Animal rights vs. meat eaters... - Page 6 - Mothering Forums

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#151 of 169 Old 02-08-2004, 06:15 PM
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I would suppose so Mona.
I guess you could say I wrote a "low" post in response to another "low" post. Perhaps by now you had some time to think that it isn't worth going into the "territory" that you did when replying so badly to my post.
"I mean you can't be serious, can you?" (laughing, jumping up and down).
I suppose you actually had nice intentions although I took it differently.
You overstepped the bounderies of a polite discussion. I don't see why you would intentionally try and ridicule someone else for the opinions that person holds...

TingTing--I'm not "against" vegetarians or vegans. It isn't personal. It's the way people argue for it, making it sound like it's the right thing for everyone, disregarding facts, anthropological studies, personal accounts etc. I was merely arguing some of the things you claimed. I think I might have misunderstood you somewhat. I got the notion you were saying that no human actually needs meat based on your freinds' reviews. Sorry.
I also do not argue that we turn we back to a hunting life-style. I don't know how you gathered that from what I asked about what would happen if it suddenly became illegal to keep farm animals. It was a matter of how far some people would go to get the meat they need.
I'm fairly realistic and don't see that we would go back to that life-style anytime soon, and definitely not by choice. However there are many advantages to this life-style, no doubt.

CanOBeans-- I like what you said about cows not naturally competing with plant cropping or the environment.
It's tiresome to see how people keep arguing against animal farming using only stats from factory farming which is clearly destructive in every way.

Lots of vegan activists eat non-organic food that obviously has contributed to killing off animal life, and destroying soil fertility. It's amazing how life is so circular and no matter how fast you're trying to run there are things you just can't escape.
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#152 of 169 Old 02-08-2004, 07:10 PM
 
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Originally posted by CanOBeans
But cows are not meant to eat grain. They are meant to eat grass. And much of the land on this Earth that can support grass for grazing animals cannot support plant crops. So if farm animals are raised on their natural diet, using land that is not useful for growing crops, then there is no conflict between raising animals, growing crops, and protecting the environment.
I think the issue is that cutting down rainforest so that cows have food to eat is not good for the enviornment, and for the whole planet in general. The conflict, is that an overabundance of land is used to "raise" cows. True, some land is not suitable for crops. But that land might not be suitable for grasses for cows to eat upon either, i don't know.

Do we agree that if the land is suitable for crops, cows should not be utilizing it? Or am i reading too far into your arguement?
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#153 of 169 Old 02-08-2004, 11:36 PM
 
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Okay, Anothermama first:
You stated exactly what I am trying to say. Some people will eat meat.... it is beyond the beyond to think that everyone will be veggie or vegan. I am simply stating the fact that we cannot support the massive amts. of meat and dairy consumed in the US without doing serious damage to the environment. Cow farms, hog farms and the like are *already* totally destroying our ecosystem. Any website on ecology would tell you so. We chop down thousands of acres of valuable rainforest every year to raise cattle, as is.
My point was: how do we manage to balance it all? Be a good steward of the earth by not poisoning our planet and causing undue suffering to animals while, at the same time, providing meat and dairy for the masses. The only logical conclusion to this would be: those of us that can cut down on - or cut out totally - meat and dairy consumption while advocating for cruelty-free farming methods, should. It would be a huge step forward in making our planet a better, cleaner, happier place to live.
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#154 of 169 Old 02-09-2004, 03:25 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally posted by candiland
Okay, Anothermama first:
You stated exactly what I am trying to say. Some people will eat meat.... it is beyond the beyond to think that everyone will be veggie or vegan. I am simply stating the fact that we cannot support the massive amts. of meat and dairy consumed in the US without doing serious damage to the environment. Cow farms, hog farms and the like are *already* totally destroying our ecosystem. Any website on ecology would tell you so. We chop down thousands of acres of valuable rainforest every year to raise cattle, as is.
My point was: how do we manage to balance it all? Be a good steward of the earth by not poisoning our planet and causing undue suffering to animals while, at the same time, providing meat and dairy for the masses. The only logical conclusion to this would be: those of us that can cut down on - or cut out totally - meat and dairy consumption while advocating for cruelty-free farming methods, should. It would be a huge step forward in making our planet a better, cleaner, happier place to live.
Well your kinda right...

