LDS Mamas and Papas #43 - Page 9 - Mothering Forums
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#241 of 582 Old 07-23-2007, 01:30 PM
 
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ugh this is so frustrating that the subs get turned off.

My mom pre ordered me a copy of HP for my b-day and I finished the book yesterday afternoon. So good! I never really got into HP until after I watched the 1st movie.
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#242 of 582 Old 07-23-2007, 04:09 PM
 
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i guess i sort of got a bee up my butt because on the natural family living boards it feels like LDS values are not only upheld but they are censored, if you follow me and then on LDS boards natural living is looked down on and there is constant argument. i guess i've been feeling torn. does that make any sense? anyways, i was bored this morning and thought that members who focus on natural living need our own area. so i created us a forum!

please please please come and join! PM me if you're interested.
i plan on making it private (not viewable to non members of the forum) where i would have to accept all the members but for now i will keep it public so you all can see all the boards.

Maggie, blissfully married mama of 5 little ladies on my own little path. homeschool.gif gd.gifRainbow.gif
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#243 of 582 Old 07-23-2007, 05:06 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I finished Harry Potter this morning. We read half on Saturday and the other half yesterday. I ended up going to sleep, so I had to finish it this morning. I read it with dh so it was a bit of a frustrating weekend with the kids. Neither of us being very attentive. We did eat meals and gave them baths We even made it to church on time, which is weird for us.

I found out yesterday my brother is coming home early from his mission. I was really snappy with my kids because of it and I felt really bad. He is coming home tonight and I really want to go see him at the airport. He says he wants to try to go back out so he doesn't want anyone to come because he's not actually coming home from his mission. I hope he will tell my mom it's ok we come. We live closer to the airport than my parents house and I could actually see him. My kids love him to death! It was an interesting weekend.

I do love the Tennis Shoes series. I don't remember when I started reading them but I even got dh interested. They do get more dark, but it makes sense because of the topics. Kind of like HP. It got a lot darker, but made total sense I really like another series, but not sure if it's appropriate for kids. I think it's Children of the Promise. It's about WW2. I actually learned more from that series than school
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#244 of 582 Old 07-23-2007, 05:19 PM
 
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I hope he will tell my mom it's ok we come. We live closer to the airport than my parents house and I could actually see him.
That's a tough one. On one hand, you want to respect his wishes, but on the other hand, he needs family now more than ever. And like most people, he's going to insist he doesn't and won't ask for you guys, even if he really wants/needs you. Good luck!
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#245 of 582 Old 07-23-2007, 05:27 PM
 
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i'll just post the URL. i've seen other forum URLs posted before so...

http://naturalldsliving.freeforums.org/index.php

Maggie, blissfully married mama of 5 little ladies on my own little path. homeschool.gif gd.gifRainbow.gif
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#246 of 582 Old 07-23-2007, 05:34 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I just got a call from my mom. We went to go pick him up at the airport. We think we'll try to have fun things fro him because just because he's coming home early, doesn't mean he can't still be celebrated. She said he called her and specifically told her to call all of us to see who can come. Of course only me and one of my brothers can make it because the other two are out of the state, but it will still be nice to get to see him I'm so excited!
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#247 of 582 Old 07-23-2007, 07:54 PM
 
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i'll just post the URL. i've seen other forum URLs posted before so...

http://naturalldsliving.freeforums.org/index.php
Your forum sounds like a wonderful idea. I myself already moderate a NFL LDS Mama's forum so I don't think I'd have any time to contribute. However, If you belong to MySpace, I'm sure if you logged into the various LDS groups and invited them you'd get quite a few interested parties.
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#248 of 582 Old 07-23-2007, 09:11 PM
 
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thanks for the heads up, Alisa.

Maggie, blissfully married mama of 5 little ladies on my own little path. homeschool.gif gd.gifRainbow.gif
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#249 of 582 Old 07-24-2007, 10:11 AM
 
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DS was born 4/5/06 in a hospital even though I'd planned a UC. But he has truly been a blessing and I am much more prepared for the next baby.

I grew up Baptist and started studying religion when I was 10. My faith has gone through a lot of changes since then. lol I started out as purely pagan and since then have been reaching to find the truth in all faiths.
Hi Tiffani!

My name is Caitlin and I'm 24. My older son is turning three this week and we planned to do a UC with him, but then had to transfer to the hospital. My second son is 9 months old, and he was born at a hospital with midwives in an easy two-hour labor (if I'd known just how easy that one would be, that one would have been the UC! Lol!)

