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Animal rights vs. meat eaters...

8K views 168 replies 34 participants last post by  Snowy Owl 
#1 ·
Lets try to be constructive here, shall we???


Is is possible for someone to be an "animal activist" and still be a meat eater?

If so, how come?

If not, why not?

Do YOU consider yourself an animal rights/welfare activist? Do you eat meat?

(p.s....I hope it's ok I started a NEW thread on this, since it seems to stray pretty far from just boycotting one restaurant)
 
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#2 ·
My answers: (which I'd like to preface by saying that I'm posting this under the assumption that it will not get me flamed or called names, ok? ok!)

I think it's possible to be an animal welfare activist and still eat meat.

First of all, I'll say that I believe that most people *need* the protein in meat. I'm not bashing vegetarians AT ALL and I am fully aware that it's possible to be one and be VERY healthy. But, my *personal* belief is that humans are meant to be omnivores to be healthy. This is based on college education and, yes, a little on religion.

I think that if animals are raised in a humane and safe way, that is an ok way to raise them if their purpose is to be food eventually. I was raised next door to a chicken farm, so maybe thats why I feel this way.

I don't think it's ok to raise animals (or ANY living thing) in inhumane conditions at all. I also don't think it's ok to drug up the animals you eat.

I think animal activism is far more encompassing than just animals that are raised for food. When you talk about animal rights and animal welfare, thinks like wildlife extinction and domestic pet over population need to be taken into consideration as well. There are more animals in the world than just pigs, cows, and chickens.

I think the bottom line is respect...if you can be respectful of other living in things thats the most important thing to me I suppose. If I couldn't buy free range or organic meat, I'd probably go veg anyways. The mass production way of raising farm animals is not respectful.

edited to chage some terminology on the "advice" of Ravens post.
 
#3 ·
In a word, YES. I am very much opposed to factory farming, but I am not opposed to eating meat, hunting for the purpose of putting food on the table, fishing for the same purpose, keeping animals as pets under humane conditions, or keeping animals under humane conditions for the purpose of killing them for meat.

I consider myself an animal WELFARE activist, but not an animal RIGHTS activist. That's a whole other can of worms. And I feel this distinction distances me from PETA and other animal advocate groups.

Interesting question!
 
#5 ·
First, there is a difference, philosophical and practical, between "animal welfare" and "animal rights." One cannot be an animal rights activist and eat meat. The two things are mutually exclusive. Animal rights are about giving equal consideration to the interests of animals (their desire to avoid pain, live in natural conditions, and avoid slaughter). Animal rights people oppose the abuse of animals and the exploitation of animals. So, the notion of raising animals for "humane" slaughter is not one that an animal rights proponent would support. On the other hand, many people support "animal welfare" which is about making the conditions of animals who are being exploited and abused a bit more comfortable, and "humane." So, one may be a supporter of animal welfare and continue to eat meat. Lots of "animal people" who rescue dogs, cats, and wildlife fall into this catogory. Sometimes, they finally "get it" and realize that their beliefs and behavior are inconsistent, but not always. Of course anyone is free to call themselves whatever they please, but technically, you are not an animal rights activist/supporter if you eat meat. BTW, there is plenty of evidence to refute the notion that people "need" to eat meat. In fact, the more meat and dairy a population consumes, the more disease it has. This is incontrovertable. Anyone could do one hour of research and find this to be true. But, it is not the main point of this thread, so I will leave it rest.
 
#7 ·
I think that the previous posters have hit the nail on the head--you can be a supporter of animal welfare and still enjoy a thick juicy steaks (to even it out, I could not go without my steamed green beans either).

DH and I have recently started on the path to raising all of our own meats. We raised/butchered 72 chickens two summers ago and will do so this upcoming summer, 26 turkeys then too, currently two steers and a bunch of goats & sheep for food as well. I AM NOT STATING THIS TO TORQUE ANYONE OFF! We are raising our own meats because:

1. Most all of the meat that is commercially raised has been through feedlots, where they are not fed the diet nature intended for them, and have to slop around in their own filth much of the time.