Yes, the best way is for those who CAN to DO.


The next step is to educate.....because education on responsible eating would likely lead to MORE people who would choose to cut down or eliminate meat from their diet.

BUT.....the thing that kills the environment is mass farming, the kind McDonalds gets THEIR beef from. I fully believe that it's possible to support the ammount of animals we'd need in a envorninmentally responsible way...it just doesn't make nearly the profit and thats why it isn't done. But I personally bet we have enough land in the US to let enough cows and pigs and sheep graze and not be a detriment to the earth. A few examples have already been pointed out in this thread of how that could be and has been done. The environmental issue would be a non issue if everyone was responsible about their meat eating, ate less if they could, and those who did eat a lot demanded better sources.

p.s.
I LOVE your new sig line....
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#155 of 169 Old 02-09-2004, 05:04 PM
 
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I wonder if we could find that info. online re. the environmental impact of freerange animals. Yeah, we could. But I'm feeling too lazy right now!
Thanks for the compliment. First the full moon, then aunt flo....... I need a break from this emotional malestrom! Ack!
Hey...... I wonder if we can kill this thread? It's slowed down quite a bit.:LOL
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#156 of 169 Old 02-09-2004, 05:37 PM
 
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Kill this thread? Then what would I do with all my extra popcorn?
Maybe it's time for a whole new thread for anyone who has an opinion about the rights of plants. I'm not being cheeky...has anyone read 'The Secret Life Of Plants' or anything else about the research done on plant sentience?
It's really interesting.... they hook houseplants up to these sensors and then measure the response they have to being mistreated. The plants react very strongly not only to people hurting them, but to people's INTENTIONS to hurt them. They seem to have a kind of intelligence that isn't localized in a central nervous system but that exisits holographically throughout the whole organism...

Umm, I would start a thread about it except that I'm sure it would be too wingy for most people to respond to so I'll just throw it in here. We are so focused on animal life because animals are like us and we understand them more, but I really think plants are equally worthy of such discussion. Not all plant-consumption involves killing them, as they specifically grow fruits, nuts and grains for us with no harm to them. What would this style of eating be called, I wonder.... totally death-free...
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#157 of 169 Old 02-09-2004, 08:16 PM
 
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Go for it, Snowy Owl - I for one would like to learn more and it would make for some interesting discussion!

Are you familiar with The Arrogant Worms' song "Carrot Juice Is Murder"?
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#158 of 169 Old 02-10-2004, 03:11 PM
 
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I swore off this thread a few days ago, thought it had run its course, but I had to come back for a peek....

On the subject of the environmental impacts of eating meat, I found this article on Grist magazine today: Low carb diets have a high impact on the planet
Snowy Owl, I just read about plant sentience in Derrick Jensen's book, A Language Older Than Words. Apparently the scientist who did the experiments is all but a pariah in the scientific world; it's just too way out for most people to accept, and the very nature of the scientific method makes his work impossible to replicate, thus accept scientifically. But Jensen's account of it is fascinating and believable. He also talks about interspecies communication among animals. I wish I had a copy of the book in front of me so I could quote passages; I recommend it highly.
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#159 of 169 Old 02-10-2004, 05:00 PM
 
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Thanks for the recommendation. I don't think these things can really be proved because our methods are just too crude. Empathy is not very scientific.
The only thing I think it is fair to ask, really, is that we have empathy and humility for the creatures who give their lives for our food. We all come from the same place, and go to the same place, do we not?
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#160 of 169 Old 02-10-2004, 10:02 PM
 
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We all come from the same place, and go to the same place, do we not?
Uh-oh........... now you're gonna get us moved to Spirituality!:LOL

