I think there is something about this at lds.org, but I couldn't find it.)

I think the idea about not being friends with those who are different is probably a bit of a twisting of the counsel to choose friends carefully, like this. Of course, it doesn't say to judge people based on their appearance, but many people do.

Magstphil, it's nice to see you back!

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Old 03-28-2007, 04:34 PM
 
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As I've been pondering this discussion of what to teach our children, I remembered a talk given by Elder Jeffrey R. Holland that is on this very subject. It's called A Prayer for the Children, from the April 2003 General Conference (May 2003 Engisn). Here's the link: http://lds.org/conference/talk/displ...353-29,00.html It is a very powerful talk! I remember at the time it was given, I was struggling with my own faith a little bit, and this talk hit me so hard. I'll quote a few portions:

Quote:
In this Church there is an enormous amount of room--and scriptural commandment--for studying and learning, for comparing and considering, for discussion and awaiting further revelation. We all learn "line upon line, precept upon precept," with the goal being authentic religious faith informing genuine Christlike living. In this there is no place for coercion or manipulation, no plce for intimidation or hypocrisy. But no child in this Church should be left with uncertainty about his or her parents' devotion to the Lord Jesus Christ, the Restoration of His Church, and the reality of living prophets and apostles....In such basic matters of faith, prophets do not apologize for requesting unity, indeed conformity, in the eloquetn sense that the Prophet Joseph Smith used that latter word. In any case, as Elder Neal A. Maxwell once said to mel in a hallway conversation, "There didn't seem to be any problem with conformity the day the Red Sea opened." Parent simply cannot flirt with skepticism or cynicism, then be surprised when their children expand that flirtation into full-blown romance.
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To lead a child (or anyone else!), even inadvertently, away from faithfulness, away from loyalty and bedrock belief simply because we want to be clever or independent is license no parent nor any other person has ever been given. In matters of religion a skeptical mind is not a higher manifestation of virtue than is a believing heart, and analytical deconstruction in the field of, say, literary fiction can be just plain old-fashioned destruction when transferred to families yearning for faith at home.
And to address the subject of children possibly straying in the future:

Quote:
Brothers and sisters, our children take their flight into the future with our thrust and with our aim. And even as we anxiously watch that arrow in flight and know all the evils that can deflect its course after it has left our hand, nevertheless we take courage in remembering that the most important mortal factor in determining that arrow's destination will be the stability, strength, and unwavering certainty of the holder of the bow.
So our plan is to teach our children our faith without reservation. I think it is entirely possible to do this and also teach respect for the beliefs of others, especially as someone mentioned when you teach about agency and when you teach about the Savior's love for ALL people.

klg47 wrote:
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Do you realize that many people on MDC believe that teaching a child your belief system is literally child abuse!?
I guess my answer to this is that I am not held accountable to the people of MDC for what I do with my children (even though some MDC members seem to think that everyone is accountable to them, lol! I am accountable to God alone. PErsonally, I think it's negligent to not give children a firm base in something. Even choosing to not teach a belief system is in itself teaching them a belief system.

BTW, I got the anti DVD delivered in my mailbox today. I read in the newspaper this morning that it would be hitting Mormons in Utah. I laughed when I opened the mailbox and saw it. It's very deceiving, though. It comes in a beautiful cover with touching pictures, like the woman washing the Savior's feet, a famous picture of Joseph Smith, the Salt Lake temple, and the garden tomb. The cover gives absolutely no indication of what's inside. If I had not heard about it here, I would have had no clue. That, I think, is cowardly. If you are going to put something like this forth, at least have the guts to be honest and up front about what it is and who it's from. Mine has gone right in the trash.
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Old 03-28-2007, 06:13 PM
 
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BTW, I got the anti DVD delivered in my mailbox today. I read in the newspaper this morning that it would be hitting Mormons in Utah. I laughed when I opened the mailbox and saw it. It's very deceiving, though. It comes in a beautiful cover with touching pictures, like the woman washing the Savior's feet, a famous picture of Joseph Smith, the Salt Lake temple, and the garden tomb. The cover gives absolutely no indication of what's inside. If I had not heard about it here, I would have had no clue. That, I think, is cowardly. If you are going to put something like this forth, at least have the guts to be honest and up front about what it is and who it's from. Mine has gone right in the trash.
There's an ex-LDS poster on the Daily Herald website who started saying last week that something earth-shattering was coming on Sunday or Monday, that it would basically decimate the Church, and that he couldn't say any more about it. I assumed it would be some sort of lawsuit or abuse allegations against some or all of the General Authorities. The poster hasn't posted since the DVD started being distributed last Sunday, but the consensus is that the DVD was his earth-shattering news. I almost feel sorry for him I mean, he seriously thought that this DVD was earth-shattering and would destroy the Church. He must be very disappointed, and I imagine his disappointment will worsen over the next few weeks and months. The people who initiated the project say they have distributed 500,000 DVDs and have received dozens of calls. I wouldn't be surprised if half those calls were angry calls demanding that they leave people alone, lol. And he didn't specify how many dozen calls, so I assumed that it was 3 dozen 36 responses out of 500,000 = 0.007%. Not too impressive!
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Old 03-28-2007, 07:13 PM
 
