~*Biblical Marriage with Wifely Submission #12 Sept-Oct-Nov*~ - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 87 Old 10-03-2008, 11:06 AM - Thread Starter
 
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http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=939145 Link to the old thread.

Where's all the submissive mamas? Let's get this thread rolling!

To my husband I am wife, to my kids I am mother, but for myself I am just me.
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#2 of 87 Old 10-03-2008, 11:33 AM
 
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Thanks! I was in absentia for awhile, since my babes are all so old, I felt less and less inspiration to come here to MDC, but now I am back cooking another one. Dh didn't want any more children, but he seems happy about this one as long as it is alone and healthy. We should find out in 2 weeks whether I have more than one in there. I don't even think about the other possibility.

Here is a great quote I found on one of my favorite blogs:
Quote:
But what else makes a godly woman?

A godly woman is (this is from my journal this week):

-Quick to listen, slow to speak, and when she does speak, it is words of wisdom, exhortation, and love.
-An eye and an ear for others, full of care and compassion
-Calm, peaceful, free of worry or stress, calming to others
-Still (she knows that He is God)
-Fruit bearing (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, meekness, self-control)
-Never hurried--even when hurried! Serene, relaxed
-Flexible according to God's leading and promptings
-Puts other's plans, comforts, and desires first
-Modest in dress, behavior, and conversation
-Meek, humble, serving, and the first to ask forgiveness
-Biblical priorities are clear and in order
-Is home, focused on husband, children
-Has rest, trust, and faith in the Lord
http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/MrsE/
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#3 of 87 Old 10-03-2008, 02:15 PM
 
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naking... :

Any misspellings or grammatical errors in the above statement are intentional;
they are placed there for the amusement of those who like to point them out.
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#4 of 87 Old 10-04-2008, 04:51 AM
 
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Subbing. :

Me, my Sweetie , DD 1 (Dec 07),  and DD 2 (Dec 09). Co-sleeping, delayed-vaxing, quia Lutherans!
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#5 of 87 Old 10-04-2008, 08:46 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by laralou View Post
Thanks! I was in absentia for awhile, since my babes are all so old, I felt less and less inspiration to come here to MDC, but now I am back cooking another one. Dh didn't want any more children, but he seems happy about this one as long as it is alone and healthy. We should find out in 2 weeks whether I have more than one in there. I don't even think about the other possibility.

Here is a great quote I found on one of my favorite blogs:

http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/MrsE/
I like the quote!

To my husband I am wife, to my kids I am mother, but for myself I am just me.
we're : with and : and
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#6 of 87 Old 10-04-2008, 10:31 PM
 
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wifely submission...its what the instruction manual tells us works. it works for me... but so many women think it means that theyre below the husband or his slave or something...and we wonder why theres a divorce epidemic!

Unvaxing, Breastfeeding, Cloth diapering, Mama cloth loving, Passionate about all things natural Mommy to CJ-8/03, AG-9/05, JJ-6/08. And married to my best friend Feb.2005!
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#7 of 87 Old 10-04-2008, 10:42 PM
 
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wifely submission...its what the instruction manual tells us works. it works for me... but so many women think it means that theyre below the husband or his slave or something...and we wonder why theres a divorce epidemic!
I think that's cause there's more opportunity to divorce, though. If it were easier back in the 1950's, I wonder how many people would have divorced.
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#8 of 87 Old 10-04-2008, 10:48 PM
 
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Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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#9 of 87 Old 10-04-2008, 10:51 PM
 
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I think that's cause there's more opportunity to divorce, though. If it were easier back in the 1950's, I wonder how many people would have divorced.
I think a lot of it also has to do with how society's attitudes towards everything has changed. When something breaks, people don't try to fix it. They go by another one! So when their marriage is broken they just throw it away. KWIM? That and I think people have been dazzled by the idea that love is just a feeling, not a verb. People don't seem to understand that you can create and grow love by serving your spouse.

I'm Holly btw. 22 yo, expecting #1 in December. Trying to be a better wife. I'll be subbing to this thread.
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#10 of 87 Old 10-05-2008, 10:55 AM
 
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subbing =)

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#11 of 87 Old 10-06-2008, 07:40 PM
 
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Hi!

I'm trying to be a biblically submissive wife to a husband who won't lead.

I'm open to suggestions.

computergeek2.gif  wife to bikenew.gif and momma to my intact boys headscratch.gif 06/19/06 and mischievous.gif 10/10/08 We delayed/selective vax; constantly wash.gif  always intactlact.gif

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#12 of 87 Old 10-07-2008, 12:05 AM
 
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Hi!

