LDS Mamas and Papas #43 - Page 15 - Mothering Forums
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#421 of 582 Old 08-01-2007, 05:52 PM
 
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Which chapters is that? Next week our ward is doing Acts 5-9, I think.
Its the one after that. So, a week from this Sunday for those of you doing Acts 5-9 this Sunday. It'll be interesting to see if circ is even brought up by the various teachers. We should do a "role call" in two weeks and see whose teachers brought it up and whose didn't.

By the way, the Lesson plan does bring up that circumcision is not part of the Gospel covenant today (its part "D" under preparation, and the goes from there, later in the lesson). So, we can all be ready with our arguments.

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#422 of 582 Old 08-01-2007, 05:59 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I wish I could. It would be interesting in my ward where most people are old and retired. There are a few couples, but not many. I'm in the marriage class. So I guess I could skip out and make my comments.
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#423 of 582 Old 08-01-2007, 06:06 PM
 
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It'll be interesting to see if circ is even brought up by the various teachers. We should do a "role call" in two weeks and see whose teachers brought it up and whose didn't.
I think that my 3-time homebirther friend/VT partner will be teaching that day. I would assume that she doesn't circ, but I can't say for sure. I found out that her youngest, who is almost 3, doesn't have any vaccines. She is planning to do them since their family travels to Africa (they do humanitarian work and have humanitarian businesses set up there), so I would guess that the older kids are vaccinated. The point is - I know she's crunchy about some things, but I really don't know what she thinks about circumcision. Would you say something to her beforehand and encourage her to specifically include circumcision in the lesson? I'm not sure I would. Choosing what to teaching in class is her calling and her stewardship, not mine!
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#424 of 582 Old 08-01-2007, 06:17 PM
 
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Its the one after that. So, a week from this Sunday for those of you doing Acts 5-9 this Sunday. It'll be interesting to see if circ is even brought up by the various teachers. We should do a "role call" in two weeks and see whose teachers brought it up and whose didn't.
Well, unless I get released in the next week, you can bet your bottom dollar I'll be bringing it up in my class. This should be fun.
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#425 of 582 Old 08-01-2007, 06:22 PM
 
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Would you say something to her beforehand and encourage her to specifically include circumcision in the lesson? I'm not sure I would. Choosing what to teaching in class is her calling and her stewardship, not mine!
I wasn't suggesting that ... I was just pointing out that it does specifically mention circ in the lesson plan, so it'll be interesting to see how the various teachers handle the topic, if at all.

"A mind needs books as a sword needs a whetstone, if it is to keep its edge." - Tyrion Lannister

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#426 of 582 Old 08-01-2007, 06:32 PM
 
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Ooooh, the circumcision issue amongst saints just makes my blood boil. My face is all flushed right now. I'm so mad. I need to go cool off.


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#427 of 582 Old 08-01-2007, 06:33 PM
 
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Hmmm, so does that mean every circ boy doesn't touch themselves every so often? seriously.
Nope! I have a 5yo regrettably circ'd boy who loves to play down there every chance he can get away with it. I remember reaing a statistic once (that I can't find now, sorry) that basically stated that masturbation and oral sex rates were higher in circ'd men than intact. So the whole prevention of "aberrant" behavior doesn't work. Wish I could find that link, but my main computer with all my good bookmarks is being fixed.

I have anti-circ bumper stickers, and that has initiated the conversation with a few neighbors. I'm curious to see how our lesson will go. I hope ours is this week, since we'll be camping the week after...
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#428 of 582 Old 08-01-2007, 06:37 PM
 
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Katie's experience with the LDS couple who are circing because of personal revelation goes along with what i have been thinking about personal revelation lately. is it just me or is that used as a blanket excuse to do whatever a lot? i'm not saying by any means that there is no such thing as personal revelation! DH and i have experienced this recently in a form we just can't deny. but i have had countless discussions where people just will. not. budge. and then they just say "well, it was reveled to us" and that's that because who can argue with that, you know? but here's my thing- to me circ is a no-no. period. and from the Lord a no-no. doesn't that overrule personal revelation? it's not a no-no in the same vein as rape in the church's eyes but a no-no like drinking coffee- if the coffee was made from the blood of the innocent : hopefully you understand the comparison i am trying to make. it's just that the scapegoat that personal revelation has become- and it is such a sacred gift!- unsettles me. but, then again, i am not them and i am not the Lord and it is none of my business and i shouldn't be so judgmental etc etc. but we are talking about the free agency of a child, here. the freedom to choose for themselves the condition of their gentiles. i would think that that would be enough for us to say "you know, i think maybe we should fast together about this" or some other gentle reminder that our will is not always the Lord's will. am i making any sense whatsoever? i just think some members use personal revelation as a safety so no one can comment on their choices. but i also think that maybe sometimes their will just really gets in the way. i know this has happened to me. regardless of the means of which something was personally reveled to them- or not- don't we have a right and duty as their Brothers and Sisters in Zion to say *something*? to encourage they dig deeper? but, then again, where is the line drawn there? i'm sure a lot of people would have some "helpful" tools for us to check and see if our most recent personal revelation was just that. it's such a slippery slope, isn't it?