I was raised pagan, coverted to Christianity when I was 10, then went back to being pagan, and then joined the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints when I was 19. DH and I took the discussions and converted at the same time. We really loived our missionaries and we got baptized pretty quickly. We've been in the church about 4.5 years now.

Anyway, nice to meet you! Seems like we have a few things in common.

♥ blogger astrologer mom to three cool kiddos, and trying to figure out this divorce thing-- Blossom and Glow ♥

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#250 of 582 Old 07-24-2007, 10:14 AM
 
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Well I have great news It looks like my dh will be joining the church soon!!
Rachel, that's SO exciting!!! I know it was the best feeling in the world when DH and I were sealed together in the temple. I'm so happy for you.

♥ blogger astrologer mom to three cool kiddos, and trying to figure out this divorce thing-- Blossom and Glow ♥

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#251 of 582 Old 07-25-2007, 02:47 AM
 
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Thank you. It's still kind of up in the air. DH won't commit to a date, and at the moment we have at least 28 days to wait, anyway. lol (I'm in the middle of getting my chicken pox vaxes, so we can't even consider it until I get the last shot). My birthday is August 27th, so I'm hoping to start then, but like I said, DH refuses to commit to a date. A very spirited high needs toddler might be making him anxious. lol

As far as my family, my name is Tiffani and I'll be 22 next month. I've been married for almost 4 years to my best friend. I have 2 angels who have passed on - one when I was 17 and one in May of 05 (right before DS was conceived). DS was born 4/5/06 in a hospital even though I'd planned a UC. But he has truly been a blessing and I am much more prepared for the next baby.

I grew up Baptist and started studying religion when I was 10. My faith has gone through a lot of changes since then. lol I started out as purely pagan and since then have been reaching to find the truth in all faiths. I keep feeling called to go to the LDS church. I've only been once, and the elders really put me off by being extremely pushy...so I stayed away for awhile. But something keeps calling me. I went to a different LDS church last week and got the total opposite response. Nobody even said hello to me at all. So I had planned on going back to the original one and just resolving to be a little more firm about my boundaries with the elders, but DS didn't sleep well last night, so neither did I. I guess we'll try again next week.
Hi Tiffani! I just turned 22 in June, and have been married for a little over 3.5 years (it'll be 4 in December). My dd was born on April 5th as well, only of 2005 not 2006. We're currently TTC #2, although we're having some issues. but I totally hear you on the toddler age making it difficult sometimes to really want another!
I hope you have a better experience next time you go to Church. If it has been a while since you first went to the first ward, they could very well have at least one different Elder, if not a completly different set. And be honest with them, I'd tell them flat up that you're interested, but want to take it slowly! They should understand!

Wife to D (12/03) and totally smitten Mama to DD (4/05) DS (2/09) and expecting DD#2  6/23/11
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#252 of 582 Old 07-25-2007, 12:00 PM
 
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Yeah.. I think they would MUCH prefer you just being up front and honest about how put off you were before and wanting to avoid that this time, rather than just being avoided like they are sometimes. And it's always nice to let people know where you stand.

I hope you have a better time this visit also. Don't be put off by super friendly people though, I've found some pretty close friends who started out seeming like that on my first day of church. Some people really are just excited to get to know you.

And I too understand toddlerhood making you second guess your sanity in wanting more. And at the cute moments it makes you want to make sure you've spent enough individual baby time with them. Toddlers, gotta love them. :
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#253 of 582 Old 07-25-2007, 03:09 PM
 
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[QUOTE=Kelly1216;8724165 but I totally hear you on the toddler age making it difficult sometimes to really want another!
[/QUOTE]
My toddler is great. It' my 8 yo who makes me question having another!

I agree that you should be upfront with the missionaries. Tell them what you want and need. Really, they are just kids trying to share something they are very excited about (or should be). My missionaries were pretty good, but I kinda shocked them. I sought them out and said, "Well, I've read the Book of Mormon and now I want the discussions." I got the impression they weren't really expecting to hear that in and Idaho mission.
Thanks for the story links, NCD. They were a fun read!