I'm trying to be a biblically submissive wife to a husband who won't lead.

I'm open to suggestions.
I'm right there with you.
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#13 of 87 Old 10-07-2008, 05:44 AM
 
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Hi!

I'm trying to be a biblically submissive wife to a husband who won't lead.

I'm open to suggestions.
What do you mean by won't lead? Is he passive and wanting you to make all the decisions or is he not saved and won't lead spiritually? Trying to understand.
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#14 of 87 Old 10-07-2008, 08:33 AM
 
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I'm here. Happy to say things have been going pretty well lately. Dh and I are both learning about how to do marriage well.
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#15 of 87 Old 10-07-2008, 11:05 AM
 
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Hi!

I'm trying to be a biblically submissive wife to a husband who won't lead.

I'm open to suggestions.
Actually, he is leading even if it is by his passiveness. Being the leader in the home isn't something a man has to try to do, it is his God given position. How they choose to lead is up to them. Does that make sense? I'll try to find an article that explains it better...
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#16 of 87 Old 10-07-2008, 11:32 AM
 
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Actually, he is leading even if it is by his passiveness. Being the leader in the home isn't something a man has to try to do, it is his God given position. How they choose to lead is up to them. Does that make sense? I'll try to find an article that explains it better...
hmmm well I think that is debatable. if he is shirking his responsibility b/c he doesn't want it then it's not leading in the sense of what it's supposed to be

that would be like saying an abusive mother is still a mother b/c they gave birth. ok yes technically... but not really.

it's sticky though. I don't believe there is one perfect answer on how to handle it. pray for sure... beyond that I think it depends on the situation. it is VERY hard to be a submissive wife to a husband who doesn't want your submission. it often puts you at odds with God but the nature of it. wanting to submit but having a husband who doesn't want it. well you could say "if he doesn't want it then I am submitting by not making him want it". but it's just not that cut and dry at all!

it is so EASY when you have a strong leading husband to say to others "be submissive even if he doesn't want it" b/c when your lead doesn't give you directions you're well... a bit lost! you can only GUESS what pleases him. you can only try your best. it will never be fully right until and unless your husband takes up his role. I really get sick of hearing this. seriously sick of hearing this. it ISN'T that easy! you're always in danger of offending either your husband or God or both.

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#17 of 87 Old 10-07-2008, 11:54 AM
 
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hmmm well I think that is debatable. if he is shirking his responsibility b/c he doesn't want it then it's not leading in the sense of what it's supposed to be

that would be like saying an abusive mother is still a mother b/c they gave birth. ok yes technically... but not really.

it's sticky though. I don't believe there is one perfect answer on how to handle it. pray for sure... beyond that I think it depends on the situation. it is VERY hard to be a submissive wife to a husband who doesn't want your submission. it often puts you at odds with God but the nature of it. wanting to submit but having a husband who doesn't want it. well you could say "if he doesn't want it then I am submitting by not making him want it". but it's just not that cut and dry at all!

it is so EASY when you have a strong leading husband to say to others "be submissive even if he doesn't want it" b/c when your lead doesn't give you directions you're well... a bit lost! you can only GUESS what pleases him. you can only try your best. it will never be fully right until and unless your husband takes up his role. I really get sick of hearing this. seriously sick of hearing this. it ISN'T that easy! you're always in danger of offending either your husband or God or both.
I don't think God is offended by your seeking ways to please a passive leader. Submission is so much a heart matter, not necessarily action based. I believe God is honored by your desire to submit just as much as He would be if you spent every moment of your day fulfilling your husband's commands.

I'm not sure if your last paragraph was directed towards me...my husband is a fairly responsible leader raised in a household with a very dominate leading father and quietly submissive (covering) mother. However I watched for 18 years as my mother tried to force my quiet, passive father into her idea of what an ideal leader should be.

I'm not saying it is right for a man to leave the wife constantly confused as to how she is to submit. But being the leader is his role, whether he plays it well or not. He is responsible to God for that, not you.
Think of it this way, you are cast in a play as Juliet. Mister is cast as Romeo. You don't really like his version of Romeo, you think it would be better if he said his lines this way, or stood just like this. But you are not Romeo, you need to focus on being the best Juliet even if it means trying to make up for Romeo's lack of acting skills. He is responsible to the director for his performance.
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#18 of 87 Old 10-07-2008, 12:55 PM
 
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that would be like saying an abusive mother is still a mother b/c they gave birth. ok yes technically... but not really.
They are still a mother, just a bad one. A husband is always a leader, whether he is leading by abdication or leading through direction. Either way he's leading whether he likes it or not.