2. Much of the meat has come from animals who were given growth hormones, which is just silly 'cause if nature wanted them to be another 70 lbs larger, NATURE WOULD'VE MADE THEM THAT WAY! (Although you don't have to give Cornish Cross chickens growth hormones, 'cause they just pack on the weight anyway...they end up being the size of small turkeys if you let them go almost to the end of their life span).

3. Except for organic meat, critters are given antibiotics and dusted with pesticides to keep the insects off of them.

All of our critters are given room to run and are fed according to what they need at the time, so we are treating our animals as best as we can. But we are raising them with the purpose of eventually finding them in our freezer. That's just the way it is here.

I respect vegetarians for the choices that they make (one of my best friends went veggie because of the way that meat is raised commercially--and I support her in her decision), and hope that vegetarians (and vegans too!) can respect DH and I for the decisions we make.
 
#8 ·
I actually think this is a very valid question!

I am supportive of treating animals humanely, however, I also eat meat. Granted, our family buys organic, mostly locally grown meats and my dh bow hunts (which he considers to be very sacred).

I think it's along the same lines of "are you a feminist if you stay home with your kids?" - tight definitions don't serve any cause well. Raising awareness all the way around does.

Even if the animal-rights people would love to convert all omnivores to herbivores, that probably won't ever happen. However, small steps (like buying humanely raised animals) will.

I don't think we, as humans, NEED meat. Meat has, up until the 50s, been a scarce treat among humans. It took alot of time and energy to kill an animal and if you didn't raise it yourself, chances are you split it with others that helped you kill it.
 
#9 ·
I believe that one can be an animal rights activist and still eat meat. Honestly, I'm pretty tired of being judged because I eat meat.

WE only eat hunted or free-range, humanely killed, organic meat, which is neither inexpensive or easy to find. We have visited the facilities where the animals are housed and where they are killed.

I look at it this way: in nature, an omnivore or a carnivore kills (and not terribly humanely) and eats what it needs to survive. If we humans are no different from animals, why must we eat differently? Why should we be judged and made to feel guilty for this practice? I agree that this is about respect.

Just my opinion. No malice intended.

With respect,

Emily
 
#10 ·
Just a side note: humans are not, biologically, meant to eat meat. A bit of research on our teeth and on our digestive systems will show you this. In fact, if you look at societies around the world, the higher the consumption level of dairy and meat, the shorter the people's lifespans are and the more diseases they have as a general population.
Okay, anyway, now that I've spouted my little piece of truth, I do eat poultry and organic dairy. (I visited "our" dairy farm with our kids over the summer... it's awesome, and the animals are very well cared for
). But I do know that this isn't the healthiest choice for me. I just happen to be a food weakling... okay, I loooove to eat, and my stomach often wins over my brain!

Oh, and about protein requirements.... during the Irish potato famine, the population was tested for various nutritional deficencies. While they were severely deficient in many areas, they were *not* protein deficient. Until recently, the majority of our protein has, in fact, come from plant-based sources.
"Getting enough protein" is a huge myth western culture has bought into. In fact, some people believe this so strongly that they think they *feel* protein deficient even when they're not. It's kind of like a placebo effect.
 
#11 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by candiland
Just a side note: humans are not, biologically, meant to eat meat. A bit of research on our teeth and on our digestive systems will show you this. In fact, if you look at societies around the world, the higher the consumption level of dairy and meat, the shorter the people's lifespans are and the more diseases they have as a general population.
Okay, anyway, now that I've spouted my little piece of truth, I do eat poultry and organic dairy. (I visited "our" dairy farm with our kids over the summer... it's awesome, and the animals are very well cared for
). But I do know that this isn't the healthiest choice for me. I just happen to be a food weakling... okay, I loooove to eat, and my stomach often wins over my brain!