I'm feeling very proud of my productive day. I told myself I had to stay off the computer until I finished my list. I did it!
Here was my list:
  • Unload and load dw
  • make breakfast
  • make jam and can it
  • clean up jam mess
  • drain and wash out swimming pool
  • pull out and compost bolted lettuce
  • water garden
  • fold laundry (2 loads)
  • clean off top of diaper cupboard
And it's only 11 am! Wow, I wish I could do this more often. Who knows, myabe it would just make me
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#254 of 582 Old 07-25-2007, 03:33 PM
 
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Hi Tiffani! I just turned 22 in June, and have been married for a little over 3.5 years (it'll be 4 in December). My dd was born on April 5th as well, only of 2005 not 2006. We're currently TTC #2, although we're having some issues. but I totally hear you on the toddler age making it difficult sometimes to really want another!
I hope you have a better experience next time you go to Church. If it has been a while since you first went to the first ward, they could very well have at least one different Elder, if not a completly different set. And be honest with them, I'd tell them flat up that you're interested, but want to take it slowly! They should understand!
Yeah, I know at least one of the elders left - he was leaving the day after they came to my house. I just...I don't know. I felt like they made it hard to be upfront. They would ask questions in a way where I felt I either had to agree with them or else they'd be offended because it would be like saying they were wrong. I'm a very big believer in everyone chooses a faith that is right for them, so just because I may not agree with you doesn't mean I think you're wrong. But a lot of people take it that way - you either agree with me or you think I'm wrong and you're better than me. I hate being put in that position. But I am really excited to go back to the first church on Sunday and see how it goes.

Momma to DS1 4/5/06 nursed with IGT to self-weaning at 27 months, DS2 1/20/09 still nursing, DS3 due late November - planning to tandem with IGT and SNS
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#255 of 582 Old 07-25-2007, 04:01 PM
 
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You might have already said it and my subs just made me miss it..

I see your a wahm... what do you do?
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#256 of 582 Old 07-25-2007, 05:01 PM
 
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You might have already said it and my subs just made me miss it..

I see your a wahm... what do you do?
I guess you're talking to me? I make cloth diapers.

Momma to DS1 4/5/06 nursed with IGT to self-weaning at 27 months, DS2 1/20/09 still nursing, DS3 due late November - planning to tandem with IGT and SNS
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#257 of 582 Old 07-25-2007, 07:21 PM
 
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Any good sites on how LDS view wifely submission? Thanks!

Momma to DS1 4/5/06 nursed with IGT to self-weaning at 27 months, DS2 1/20/09 still nursing, DS3 due late November - planning to tandem with IGT and SNS
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#258 of 582 Old 07-25-2007, 07:34 PM
 
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Any good sites on how LDS view wifely submission? Thanks!
I've been going to an LDS counselor, and we talked about this the other day. The counselor's professor went to some sort of meeting for bishops with one of the Twelve Apostles. The Apostle asked the bishops how they made decisions with their counselors. The answer was that they would discuss problems, think of solutions, etc., etc., etc., the bishop would consider all the information, but in the end the bishop would make the final decision. The Apostle said that is *not* how things are supposed to run in the Church. The bishop and the counselors should counsel together until they are all in perfect (non-coerced) agreement, just as the Twelve Apostles and Presidency of the Church do.

Here's where I'm shaky on my references. I'm not sure if the counselor's professor said that the same model should be used in marriages, or if it was the Apostle who said that. But that was the idea - that the husband and wife should counsel together and come to a joint agreement - that it is *not* the husband's role to consider the wife's advice and then make the decision.

Next time I see the counselor, I will try to clear up some specifics (who said what, when).
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#259 of 582 Old 07-25-2007, 07:35 PM
 
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I misunderstood what was meant by wifely submission. Disregard the goofball behind the curtain.

"A mind needs books as a sword needs a whetstone, if it is to keep its edge." - Tyrion Lannister

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#260 of 582 Old 07-25-2007, 08:30 PM
 
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Any good sites on how LDS view wifely submission? Thanks!
there is actually a really good article in the current Ensign. it's called "Crossing Thresholds and Becoming Equal Partners" if you ask a member i'm sure they can get you a copy.
also, i am currently reading a book called "Eve and the Choice Made In Eden" which is VERY good and addresses this. of course, i doubt you want to run out and buy a book but for future reference i think it would be beneficial.

Maggie, blissfully married mama of 5 little ladies on my own little path. homeschool.gif gd.gifRainbow.gif
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#261 of 582 Old 07-25-2007, 10:30 PM
 
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Hi, can we talk about the gospel and coercive vs. non-coercive parenting?