About the plant thing...... It's a well-documented fact that trees communicate with one another. I saw it on Discovery channel. I can't remember for the life of me what they communicate..... I want to say that if, for example, one tree gets some sort of tree disease it will communicate it to the others and then.........
oh, hell. It was fascinating, but now I can't remember:LOL My brains are being sucked through my boobies!
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#161 of 169 Old 02-10-2004, 10:43 PM
 
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Originally posted by candiland
Uh-oh........... now you're gonna get us moved to Spirituality!:LOL


oooo....sorry, I get so corny sometimes......
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#162 of 169 Old 02-10-2004, 10:50 PM
 
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Originally posted by Snowy Owl

The only thing I think it is fair to ask, really, is that we have empathy and humility for the creatures who give their lives for our food. We all come from the same place, and go to the same place, do we not?
I aggree 100% percent!!!
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#163 of 169 Old 02-10-2004, 11:13 PM
 
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My brains are being sucked through my boobies!
i'm right there with you sister!!!
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#164 of 169 Old 02-10-2004, 11:19 PM
 
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Don't mess with an Aries redhead [/B]
I'm an Aries blonde & right there with ya sister !

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#165 of 169 Old 02-11-2004, 12:39 AM
 
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Snowy Owl - I was joking! I don't think it's corny at all.
Ah, and a fellow Aries right here on this board..... can you feel the heat????:LOL
And I'm reassured to hear that I'm not the only one with a brain malfunction due to bf'ing. I'm pretty sure I have a couple of braincells left, 'cuz I can still type fine.......:
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#166 of 169 Old 02-11-2004, 01:27 AM
 
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Originally posted by candiland
And I'm reassured to hear that I'm not the only one with a brain malfunction due to bf'ing. I'm pretty sure I have a couple of braincells left, 'cuz I can still type fine.......:
count me in on the b/f'ing brain malfunction too

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#167 of 169 Old 02-11-2004, 07:59 AM
 
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[The only thing I think it is fair to ask, really, is that we have empathy and humility for the creatures who give their lives for our food. ]

I find animals 'giving' their lives for food a bizarre concept. How can it be seen as a willing act? I don't think you can have respect for an animal, if ultimately you're going to kill it, or have it killed on your behalf.
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#168 of 169 Old 02-11-2004, 09:45 AM
 
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[The only thing I think it is fair to ask, really, is that we have empathy and humility for the creatures who give their lives for our food. ]

I find animals 'giving' their lives for food a bizarre concept. How can it be seen as a willing act? I don't think you can have respect for an animal, if ultimately you're going to kill it, or have it killed on your behalf.
finona2-- i agree w/ your point. no animal would willingly live a life of torture, IMO.
I thought that the original point by Snowy Owl was meant for eating plant based foods. I do consider plants to be creatures. Maybe i read too far into that?
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#169 of 169 Old 02-11-2004, 12:27 PM
 
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To clear up any confusion, the debate about animal rights had kind of fizzled out, almost every point had been made, and I kind of went on a tangent about how thre is reason to believe that plant life has sentience (varying levels as there is varying levels of animal sentience). And I implied that people are only concerned with if it is 'right' to take the life of animals for food, but don't question the morality of taking the life of sentient plant life for food.
I came to the conclusion that IF your eating is going to take a life, whether plant or animal, have respect and humility.

I could also delve into the territory of profit-driven crop farming techniques that eradicate diversity, overuse pesticides, pillage the earth of it's nutrients and tamper with genetics. That is just as much a crime in a different way as factory farming. The suffering of animals, who are like us, is just easier to recognize and more immediately cruel.

Our main problem is that we generally lack a certain kind of vital intelligence called 'empathy', which is the source of many of the problems in the world. People are suffering terribly at the hands of others, as are animals and plants, as is the Earth which I believe to be sentient. Having respect for a life we take to feed our own is a start. Having a bit of humility would help us with our 'masters of the earth' ego-trip. I don't know, where DOES it start?
Yep, totally OT, we'll be moved to Spirituality any minute now.....

I apologize in advance to anyone I flaked out.
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