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you can only GUESS what pleases him.
I have been working on asking deliberately what he'd prefer I do in specific situations. My husband is a good leader but he doesn't go around saying "do this THIS way" or "I want THIS for lunch not THAT" and if I take the time to ask him and do things the way he'd rather it communicates love and respect to him and I feel more confident that I'm doing things the way he prefers.

Don't know if that speaks at all to what you're going through or not, but thought I'd share.

While I was subbing anyway...

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#19 of 87 Old 10-07-2008, 01:05 PM
 
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you can try to sum it up in a simple little sentence... but it isn't that easy. if a mother is a mother regardless of how she behaves... for example, her kids will not know how to please her. they can be right in their heart but they will not make their mother pleased. it's the nature of the situation. you can please those which are not living up to their requirements, even if you want to.

that said you need to be right within your heart. you can't always please your husband/mother or who is in leadership of you but you can always AIM to, and you can always TRY to, and you can always love them and you can always always always pray for them.

I'm in no way saying that if I husband doesn't wish to lead that a wife doesn't need to aim to be in submission. that she is also let go of her responsibility. I am saying it isnt that easy and giving someone who is deeply struggling with this a pat answer of "well he's still the leader even if he isn't leading you" isn't helpful in the least. they likely know it, and have prayed and shed many a tear over it.

my dearly loved husband IS a leader. but he wasn't always. and i went through this. and i cried and prayed and God heard my prayers. I wasn't just praying for my sake. but for his and my families. it broke my heart. and to be told "well he's a leader even if you don't think he's leading" was so hurtful. I was not out to undermine his authority in anyway and it hurt being implied that I was. I wish the best for my husband and to see him not be in obedience was so hard. ecp since I had been recently been very convicted of not being in obedience myself and had made the changes.

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#20 of 87 Old 10-07-2008, 01:08 PM
 
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My husband is a good leader but he doesn't go around saying "do this THIS way" or "I want THIS for lunch not THAT" and if I take the time to ask him and do things the way he'd rather it communicates love and respect to him and I feel more confident that I'm doing things the way he prefers.
I kind of have this problem with my husband, too but a little different. I would ask him what he wants for dinner..."I don't care..." I finally decided that this falls under the catergory of being a help-meet. He would rather me relieve him of the burden of deciding what he wants for dinner than give me an outline for a specific meal. He does have special requests sometimes but now I just wait for him to tell me. This applies to most areas of our homelife, the children, the house etc. I usually just do things "my way" (unless it is something we have already gone over) and wait for him to tell me different because most of the time he doesn't really care either way and he will let me know if it is something that is really important to him.
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#21 of 87 Old 10-07-2008, 01:11 PM
 
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I don't think God is offended by your seeking ways to please a passive leader. Submission is so much a heart matter, not necessarily action based. I believe God is honored by your desire to submit just as much as He would be if you spent every moment of your day fulfilling your husband's commands.
that is the point I was trying to make.

and that when someone admits to another woman that she is struggling to submit to a husband who doesn't care for her submission it's insensitive to say the obvious - "well he's the leader!" b/c by implication of her admittance, she knows this.

My husband leads, or is learning to. I'm not implying bad things about my husband, don't misunderstand. but I have BEEN there and I remember it well. it hurt and i was always feeling torn... not always knowing what to do. when one doesn't have a leader is is VERY hard to know which way and what actions to take. often is stems from the leader not being sure what to do himself so he just doesn't lead. it hurts the whole family. Like if Romeo didn't show up to the play... well he may be under direct authority of the director but it hurts everyone involved. and what is Juliet to do? play both roles? apologize for him? walk away? hide and cry and pray? there isn't a clear answer. there are many options and not one is "good". I hope you see my point.

transtichel.gifMom of three - (2.5 yrs, 7yrs, and 11yrs). Birthing Doula, editor, and wife to my soulmate. I've had a c/s, hospital VBAC, UC and not yet decided what I'll do about this next little one

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#22 of 87 Old 10-07-2008, 01:22 PM
 
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I kind of have this problem with my husband, too but a little different. I would ask him what he wants for dinner..."I don't care..." I finally decided that this falls under the catergory of being a help-meet. He would rather me relieve him of the burden of deciding what he wants for dinner than give me an outline for a specific meal. He does have special requests sometimes but now I just wait for him to tell me. This applies to most areas of our homelife, the children, the house etc. I usually just do things "my way" (unless it is something we have already gone over) and wait for him to tell me different because most of the time he doesn't really care either way and he will let me know if it is something that is really important to him.
please don't think I'm nitpicking you!! I just am not sure you understand what I meant. oh my goodness, if I asked my husband what to do about every last thing it would drive him bonkers!! I know what dishes he likes for dinner so I make one of those. I know if he wants something else he will ask. no biggie. that is still leading - just low key leading and nothing is wrong with that! that is still leading and still being submissive.