i wish i could articulate this a bit better. i really hope i haven't offended or anything. just putting my thoughts out there. take them or leave them.

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#429 of 582 Old 08-01-2007, 06:46 PM
 
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but here's my thing- to me circ is a no-no. period. and from the Lord a no-no. doesn't that overrule personal revelation?
I am totally with you on this. We are talking about CUTTING OFF part of a person's body. One of the most sacred and sensitive parts, in fact. I just don't see how any parent can justify this decision.

This particular couple appears to have really thought this out and claim to have prayed and fasted over it for MONTHS. So asking them to reconsider or look into it deeper would have no impact in this particular case.
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#430 of 582 Old 08-01-2007, 06:52 PM
 
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Two things, and then I have to get back to doing dishes and packing for my trip:

1--dh talked with the school people in Pelican, and they will help with moving expenses, so IT'S A GO
Oh my gosh, I'm moving to Alaska. : (there needs to be a smily for fainting!)

2--On the whole circ thing...I just wanted to chip in that I would believe that there are cases (very rare) where I could see it being an acceptable idea. That is in the case of a boy who is handicapped to the degree that he will never be able to care for himself. I have a friend--LDS, and quite crunchy--who has a disabled son. If he ever leaves her care, it will be to some kind of assisted living facility, because he will never be able to really care for himself. She isn't in favor of circumcision in general, but felt that it was the appropriate choice for him, since it will always be other people helping him bathe etc. I think that, in a similar situation, I would consider it. Not for an average kid, of course, but I can see personal revelation *for* it in a case like that, kwim?
And, for those of us who didn't know, and do have a circ'd child or two...well, just remember that all will be restored in the resurrection.

(OK, this is way OT, but when I think about "all things being restored to their perfect form" in the resurrection, I always think about the people who have gone to lots of effort and money to have a sex change...they are sure gonna be in for a surprise! :: :nana: : : : )

~Jenni, rural frugal Alaskan, eternally married to Dragon
loving my wild things DS Wolf (12), 3 angels, DS Bear (6) & DS Eagle (3)
 

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#431 of 582 Old 08-01-2007, 06:55 PM
 
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Ack!!! i was wondering why it was so quiet. lost my subscription, lol.

re: circ
twice its come up in normal conversations (once while VTing, once in the nursing room) but only in passing. Both in the same context though. discussing birth/their ob/who was on call and "so and so was the one who did his circumcision".. I kept my mouth shut I did not have anything nice to say, and particularly while VT, I didn't think it was a good time to say anything. But I think the face I make when I hear people talk so nonchalantly about their son's circ is involuntary. I don't get it.. doesn't d&c 74 pretty clearly say that circumcision is to be done away with? Why is that not more widely known? Gordon B Hinkley taught that we should not pierce or tattoo our bodies. Doesn't leaving baby boys intact fall within the spirit of the law? I wonder if there's a gentle way to point this out to new moms who are expecting boys without coming across as "meddlesome"

I've always been way too chicken to nurse during meetings. And it totally bugs me that I feel that way because I will nurse anywhere else, including ward activities, or around the elders when they come to visit. My SIL can't believe I don't cover up..ever. I pointed out to her that when I go to the nursing room, its private, there's no need. And she actually said.. "well, its a quick way to clear a room" HA!! I was visiting her ward that week and when I went to nurse dd, there was one other mom..not covered up. Besides that was in Seattle. Way more progressive than here in Kentucky. And here, no one covers up in the nursing room, and I've seen some major flashes of skin, too. But I guess I better join the "don't mind the nursing room" crowd..lol. Its a nice place to sit and chat. But I do remind myself that thats not why I come to church. I think I might try nursing in RS You all have given me courage! and lately I've hardly gotten to hear any bit of the lesson because dd doesn't nap well away from home, and she's exhausted and fussy by the 3rd hour. I start my new ward next week We just moved. I'm excited to see if there's any crunchy moms in the ward. Crossing my fingers for lots of nursing babies! I wonder what the reactions will be to Allie's cloth..lol.