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what was in the DVD that was so earth shattering??

i remember when the book, " davinci code" came out. stating that it would shatter the catholic church and members were told not to read it or watch the movie.

so far, as i can tell, the catholic church seems to be standing....................

what could decimate the LDS church??
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Old 03-28-2007, 07:38 PM
 
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what was in the DVD that was so earth shattering??
It's all the typical anti-LDS stuff. quarteralien linked to the rebuttal site earlier, and they have a point-by-point listing of everything objectionable. I've also heard that the DVD shows part of the temple ceremony (I have no idea which part). That alone will turn off most LDS viewers - they'll be disgusted that the producers showed it.
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Old 03-28-2007, 08:34 PM
 
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the DVD shows part of the temple ceremony
ummm, how can anyone show that unless they had a hidden camera or recreated it? That video sounds sad.

Here in Texas when I went to Texas A&M Univ. we always got flyers on our cars saying what is "wrong" with our religion

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Old 03-28-2007, 09:05 PM
 
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ummm, how can anyone show that unless they had a hidden camera or recreated it? That video sounds sad.
I'm sure it's a recreation. About half of the people on the board of the organization that made the video are ex-LDS, so they would know what it includes. Also, I've never searched, but I would bet that if you looked on the internet, you could find anything about it that you wanted to. So it would be easy to recreate.

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Here in Texas when I went to Texas A&M Univ. we always got flyers on our cars saying what is "wrong" with our religion
Interesting -- many of my co-workers in Houston went to A&M!
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Old 03-29-2007, 02:21 AM
 
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I heard tonight Pres. Hinckly is hospitalized and won't be speaking at conference and he's REALLY sick. I'm sure it will be released to the press sometime during conferance. I feel we should pray for him because the feeling is he won't last long.
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Old 03-29-2007, 03:27 AM
 
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What is your source? I just checked all Utah media sources and not a wiff of this. He does not go into the hospital unnoticed here, and there are media souces who would print this even if the LDS church asked to have this not published.
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Old 03-29-2007, 08:46 AM
 
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I heard tonight Pres. Hinckly is hospitalized and won't be speaking at conference and he's REALLY sick. I'm sure it will be released to the press sometime during conferance. I feel we should pray for him because the feeling is he won't last long.
I hope it's not true. i'm already flying to California this morning for a funeral.
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Old 03-29-2007, 10:45 AM
 
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I heard tonight Pres. Hinckly is hospitalized and won't be speaking at conference and he's REALLY sick. I'm sure it will be released to the press sometime during conferance. I feel we should pray for him because the feeling is he won't last long.
I hope he's okay and always keep him my prayers.

I can't find ANYTHING about it though in the news or online or anywhere. I even have a friend who works in the church office building who hadn't heard it but said he'd ask around today at work.
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Old 03-29-2007, 11:33 AM
 
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I hope its not true too.
On a small private birthing list I'm on a girl posted that apparently they said it at temple session yesterday morning.

So I guess we will all find out sooner or later.
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Old 03-29-2007, 12:03 PM
 
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i never ever want the Prophet to leave us! his time is coming, though.

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Old 03-29-2007, 12:38 PM
 
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i never ever want the Prophet to leave us! his time is coming, though.
Yes, he's now the oldest prophet in this dispensation! While I do love him, I can't get too worked up, knowing how wonderful his life has been, how much he has missed Sister Hinckley, and knowing what great men we have awaiting us in the line of succession.
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Old 03-29-2007, 03:23 PM
 
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I just wanted to say that I'm glad I'm old fashioned.
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Old 03-29-2007, 03:36 PM
 
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I'm so frustrated. I posted here if anyone wants to read it. http://www.mothering.com/discussions...57#post7692657

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Old 03-29-2007, 04:45 PM
 
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I'm so sorry things aren't well Seren. It's just annoying when they don't understand.
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Old 03-29-2007, 04:48 PM
 
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I wanted to update that the Pres. Hinkley is fine and well.

I REALLY HATE those rumors and I'm sorry I said anything and I'm frustrated someone would even start a rumor like that. Darn preggo hormones are not helping.
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Old 03-29-2007, 04:48 PM
 
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nakagain, I hope things are okay with your preganancy and house. I was thinking of you for some reason, and realized that we were in a similar situation a few years ago. It was pretty bleak. We were trying so hard to have faith and trust in the Lord. I was questioning my decisions, even though I felt like at the time they were approved by the Lord. We needed to get rid of a motor home that we had ended up going into debt for. We thought we'd have the money to pay it off from selling our house, but our new house ended up needing lots of work, much of it unexpected. So we were stuck with a payment we couldn't afford. We owed 13,000 on the motor home. My dh took it to 5 or 6 different RV lots and asked what they would pay for it. None of them would even take it. They said at most, they'd give him 5,000 for it. One guy told us to put it in the thrifty nickel for 1200 and see if we got any bites. We decided to put it in for 5,000, since that was the highest we seemed to be able to hope for. That day, the young men's president came over and Dallin told him what we'd done. He said call them back and list it for 20,000. We were thinking, no way, but we did it just to see what happened. We ended up with so many offers that we had to have a silent auction and ended up selling it for 21,000!
Be prepared for the Lord to bless you!