Non-coercive parenting is the golden ideal in which you never make your child do anything they don't want to do, with exception perhaps to truly dangerous situations where there is no time for discussion. Like when your child is standing in the road and there's a car coming. Basically, you treat your kids the way you would an equal. If your husband was standing in the middle of the road and there was a car coming you might exert control over him as well. It's about treating childen with equal respect. I think this is the same as "Taking Kids Seriously" minus the whole moral-relativity-thing (yeah, that little thing). More on that later.

Within this ideal, with some situaions, there is a gray area or middle ground. For instance, I found out recently that Gabriel is gluten-intolerant. I've had to cut out some of his favorite foods: bread, cookies, crackers, hot cereal, cold cereal. I can't allow his desire in this-- to eat something that's bad for him-- because he does not have the mental capacity to understand the consequences. However, I can try to work with him, instead of simply authoritatively exerting my force. I can talk him into eating something equally yummy that is gluten-free, I can show him my sympathy and comfort him, I can distract him, etc etc. Because it's not an immediate, life-threatening situation, we can take the time to talk about it and work it out. It forces me to get creative instead of just getting controlling and angry.

Now, I sometimes have a hard time with this, and it's hard to talk to other non-coercive moms about it, because most people who do noncoercive parenting believe in moral-relativity (the belief that no action or belief is any more valid than any other, at least as far as you know-- wait, that's a belief in itself--) and they really take the law of attraction to an extreme level, too. (Believing, for instance, that food allergies only exist if you expect them to, and that expecting your teeth will be in good health is more important than actual dental hygiene. These people would, with the best of intentions, advise me to go ahead and feed the child whatever he wants if he was really insistent.)

Here's what I DO believe: I do believe that the gospel teaches non-coercive parenting. It is laid out in the principle of free agency, the admonition against unrighteous dominion, and in the teachings of Jesus'-- against anger or offending little ones, that children are perfect, to be like little children, and that sort of thing.

So . . . I ask my kids for their input when possible. I don't make them go to bed when I decide it's time, but rather prompt them to be aware fo their tiredness and ask them if they feel ready. (It works, they were both in bed and asleep by 8:45 tonight.) I don't make them say they're sorry. I don't make them clean up. Instead I model apologizing, being gentle, and enjoying cleaning up. I pretty much don't make them do anything.

Except when I crash and burn and fail miserably, and then I could use some encouragement and to talk to someone with like views. Not that that would have any bearing on anything that happened today, no, of course not. I've only very recently started doing this type of parenting, so, I sometimes slip and forget, usually when I'm tired. Coincidentally, I was tired today.

Okay, so, it's late, I'm tired, not super articulate, but can we discuss? Discuss, discuss, please? Thanks.

♥ blogger astrologer mom to three cool kiddos, and trying to figure out this divorce thing-- Blossom and Glow ♥

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#262 of 582 Old 07-25-2007, 11:13 PM
 
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Any good sites on how LDS view wifely submission? Thanks!
NCD made a great post on LDS wifely submission, but that thread has been closed - luckily, I copied it into a blog.

http://alisaterry.blogspot.com/2007/...on-wifely.html
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#263 of 582 Old 07-26-2007, 12:15 AM
 
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Hi, can we talk about the gospel and coercive vs. non-coercive parenting?
I have all these ideals....and then real life happens.
I've got soooooo far to go.

That said, I think that non-coercive or gentle parenting is clearly taught by the gospel. On the other hand, I also believe that natural consequences (or logical ones, where not natural) are taught.
I try to look at how Christ teaches us.
1--there are rules. Christ explains the rule, and then asks us to obey.
2--He does not force us to do it, but there are likely to be consequences if we do not obey.
3--There are happy consequences when we do obey.
4--If we mess up, but feel badly about it, then Christ will give us another chance to get it right...He will re-explain as nescessary, and set us going again...He will help us work through problems we may have created for ourselves, but He rarely just makes them go away--we still get to experience the natural/logical consequences of our actions. This helps us to remember for next time.
5--If we are not repentant, Christ stands aside (sadly) and lets us deal with the mess we've made.