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#432 of 582 Old 08-01-2007, 06:57 PM
 
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i think sex changes are more to bring peace in this life. hopefully after the resurrection that pain that they endured will be healed.

Maggie, blissfully married mama of 5 little ladies on my own little path. homeschool.gif gd.gifRainbow.gif
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#433 of 582 Old 08-01-2007, 06:58 PM
 
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She isn't in favor of circumcision in general, but felt that it was the appropriate choice for him, since it will always be other people helping him bathe etc.
I can kind of see your point. But. . . . . . if we do this to/for boys/men, why not for women? Women's bodies are MUCH harder to keep clean than men's, yet I don't see anyone recommending that women in nursing homes or disabled women have their labia/etc. removed in order to facilitate cleanliness. Maybe someone who has actually worked in a nursing home could clarify.
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#434 of 582 Old 08-01-2007, 07:00 PM
 
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I can kind of see your point. But. . . . . . if we do this to/for boys/men, why not for women? Women's bodies are MUCH harder to keep clean than men's, yet I don't see anyone recommending that women in nursing homes or disabled women have their labia/etc. removed in order to facilitate cleanliness. Maybe someone who has actually worked in a nursing home could clarify.
very good point.
this sort of falls under what those parents did with their daughter by preventing her hitting puberty.

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#435 of 582 Old 08-01-2007, 07:01 PM
 
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re: circ
twice its come up in normal conversations (once while VTing, once in the nursing room) but only in passing. Both in the same context though. discussing birth/their ob/who was on call and "so and so was the one who did his circumcision".. I kept my mouth shut I did not have anything nice to say, and particularly while VT, I didn't think it was a good time to say anything. But I think the face I make when I hear people talk so nonchalantly about their son's circ is involuntary.
If I were in this situation, I would LOVE to allow myself to show my true feelings on my face and say something about how horrified I was. BUT in reality, I'm like you - I don't think I'd say anything, and I'd probably try to keep my facial expression neutral. I'd be more likely to allow myself a horrified/disgusted/sick facial expression than to say something for sure And then if the person commented on my expression, it might allow me a chance to speak up.
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#436 of 582 Old 08-01-2007, 08:46 PM
 
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I'm pretty sure that one couple didn't get a revelation, since I'm sure God wouldn't ahve said "use a Rabbi to make it extra specially Abrahamic."

ALSO, she was so mean in the forums I have a hard time imagining the spirit working through her very often, but that's just my assessment.

Sorry - still bitter about some hateful emails she sent me...

By the way, I thought I'd bring this up. She said she was dusting her fit off of me. That's both funny and shocking.

It's funny because that's a priesthood ordinance reserved for special circumstances. Women can't do it, not even sister missionaries.

It's shocking because it designates that person or household as no longer getting any more chances to hear the truth. That's why it was just taught to the apostles. It's not an action to take lightly.

I told her so and she came back with how women use the priesthood in the temple so she can do it, too.

It was really weird and I had to block her emails because I felt so sticky and wrong when I read them. Especially that one. In her mind she basically condemned me and felt she had the power and duty to do it. How creepy is that???

Now I need to watch the Simpsons so I can feel light again.
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#437 of 582 Old 08-01-2007, 08:47 PM
 
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so, we are not allowed to pierce our bodies or tattoo them, BUT we are allowed to cut off part of our son's penis? did i get that right? even THOUGH it is stated in the scriptures NOT to cut off the foreskin! but i don't think the scriptures tell us not to pierce, do they? and aren't we supposed to look to the scriptures?

for the brother that circ'd to keep his son from masterbating, good luck! if a boy wants to do it, he's going to do it no matter if he has a foreskin or not. he can pray for control over his urges, but whether has a foreskin or not is NOT going to play into his decision NOT to masterbate LOL.
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#438 of 582 Old 08-01-2007, 08:49 PM
 
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...but here's my thing- to me circ is a no-no. period. and from the Lord a no-no. doesn't that overrule personal revelation?
I agree that in most instances, the pre-written answer from the Lord is the absolute law. But we can't forget that Nephi was commanded to chop of Laban's head. In cold blood. Unprovoked. Obviously that flew right in the face of "thou shalt not kill." But I think it is a reminder that the Lord does make exceptions.
And I am VERY anti-circ. FTR

I also really struggle with knowing what to say when people non-chalantly follow the status quo. Especially VT situations. I mean, haven't I been called to help this sister? Could my knowledge of the sacredness of her body and it's ability to nourish her baby and birth it without intervention be something I'm supposed to share? But what if.... I get confused y'know?