those aren't the kinda problems with leading i meant. but when say... your husband encouraged the kids to watch inappropriate TV or lets them smoke or other such things or spends all the money on drugs. (not my husband didn't do this, but my father did) that is the kinda thing that makes being a submissive wife nearly impossible. those are the kinda of things I was referring to- not what to make for dinner sometimes it's not even things that are that extreme - but things that are borderline, like husband gambling. or your husband watching porn. or telling dirty jokes to the kids, or expecting you to hold down a job, and keep the house clean and watch all the kids and getting angry when you don't... things like that make it very hard to impossible to know how to be submissive.

this is why I say "it isn't that easy".

(p.s. please don't get the impression my husband was horrible or anything, these are mostly examples from my childhood with a few from my early marriage- before God changed us, thrown in!)

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#23 of 87 Old 10-07-2008, 01:46 PM
 
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please don't think I'm nitpicking you!! I just am not sure you understand what I meant. oh my goodness, if I asked my husband what to do about every last thing it would drive him bonkers!! I know what dishes he likes for dinner so I make one of those. I know if he wants something else he will ask. no biggie. that is still leading - just low key leading and nothing is wrong with that! that is still leading and still being submissive.

those aren't the kinda problems with leading i meant. but when say... your husband encouraged the kids to watch inappropriate TV or lets them smoke or other such things or spends all the money on drugs. (not my husband didn't do this, but my father did) that is the kinda thing that makes being a submissive wife nearly impossible. those are the kinda of things I was referring to- not what to make for dinner sometimes it's not even things that are that extreme - but things that are borderline, like husband gambling. or your husband watching porn. or telling dirty jokes to the kids, or expecting you to hold down a job, and keep the house clean and watch all the kids and getting angry when you don't... things like that make it very hard to impossible to know how to be submissive.

this is why I say "it isn't that easy".

(p.s. please don't get the impression my husband was horrible or anything, these are mostly examples from my childhood with a few from my early marriage- before God changed us, thrown in!)
I do know what you mean. I was coming on here to say that I was not trying to be insensitive either. I was trying to encourage the other poster but I was short on time and didn't say everything I was thinking.
Sometimes submitting does mean waiting for your husband to grow into a good leader, in the mean time you just have to maintain a submissive spirit even if you don't have an opportunity to submit actively. I have seen so many women who are bitter and resentful because their husband doesn't lead like Mr. So and So at church and they are constantly nagging and trying to push him into the box they think he needs to be in. (I'm not saying this is how you or the PP are, just making an observation.)
How a man leads really has a lot to do with personality. Some men are content to let the wife make most decisions without little to no input from him and some men make all the decisions without consulting the wife. I think most men fall somewhere in the middle.

As for your examples above, I don't think a wife should ever submit to sin. If your (general "you") husband is encouraging you or your children to sin then it is better to obey God directly.

And I know it is never easy! Even with both my husband an I having a fairly good understanding of husband/wife roles we still have our bad days. After nine years we still have plenty of room for improvement!
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#24 of 87 Old 10-07-2008, 01:57 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Hey- I step away for a minute and a huge discussion crops up!

I think both sides that are being presented and close- and so hard. The issue of the husband not wanting or being able to lead is a very undermining and destructive one- especially because if you talk to most people it isn't a problem at all. And I think not acknowledging it is so hurtful for the parties involved. Most people think that a woman being the leader is fine or even better.
Prayer is the first step, as it's been said. God is there. But what then?
Just as God has given your husband the command to lead he has given you the command to serve and love your DH- and your family. And if the husband can't or won't lead, you keeping the family afloat and together IS serving God and your husband. Do not feel like you need to idly stand by while the world crashes down.

To my husband I am wife, to my kids I am mother, but for myself I am just me.
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#25 of 87 Old 10-07-2008, 02:58 PM
 
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it seems we all see each other's POV. =)

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#26 of 87 Old 10-07-2008, 03:05 PM
 
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What an interesting thread.

One of my favourite verses from the bible is "She considers a lot and she purchases it".

And submission is very interesting in relationships where people are "equal". DH and I both work and make the same amount of money. DH does all the cooking and I do most of the cleaning. We are both easy going. DH is definitely not a natural born leader.