Oh, and about protein requirements.... during the Irish potato famine, the population was tested for various nutritional deficencies. While they were severely deficient in many areas, they were *not* protein deficient. Until recently, the majority of our protein has, in fact, come from plant-based sources.
"Getting enough protein" is a huge myth western culture has bought into. In fact, some people believe this so strongly that they think they *feel* protein deficient even when they're not. It's kind of like a placebo effect.
Hrm...I actually did A LOT of research into this issue in college (a VERY weird sociology study!) and it's pretty well known that humans ARE omnivores...i.e. meant to eat both meat and plants.
Especially based on our teeth....we have flesh ripping teeth as well as grinding teeth....something generally found only in omnivores and carnivores.



I think that particular aspect may be an "agree to disagree" issue...I have loads of my super crunchy friends who think the same thing...the humans aren't always meant to eat meat. I've seen their research and while I can't refute it, I also don't think it's a complete picture. What I'm trying to say is that from what I've seen there is enough evidence to support both arguments to a degree.

ANWAYS!

re Ravens comments: I really disagree with the notion that someone who eats meat is leading a contridictory life if they think they are doing other help to other kinds of animals. Basically, thats saying that we can't do ANYTHING with animals they don't want done.....like fence them in, domesticate them, etc etc. So, I guess if thats what she means, then I would agree with that...but I don't agree thats best, especially in this day and age.

I am one of those "animal rescue" people (just got back from a shelter trip, as a matter of fact...). I see it the same. My advocating for better and more humane conditions for feed animals is in the same vein as my advocating for better and more humane conditions for domesticated pets (two issues that take up a lot of our time...*sigh*). Sure, maybe chickens don't want to be taken out and eaten....and I'm sure my lab would tell you he'd rather I not leash him and he'd like to roam the neighborhood freely. Living in america today, some things just aren't reasonable....

And another thing....I always think it's better to help a person do better than chastize them for what they AREN'T doing. Every little bit helps, as they say. If someone IS going to be a meat eater, isn't it better they support good farming practices and humane treatment of the animals than they just say "EFF IT!!!!!" and eat Mc D's chicken every day?

From what I've seen, and in my personal experience, people who are educated about the issue not only tend to eat more responsibly, but they usually eat LESS meat, too.

Just a few more thoughts....
 
#14 ·
I think the OP raises an interesting question. Must one go "the whole hog" to be useful to the cause? I tend to think no... one does not. I think in fact that a moderate person whose attitudes towards animals is perhaps closer to the mainstream than PETA's has a very good chance of slowly changing peoples minds about some of the worst abuses of animals than someone who is likely to be viewed as an extremist. It is also troubling to be told that if you don't support an issue exactly the same way that someone else does you 'don't support it' or your support is empty and meaningless. I reject that position utterly. And, while the topic at hand in this case is animal welfare I think the same is true of a great many issues.
 
#15 ·
well, I agree that the thread title is a wee bit immflamatory, but I also think this is a valid and interesting question. Brings to my mind questions of how we live our lives, about are we or are we not dogmatic, etc. I've known a lot of vegans who were so self righteous about it that it wasn't worth spending time with them...never knew when I would forget who I was dealing with and put honey in my tea or forget I was wearing a thrift store sweater made of wool. Stopped being vegan in part due to this kind of stuff. No one changes their habits or lifstyle because someone tried to shame them or make them feel like crap.

However, I do not eat meat, personally I'm pretty grossed out by it. But I do think it is possible to eat meat and still consider life sacred. I don't know about this animal rights vs animal welfare, I kind of think its semantics and hair splitting.

I really try to approach the world with the idea that all life is sacred and must be treated as such. I think, based on experience, that it is possible to raise and kill and animal for food in a respectful manner.

I think if people are going to eat meat, they should be involved in the animals life and death. I think if people can't hack the reality of killing a live creature in order to eat their steak, maybe they sholdn't eat meat. You can't honor a life if you don't acknowledge it.

I also think our society is sick, sick sick in the ways we raise and slaughter meat as though the animal were not alive, not aware. I agree with the sentiment expressed in Oatmeal's signature, that the ways we treat animals directly contributes to the inhumane ways we treat other people.