Seren, I read your post, and I feel really sorry that things are so hard. I can see things from your dh's point of view, too, though. When I'm tired in the morning I don't always say the nicest things. He might be feeling just as depressed and helpless as you. Be gentle to each other. Hugs to both of you! Sometimes when I am suffering with depression, it helps if I just give myself one "job" for the day and try to accomplish that. Often it gets me going enough to do even more.
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Old 03-29-2007, 04:58 PM
 
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Glad he is fine... I hate those rumors. Prolly what happened was a special prayer for him or something and the person was not paying attention and thought he was dying.
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Old 03-30-2007, 12:46 AM
 
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i've been wantng to post this question in religious studies but really want an LDS point of view seeing as how it seems we view sin somewhat differently. my question is is sin a sin if you don't know you're sinning? can one really be held accountable for masturbation if they don't know it's a no-no? tha's just one example of many. i think of this because where i was disfellowshipped for fornication DH didn't have to go through that process because he later converted and 'didn't know better' he didn't make the covenants i had made, either. so if it isn't a sin then how far do we go? if one murders without knowledge that it's wrong are they then in the clear? my first thought is no because we all are born with the 'knowledge' that taking someone's free agency is wrong. murder, rape, pedophillia, etc etc. but then there are those who don't have that 'off' button. can they really be held accountable?

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Old 03-30-2007, 12:52 AM
 
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i've been wantng to post this question in religious studies but really want an LDS point of view seeing as how it seems we view sin somewhat differently. my question is is sin a sin if you don't know you're sinning? can one really be held accountable for masturbation if they don't know it's a no-no? tha's just one example of many. i think of this because where i was disfellowshipped for fornication DH didn't have to go through that process because he later converted and 'didn't know better' he didn't make the covenants i had made, either. so if it isn't a sin then how far do we go? if one murders without knowledge that it's wrong are they then in the clear? my first thought is no because we all are born with the 'knowledge' that taking someone's free agency is wrong. murder, rape, pedophillia, etc etc. but then there are those who don't have that 'off' button. can they really be held accountable?
To be honest? I don't think so. For one thing, this is why I'm glad I don't have to be a judge in Israel because it's all so confusing and each case has to be taken on its own, kwim? I really think that if you don't know it's a sin, you can't possibly be held accountable for it.

It may seem unfair that you and your dh could get different treatments for the same sin but it makes sense too. Even if you and I did the exact same thing, had made the same covenants, etc. it could still be different repentance processes - based on our bishop, based on the timing, based on their belief in our repentance or desire, etc.

Does that make any sense?

And I don't think everyone has an off button or even learns that murder, etc. is wrong. So I don't think they'll be judged the way those of us who do know.

It really does seem unfair sometimes but then I think of that parable where some men went to work in the morning and were told a certain amount of pay they'd receive. At noon time more men joined and were given the same amount of pay even though they didn't work as long. The first ones complained. But as I remember it, it was explained that they hadn't been shorted on anything - they'd received what they'd been promised. Same idea holds true for me when it comes to sin. Seems like it would be easy to make a bunch of mistakes and then repent later when you found it was wrong and it's not so easy to have to live your life right all the time if you were born in the church.

Then again, the repentance process is still required for anyone and it is still painful for anyone and I'd rather live the life I have even if I didn't get to try everything someone else who didn't know better did.

Is that long enough? LOL
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Old 03-30-2007, 12:55 AM
 
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thanks for your post, Tara. i actually hink it seems more fair then condeming someone for doing something they don't know is wrong. does that make sense? i just couldn't see that happening. i guess that's why in life it's hard for me to expect every non member to have our 'vaues'. i can't get upset with someone for going to a strip club when they honest to goodness don't see the issue with it.

Maggie, blissfully married mama of 5 little ladies on my own little path. homeschool.gif gd.gifRainbow.gif
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Old 03-30-2007, 01:00 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magstphil View Post
thanks for your post, Tara. i actually hink it seems more fair then condeming someone for doing something they don't know is wrong. does that make sense? i just couldn't see that happening. i guess that's why in life it's hard for me to expect every non member to have our 'vaues'. i can't get upset with someone for going to a strip club when they honest to goodness don't see the issue with it.
same with me. I always try to remember that others don't have the same belief system as me so they're coming from a totally different place.

The thing that does get to me sometimes is when they mock or belittle my beliefs because I feel like I try SO HARD NOT to do that to anyone else - but then again, just makes me stronger, right?

Are you as glad as me that only do we have an infinitely perfect Father but that He is loving and kind as well? I just imagine Him being as merciful as possible because He loves us so much - no matter what our mistakes.
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