I think that it is DEAD WRONG to not teach a child that some things are ok and some things are not... on the other hand, I think it is also WRONG to make up rules for no reason. In our home, we try to have minimal rules. We don't invent rules unless/until there is a need for them (nothing pre-emptive, but "thou shalt not ride on the dog" became a rule after ds tried to ride the dog, which hurt and upset her...that kind of thing.) We have rules to protect our bodies, spirits, and things. I never pull the 'because Im the mommy' line, and if ds asks why he can't (or must) do this or that, I can always give him a reason. I also try to understand WHY he is struggling with the rule, and find options that will help him feel satisfied. Here are a couple of examples:
  • We can't climb up the dresser and out the window because you could fall and get hurt--if you like to climb we can go to the monkey bars in the park.
  • We need to go to bed at this time because you don't sleep in very well (he doesn't!) and your body needs the sleep in order to be healthy. If you have a hard time falling asleep at this time, we can talk about adjusting bedtime, or we can get books, music, etc to help you get to sleep.
  • If you tell me lies, then I will not be able to trust you, and will have to verify everything you tell me for a while (ie, he says his room is clean, but I will check; he says he doesn't need to go potty, but I will have him try anyway; etc)
  • I can help you be ready to go by giving you warnings (10 min left, 5 min left, 1 min left). If it is still hard for you to come, I can come hold your hand and help you walk to the car.
  • If you turn on your bedside lamp after lights-out time, then I will take the light out of your room for a night or two because you were abusing the privlige...if you respect lights-out time (ie, going to sleep when you need to) then we can extend how long you can leave it on.

Now these are some of the thigns we have for a 7yo boy. Obviously it's a little different with different ages...As he gets older, I won't set a bedtime so much, but will ask that he respect 'quiet time' after a certain hour of the night. He can stay up all night in his room if he likes, so long as he does not disrupt others who want to sleep, and so long as he is not grouchy and grumpy to everyone the following day (right now Will struggles a great deal with the grouchy/grumpy issue, so we don't waver much on bedtimes because he NEEDS the sleep).
I'm trying really hard to teach him by way of the laws of nature and with use of logic...I'd like to spare him a few hard knocks if I can, but Will at least isn't real big on 'the school of long talks' and seems to seek out the hard knocks...maybe some of his siblings will learn from him though, right?!


I guess it comes down to two things: discipline, and respect.
By 'discipline' I mean teaching him to have self-discipline. Helping him realize the reasons behind rules. After all, I don't want him to just be a little automaton who obeys mindlessly, but I do want him to have a strong inner-compass, you know?
By 'respect' I mean that I respect him--his needs, feelings, and desires. I also expect respect from him--for me, and for all those around himself. At his age, respect includes obeying when mom or dad asks him to do something...but asI said, we work hard to not abuse that. Right now we are given a position of leadership though, and we do need to make sure to teach him things.


I don't want my kids to be little parrots who chime 'please' or 'thank you' or 'sorry' as automatic get-out-of-jail free cards. If ds hurts someone, we talk about it, about how he would feel if the action had been done to him, and then I encourage him to try to help the person feel better. I dont' force, but I do encourage. He has come up with some very creative things by the way.

It's like Joseph Smith said "I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves"... right now his self-government is still struggling, so I help guide quite a bit...but I'm able to back off more and more as he grows.

jenni

~Jenni, rural frugal Alaskan, eternally married to Dragon
loving my wild things DS Wolf (12), 3 angels, DS Bear (6) & DS Eagle (3)
 

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#264 of 582 Old 07-26-2007, 03:02 AM
 
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Jenni, that is how I strive to parent. Unfortunately I fail a lot, especially when I'm tired. But I do think that for my daughter's personality, that is the most effective way of parenting her. I think that is what creates the best vibe in our home, as well as what invites and keeps the Spirit in our home. And, it is also the best way to keep my marriage in harmony. Not only using that as a parenting style, but using the very same philosophies in my marriage. I'm very headstrong and stubborn, and sometimes I don't communicate effectively with my dh. But when I'm parenting well, and parenting using the above ideals, I carry them over to the way dh and I interact more effortlessly, and our whole home is more peaceful.
I know that sounds kind of weird (like my marriage comes second) but it really is more a matter of timing. We work opposite shifts, and very rarely see each other during the week. So when we do see each other, it's easy to get nitpicky b/c we're both in our own seperate grooves. We thrive on spending time together, and rarely seeing each other isn't conducive to that.

I hope that made sense. I'm rambling.

Wife to D (12/03) and totally smitten Mama to DD (4/05) DS (2/09) and expecting DD#2  6/23/11
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#265 of 582 Old 07-26-2007, 03:05 AM
 
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Hey everyone! I like to pop in every now and then and keep up with you guys. I have a question.