Hmmm. that was more than neccessary to answer the question, Huh!
 
#16 ·
isn't it a matter of degree? insofar as you do not contribute to animal suffering you are an 'animal rights activist'..? i don't necessarily consider myself an extremist, but i think if you're doing all you can to give an animal a happy life, and then come at it with a cleaver in the end.. well, that's pretty ironic, isn't it? to say the least..

hmm.. i still think no being has a right to make such choices for another being. what if aliens took over the planet and stole all of our children, cared for them, yet planned to fatten them up to eat. would that be okay, so long as they were tended to in a (relatively) respectful manner throughout their lives..?
 
#17 ·
I don't know if it's exactly ironic. I think it is an improvement. As long as many people are unwilling to budge on the eatting of meat there should be some focus on the well being of the animals while they are alive. I mean... everyone's going to die. Does you knowing that you will die one day make you feel like you deserve a poor quality of life until then? Don't we try to be humane to humans who are in prison, even those on death row? I think bringing people around on that point is a reasonable starting place. I guess I see any kind of change that activists work for to be more likely to occur slowly and by degrees. You are far more likely to get a dedicated omnivore to care about decent quality of life, cleanliness issues, etc than you are to convince her that she should go vegan tommorow. One step at a time, is all I am saying.
 
#18 ·
of course you are right.. and your perspective is probably more valid considering the amount of people ignorant to what happens in factory farms.. i still do think the end goal should be kept in mind, however, which to me is that no animals be harmed at all, for any reason.
 
#19 ·
Quote:
... by sadie_sabot
... the ways we treat animals directly contributes to the inhumane ways we treat other people ...

Hitler had a dog. A German shepherd. He loved his dog very much, and was by all accounts very gentle with him.

I was going to label this "off topic," but I'm not sure that it is.
 
#20 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by sadie_sabot


I think if people are going to eat meat, they should be involved in the animals life and death. I think if people can't hack the reality of killing a live creature in order to eat their steak, maybe they sholdn't eat meat. You can't honor a life if you don't acknowledge it.

I agree....and for me *personally* I feel thats probably why I am so comfortable eating meat....as a kid, the MAJORITY of the meat we ate was either something we or a neighbor raised. I was raised in a very rural environment with lots of 4-h friends and farms around.....so I was raised KNOWING who it was I was eating. I would help my neighbor slaughter chickens when it was time. She was pretty cool in retrospect....it always took forever because she'd take em out one at a time because she didn't want them to see what happened to their "friends" first.

Anyways....I think a lot of people in this country are kind of trained not to think of the food as an animal, just something that came from the grocery store, like their soda or cookies. And I think that contributes to our overall food issues....not just with meat, but with the way produce and such are processed as well. And so I'm gonna go with what someone else said....I personally feel it's better to try to take those small steps. I'm not going to convince anyone to go veg today, but I *have* conviced one or two people in my day to at least try out buying their meat at the co-op here rather than Safeway, and thats a small step I think.

(Sadie....I didn't mean the title to be inflamatory....it's one of those things where I start typing how I talk and online the tone just isn't the same....I think I need online tone typing lessons or something....hope you weren't offended.)
 
#21 ·
Interesting question...

To me, there is not a black and white answer -- there usually isn't for most questions! I see this issue being on a continum -- your actions can slide from being what I'll call the most inhumane to the other end, where your actions can be the most loving (my opinion, again). I don't think we'd all agree as to what to "label" each end of the continum. For me, I strive to be the most loving toward all creatures -- which means I don't eat animals or consume products made by them. I leave the spiders alone in my home and even move slugs and spiders out of the way if they're on the sidewalk. That brings great peace and harmony to my life. Do I judge others for eating meat-- hopefully, my heart follows my mind's choice that we all have our own lives to lead and our own choices to make. And I'll end by saying, that even when our intentions are good, we all inadvertently (sp?) bring suffering to animals on some level -- the sites where our homes are built, the roads we drive on, farm-land from where our food comes (even if vegan!) were homes to animals and a multitude of life. Peace and goodwill to all of you.

joyful
 
#22 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by Raven67
BTW, there is plenty of evidence to refute the notion that people "need" to eat meat. In fact, the more meat and dairy a population consumes, the more disease it has. This is incontrovertable. Anyone could do one hour of research and find this to be true. But, it is not the main point of this thread, so I will leave it rest.
It isn't the main point, but since it is on this idea that many people base their stances on animal rights and/or welfare, I think it's a valid point of discussion.