Sunday, a sister called me to tell me about another sister she was with who was in labor. She'd been in labor for 3 days (probably prodromal and not full on labor it didn't sound like) and was getting ready to go to the hospital to see if they would DO something. (I'm compassionate service leader in the ward). Before even thinking I told her some pressure points and suggested Black Cohosh. But she took me up on the pressure points! I did fight the urge to run over there and take over. I'm a control freak, what can I say?

Nemmer, I would love to plaster my car in bumber stickers. Too bad my husband is so anti-bumper sticker! I think they are great conversation starters. I must admit, I would sorta stick out in the LDS parking lot.:
Which reminds me, I saw a perfect one today. It said, "Before embarking on a journey of revenge, dig two graves." I loved it.
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#439 of 582 Old 08-01-2007, 08:51 PM
 
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I'm pretty sure that one couple didn't get a revelation, since I'm sure God wouldn't ahve said "use a Rabbi to make it extra specially Abrahamic."

ALSO, she was so mean in the forums I have a hard time imagining the spirit working through her very often, but that's just my assessment.

Sorry - still bitter about some hateful emails she sent me...

By the way, I thought I'd bring this up. She said she was dusting her fit off of me. That's both funny and shocking.

It's funny because that's a priesthood ordinance reserved for special circumstances. Women can't do it, not even sister missionaries.

It's shocking because it designates that person or household as no longer getting any more chances to hear the truth. That's why it was just taught to the apostles. It's not an action to take lightly.

I told her so and she came back with how women use the priesthood in the temple so she can do it, too.

It was really weird and I had to block her emails because I felt so sticky and wrong when I read them. Especially that one. In her mind she basically condemned me and felt she had the power and duty to do it. How creepy is that???

Now I need to watch the Simpsons so I can feel light again.
holy crap, Alisa! what a nutcase.

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#440 of 582 Old 08-01-2007, 09:01 PM
 
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Which reminds me, I saw a perfect one today. It said, "Before embarking on a journey of revenge, dig two graves." I loved it.
My two favorites are:

Jesus is coming! LOOK BUSY!

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"Don't make Me come down there!" - GOD

"A mind needs books as a sword needs a whetstone, if it is to keep its edge." - Tyrion Lannister

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#441 of 582 Old 08-01-2007, 09:14 PM
 
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I'm pretty sure that one couple didn't get a revelation, since I'm sure God wouldn't ahve said "use a Rabbi to make it extra specially Abrahamic."

ALSO, she was so mean in the forums I have a hard time imagining the spirit working through her very often, but that's just my assessment.

Sorry - still bitter about some hateful emails she sent me...

By the way, I thought I'd bring this up. She said she was dusting her fit off of me. That's both funny and shocking.

It's funny because that's a priesthood ordinance reserved for special circumstances. Women can't do it, not even sister missionaries.

It's shocking because it designates that person or household as no longer getting any more chances to hear the truth. That's why it was just taught to the apostles. It's not an action to take lightly.

I told her so and she came back with how women use the priesthood in the temple so she can do it, too.

It was really weird and I had to block her emails because I felt so sticky and wrong when I read them. Especially that one. In her mind she basically condemned me and felt she had the power and duty to do it. How creepy is that???