My dd (2 1/2) doesn't really like to wear skirts or dresses. It usually takes a lot of sweet talking to get her dressed on Sundays. Plus she can't play as easily on/with the toys in nursury when she's in a dress/skirt. I honestly don't even care if she's in a skirt or not. While I enjoy wearing "pretty" clothes at least one day a week sometimes I would just like to wear a nice pair of slacks. Anyway - to my question. Is there an actual dress code? Would they try to deny me the sacrament (the whole reason I go to church anyway) if I wasn't in a dress? I don't mind dresses, but it's the feeling like I absolutely have to wear one that chafes, kwim? Ok, thanks!
I haven't read the responses, but I wear flowy pants sometimes. And nobody bats an eye! They are great for nursery.
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#266 of 582 Old 07-26-2007, 03:19 AM
 
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On a side note, I had the best day today!
I got a call from a sister from my ward asking if dd and I wanted to go to the beach with her and some other people. So, we went (which was huge for me b/c I'm super shy) and had a blast! There were 4 other sisters there (although 2 left after a bit) so the remaining 2 sisters and I had a picnic lunch with our kids and went swimming and played all day. We found out that we all feel the same about our ward. We all think it's rather unfriendly and hard to get to know anyone. But we were all too shy to do anything about it until today! So, I'm super excited. And, the 2 Sisters that stayed for the picnic both nurse their babies, and nursed them openly on the beach! And, all 3 of us are in Primary together (the class I teach actually has a child from each Sister in it!) so we see each other alot!
I needed this this week, and it has totally made my week, and made me so excited for Church this week! Yay!

Wife to D (12/03) and totally smitten Mama to DD (4/05) DS (2/09) and expecting DD#2  6/23/11
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#267 of 582 Old 07-26-2007, 10:35 AM
 
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Kelly, that is great! I'm so glad you had the opportunity to go and connect with those sisters. I need to do that more in my ward. Thanks for the reminder!

Caitlin. I too am trying to do this more. I have such a bad history with my 8yo. We are so stubborn and headstrong and we clash so easily. Yes, I know I'm the adult and should be the one to *be* the adult. Sadly, I lose it too often. I try each day to be better. I do use natural and logical consequences as much as possible. And I almost always give a reason for a rule or what we are doing. Unless, like pps mentioned, I am tired or pms-y and already at the end of my rope.
I have really been concentrating on giving myself time before I respond to him and that is helping.
We deal with the food allergies in both our kids. We tell them it will hurt their tummies. It took ds2 awhile, but now he asks before he eats something. "This hurt me tummy?" It's so cute. They do catch on after awhile. And with ds1, I let him eat some things that would give him a milder reaction so he would understand the consequence.
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#268 of 582 Old 07-26-2007, 12:58 PM
 
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I have such a bad history with my 8yo. We are so stubborn and headstrong and we clash so easily. Yes, I know I'm the adult and should be the one to *be* the adult. Sadly, I lose it too often. . . .

Unless, like pps mentioned, I am tired or pms-y and already at the end of my rope.
I have really been concentrating on giving myself time before I respond to him and that is helping.
I am totally with you on this My five year old and I can really provoke each other. : It's kind of unfortunate that I can't step up and be the adult more often. And unfortunately, I feel like I am at the end of my rope ALL THE TIME. My dh has essentially been gone since last October. (And I've been pregnant since November!) From October through March he drove trucks, so he was gone for two weeks at a time, then home for two days. And in March he went to Houston for work, and has been there ever since. He came home one time for 5 days. BUT he is coming home for good (we hope) this weekend!! :
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#269 of 582 Old 07-26-2007, 02:23 PM
 
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there is actually a really good article in the current Ensign. it's called "Crossing Thresholds and Becoming Equal Partners" if you ask a member i'm sure they can get you a copy.
also, i am currently reading a book called "Eve and the Choice Made In Eden" which is VERY good and addresses this. of course, i doubt you want to run out and buy a book but for future reference i think it would be beneficial.
As of next week the August Ensign should be available online at lds.org

Emily
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#270 of 582 Old 07-26-2007, 02:53 PM
 
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As of next week the August Ensign should be available online at lds.org

Emily
thanks!

Maggie, blissfully married mama of 5 little ladies on my own little path. homeschool.gif gd.gifRainbow.gif
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