Apparently, there is considerable evidence to support the belief that people need to eat animal products, and that we are meant to. There is also evidence that disease is not necessarily related to higher meat consumption; in fact, some argue that a diet too high in plant products is the more harmful.

Here is an interesting paper that addresses this (and the whole site is quite intriguing). I have not read the studies cited, so I take it with a grain of salt for now. I suggest reading the entire article, as it touches on many of the points made in this thread (including the idea that our teeth and digestive tracts indicate that we should be herbivores). Be forewarned that if you are a vegetarian, you may not like what this article says.

http://www.westonaprice.org/myths_tr...tarianism.html
 
#23 ·
A couple of things have come to mind for me while reading this.

First, there is evidence that we are meant to be herbivores and evidence that we are meant to be omnivores. This is a big planet, with huge variation in climate and living conditions. Of course their are and always have been cultures that have been vegetarian and are healthy. There are also cultures that have based their diet on meat and dairy products. They are healthy too. One size does not fit all! The Inuit people can't grow lentils and leafy greens in their habitat! Equatorial people do not need seal meat or whale blubber to thrive - where would they find or store it? Let's not forget that a lot of food related disease got out of control with the sugar/white flour epidemic that industry gave us, not by people eating and simply preparing the food that was available around them. Those are our planets two extreme habitats - the rest of us fall someplace in between, and I think our genetics probably play a significant part in what is the optimum diet for each of us.

My other point is supposed to be a little humorous, so please don't flame me. If we are going to say that we have no right to raise or hunt animals for the purpose of eating them because we have no business violating the animal's rights, then how about telling the mosquitoes to leave me alone next summer because I do not consent to them using my blood for their purposes! Nature is beautiful but not always pretty, if you know what I mean.

Are any of you familiar with the group The Arrogant Worms" - they have a great song called "Carrot Juice is Murder" singing about the oppression of caged tomatoes and the cruelty of salad (if you are a vegetable of course
)
 
#24 ·
somewhat ot, i guess, and many would probably consider it silly, but: after finally having enough of effing mosquitoes (and i'm from sk, mosquito capital of canada!) i decided that it was time for them to leave me alone. that was about 6 years ago. since then i have been bitten no more than 3 times. and haven't killed one (while others around me were bitten/bothered multiple times). i don't use bug lotion/spray, and don't kill them (any bugs).

i think we have powers we don't realize we have unless we believe we do..
 
#25 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by merpk
Hitler had a dog. A German shepherd. He loved his dog very much, and was by all accounts very gentle with him.

O- kaaaay....

I don't think that invalidates the point that how we treat animals contributes to and/or indicates how we treat people. There are exceptions to every rule, every generalization, etc, etc.

No offense to you, merpk, but honestly, if I had a tofu pup for every time someone told me that Hitler was a vegetarian, as thought that then conferred fasisitc tendencies upon every vegetarian, well, I'd have a whole lot of tofu pups.
 
#26 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by sadie_sabot
O- kaaaay....

I don't think that invalidates the point that how we treat animals contributes to and/or indicates how we treat people. There are exceptions to every rule, every generalization, etc, etc.

No offense to you, merpk, but honestly, if I had a tofu pup for every time someone told me that Hitler was a vegetarian, as thought that then conferred fasisitc tendencies upon every vegetarian, well, I'd have a whole lot of tofu pups.
I completely disagree...

I work a great deal with pet rescue groups as well as with a few local organizations for farm animals. In my experience, people who are UBER hard core animal people usually treat real humans not quite as nice. I don't know why.
 
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