In our first year of marriage our pastor said this was the key to a happy marriage. Personally I thought his wife came across as unhappy and abused so I was not too keen on taking advice from him. But I did know it was biblical.

So I try to think how I submit as a wife. I always ask and listen to DH before doing or buying anything different. I think this shows him respect and that I value his opinion. You would be surprised how many of my peers don't do this. Also, I know if my heart if we ever had a disagreement on something that if after talking it out I would submit.

So I have no clue if I am an actual submitting wife or if our relationship is just not like that.
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#27 of 87 Old 10-07-2008, 05:11 PM
 
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So I have no clue if I am an actual submitting wife or if our relationship is just not like that.
submission and leadership can take on so many different forms. all in all i think a lot of it depends on if your husband feels submitted to, and you feel lead. of course there is more to it than that but it's a starting place.

transtichel.gifMom of three - (2.5 yrs, 7yrs, and 11yrs). Birthing Doula, editor, and wife to my soulmate. I've had a c/s, hospital VBAC, UC and not yet decided what I'll do about this next little one

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#28 of 87 Old 10-07-2008, 09:57 PM - Thread Starter
 
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submission and leadership can take on so many different forms. all in all i think a lot of it depends on if your husband feels submitted to, and you feel lead. of course there is more to it than that but it's a starting place.

To my husband I am wife, to my kids I am mother, but for myself I am just me.
we're : with and : and
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#29 of 87 Old 10-07-2008, 10:12 PM
 
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God has put this subject on my heart lately. This is going to be a huge change for us. I'm pretty close to being the anti-submissive wife LOL Believe me, I'm praying about it. Where did everyone start? My husband is a believer, but he'd probably think I was crazy if I told him that I think I should be biblically submissive.

He hates that I lead, though. But OTOH, I know there are times (and areas) in which he'd much rather I lead. What about ways to raise the children? (i.e., I've done all the research and praying about vaccination, I made thedecision and he's not 100% comfortable with it - he's for it because I'm for it - otherwise he just doesn't care). In Crystal Lutton's book, "Biblical Parenting," she mentions that it's bibically based for mothers to direct the care of young children and girls, and for men to direct the care of older boys.

Am I rambling? I'm rambling aren't I?
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#30 of 87 Old 10-07-2008, 11:12 PM
 
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Think of it this way, you are cast in a play as Juliet. Mister is cast as Romeo. You don't really like his version of Romeo, you think it would be better if he said his lines this way, or stood just like this. But you are not Romeo, you need to focus on being the best Juliet even if it means trying to make up for Romeo's lack of acting skills. He is responsible to the director for his performance.
But if Romeo is missing his cues completely, or showing up late for rehearsal, or saying his lines in Portuguese, or...(sorry, I was a theatre geek so I loved that analogy just a little too much! ) Anyway...here's my point:

Isn't part of being a helpmeet gently encouraging each other to properly fulfill our roles? I don't think there is anything wrong (or un-submissive) with kindly, lovingly, and gently prodding our husbands to be the spiritual leaders of our homes. They're mere mortals just like us, and sometimes need a loving reminder that they preside over the family. I have never offended DH by doing this. On the contrary, he seems to really appreciate the little reminders of who he is, of who God intends him to be.

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but things that are borderline, like husband gambling. or your husband watching porn.
Maybe I'm about to open a can of worms here...but I would not consider watching pornography a borderline problem. Pornography destroys men and their families. It can be just as addicting as drugs and, when not repented of and taken care of, devastate the lives of those it touches. And, in the opinion of DH and me, it's a violation of the marriage covenant.

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I know there are times (and areas) in which he'd much rather I lead. What about ways to raise the children? (i.e., I've done all the research and praying about vaccination, I made thedecision and he's not 100% comfortable with it - he's for it because I'm for it - otherwise he just doesn't care). In Crystal Lutton's book, "Biblical Parenting," she mentions that it's bibically based for mothers to direct the care of young children and girls, and for men to direct the care of older boys.
Part of good leadership is delegation. Delegating the job of researching vaccines for example, is not failure to lead. DH can't do everything right?! It would be a little different if he wanted to discuss things, and study things, and you refused. But that's not what's happening. Nor are you demanding he allow you to unilaterally make such decisions. He's simply delegating a family job to you. Him trusting your ability to make the best choice for your children is no different than a business leader trusting his engineers to design the most efficient machine, kwim?

I've never heard of Crystal Lutton. But she seems like a smart cookie. In our church we believe that "By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners." So I would agree that it makes sense for a mother (who I believe God has given special abilities tailored to the nurture and care of children) would be delegated tasks in relation to that.
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