Now I need to watch the Simpsons so I can feel light again.
Wow Alisa, do you know everyone in LDS NFL cyber land? A few vague references and you know who it is? Totally snark free, I'm genuinely curious.
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#442 of 582 Old 08-01-2007, 09:22 PM
 
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So after today's discussions, I updated my signature, for a while at least. Maybe it will make an impression on someone.
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#443 of 582 Old 08-01-2007, 10:22 PM
 
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RasJane, my hubby isn't a fan of bumper stickers either. I made these magnetic so we can remove them if necessary -- that helped some. But mostly I just did it and told him he couldn't stop me. (Not that I'm advocating being contentious -- but it was right for us). He is used to them by now and had even taken the role of explaining them to a few people who ask. Scout camp was probably the oddest place to discuss it! We do get some weird looks in traffic, though! I actually got one compliment on the freeway -- a car pulled alongside and the passenger said she likes them, giving me a thumbs-up. Mostly I get people pointing at my bumper and laughing, though, heehee!
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#444 of 582 Old 08-01-2007, 11:19 PM
 
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RasJane, my hubby isn't a fan of bumper stickers either. I made these magnetic so we can remove them if necessary -- that helped some. But mostly I just did it and told him he couldn't stop me. (Not that I'm advocating being contentious -- but it was right for us). He is used to them by now and had even taken the role of explaining them to a few people who ask. Scout camp was probably the oddest place to discuss it! We do get some weird looks in traffic, though! I actually got one compliment on the freeway -- a car pulled alongside and the passenger said she likes them, giving me a thumbs-up. Mostly I get people pointing at my bumper and laughing, though, heehee!
Nemmer, you live in the Provo Area, right? If so, I think Alisa and I were the one who gave you the thumbs up ... this was a little bit ago, right?

"A mind needs books as a sword needs a whetstone, if it is to keep its edge." - Tyrion Lannister

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#445 of 582 Old 08-01-2007, 11:27 PM
 
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Wow Alisa, do you know everyone in LDS NFL cyber land? A few vague references and you know who it is? Totally snark free, I'm genuinely curious.
I can't imagine there are too many people out there who receive inspiration to use a rabbi to circumcize their son to abide by outdated Abrahamic law. Maybe there's this weird group of them...we should all be afraid.

I help moderate a natural LDS mamas group that Jenni runs. Apparently this person came on two years ago and said we should all be practicing polygamy right now.
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#446 of 582 Old 08-01-2007, 11:29 PM
 
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Nemmer, you live in the Provo Area, right? If so, I think Alisa and I were the one who gave you the thumbs up ... this was a little bit ago, right?
Is it "Breastfeeding for all, Circumcision for none?" Because if it is, that WAS us. Small world!
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#447 of 582 Old 08-01-2007, 11:30 PM
 
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Wow Alisa, do you know everyone in LDS NFL cyber land? A few vague references and you know who it is? Totally snark free, I'm genuinely curious.
just not our little corner of LDS NFL heaven. she just doesn't love us.
just giving you a hard time, Alisa.

Maggie, blissfully married mama of 5 little ladies on my own little path. homeschool.gif gd.gifRainbow.gif
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#448 of 582 Old 08-01-2007, 11:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by alisaterry View Post
Apparently this person came on two years ago and said we should all be practicing polygamy right now.
and who made her Prophet? :

Maggie, blissfully married mama of 5 little ladies on my own little path. homeschool.gif gd.gifRainbow.gif
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#449 of 582 Old 08-01-2007, 11:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by magstphil View Post
and who made her Prophet? :
Didn't you get the memo?

"A mind needs books as a sword needs a whetstone, if it is to keep its edge." - Tyrion Lannister

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#450 of 582 Old 08-02-2007, 12:51 AM
 
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I'm cracking up at you guys seeing each other on the freeway. That is totally bizarre, and something I don't think I could hope to have happen to me here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alisaterry View Post
I can't imagine there are too many people out there who receive inspiration to use a rabbi to circumcize their son to abide by outdated Abrahamic law. Maybe there's this weird group of them...we should all be afraid.

I help moderate a natural LDS mamas group that Jenni runs. Apparently this person came on two years ago and said we should all be practicing polygamy right now.
Haha, the plot thickens. There are some amazing people out there. The one thing I did get out of this weird discussion with her is the idea that things will be restored. She talked about how circ was done in the Endowment House, because the saints really felt they were reestablishing Zion. And well, by that logic, polygamy was restored, and now is no more, so I think we can say that we are really done with them both now, at least on this earth. But then I began to wonder. If polygamy will exist in the next life, though whether or not you and I or anyone else of this generation will be part of it is another debate, what if circ will be as well? Just for sake of argument, mind you. My initial reaction is that circ is not an eternal principle like polygamy, and that if we know not a hair of the head shall be lost, well, a whole lot of men will be surprised come resurrection day. Not sure if this ramble makes sense. It's nearly midnight, and I've had some wicked insomnia since we got back from our vacation. Must...sleep...
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