Poverty In America - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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#31 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 12:34 PM
 
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well, I venture that those complaining that poorer folks brought it all on themselves and they shouldn't have to pay for it also don't support the wonderful programs that you guys have in Canada.
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#32 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 12:35 PM
 
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heh..it will be back in just a bit.

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#33 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 12:38 PM
 
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The programs vary from province to province...which is kind of like state to state.

Here are some links for an example, of the province I live in, Ontario:

http://www.cfcs.gov.on.ca/CFCS/en/pr...helppeople.htm

and

http://www.cfcs.gov.on.ca/CFCS/en/pr...rticipants.htm

I think that to help those who are not doing well, those young parents, those living well below poverty, is just as someone said, pure compassion. I also believe, by helping them to educate themselves, they one day, will contribute to helping someone else.
What goes around, comes around.

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#34 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 12:39 PM
 
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A~I think the question though, was, what can be done?
Again, NOT saying we are perfect. But our system seems to leave the 'poor', which 5 yrs ago, I was one...now making 60k/yr
leaves the poor with pride intact.
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#35 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mamasoleil
Moved already???

I was just going to say. I'm in Canada. And while our system is by far perfect. There are a few key differences, that I believe, would make a big difference for the USA.
But now the thread is gone!
And I can't quote...

We have free healthcare. This does not cover rx's or dental. But those living below poverty line, or on Social Services, get this covered as well.
WE have lots of geared to income housing.
Social Services AND employment insurance, will pay to educate you. While picking up the bill for childcare.
Off to find something....
I'll be back!

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But how good is the healthcare?
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#36 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 12:40 PM
 
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well I completely agree that it's pure compassion.....................
obviously not everyone is compassionate.
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#37 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 12:42 PM
 
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But how good is the healthcare?
All needed medical attention is taken care of by our government.Except for plastic surgery.
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#38 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 12:47 PM
 
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(Had my fill of taffy, stepping over bait)


One of the complaints I have heard from various think tanks and op-ed pieces is that socialized medicine would lower our standard of health care. That is a myth, IMHO. Most insured Americans are insured in some kind of HMO, which dictates who they can see, and rations just how much health care one can receive.

Furthermore, it seems silly that a select few have access to pretty much anything while a large number of people have no health insurance and get denied care just because they don't have large chunks of cash hanging around for doctor's visits.

My dd broke her arm last summer and her initial care cost over $10K, not counting followup care and I don't think that included the physician's bill.

Is it too much to ask that everyone everywhere have access to basic, non ER healthcare?
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#39 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 12:49 PM
 
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I don't think that's too much to ask Miranda!!!AT the very LEAST that should be available!
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#40 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 12:50 PM
 
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I agree Miranda that it's propaganda. Also the insurance lobby in the US is HUGE, as is the Drug Comps. They have spent a ton of money to make sure that the system doesn't change. And I think we are the only ( or one of the few) industrialized nations without a national health care program.

of course we have corporate welfare, soooo.........
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#41 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 12:50 PM
 
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Mamasoleil....
I had a patient in the ER from Canada....and said he had to wait 4 months to have his gallbladder removed and another relative had to wait forever to have her hip replaced.

Why the wait?
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#42 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 12:52 PM
 
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Was this lately? SARS slowed things down BIG time here.
But yeah, if things are not life-threatening, you can expect a wait of 2-4 wks. I feel this if fairly reasonable.
Again, we don't have a perfect system.
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#43 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 12:55 PM
 
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heh..it will be back in just a bit.
Abimommy~Is it possible to link this to the missing one? I didn't want to start a whole other thread, just ways that the American system can be improved.
TIA
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#44 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 12:55 PM
 
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Yes, just this past Christmas.

I had another patient from Germany who said the same thing.

And your right, no system is perfect.

I have another question....how much income tax do you pay? or is from some other source? I have heard figures of up to 40%.
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#45 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 12:56 PM
 
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ya, I can squish them together

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#46 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 01:01 PM
 
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Thanks Abimommy!!!

Sweetbaby3~
Depends on your income. I am making 60K/year now, and pay 33% in taxes. I feel this is high, but the government has helped me out a lot, and now, I'm paying it back.

I remember watching Roseanne YeARS ago, and that's when I found out you don't have free healthcare. This shocked me!
I love that our health is priority with our Government!
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#47 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 01:05 PM
 
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Ok.

Thanks Mamasoleil
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#48 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by MirandaW
One of the complaints I have heard from various think tanks and op-ed pieces is that socialized medicine would lower our standard of health care. That is a myth, IMHO. Most insured Americans are insured in some kind of HMO, which dictates who they can see, and rations just how much health care one can receive.

Furthermore, it seems silly that a select few have access to pretty much anything while a large number of people have no health insurance and get denied care just because they don't have large chunks of cash hanging around for doctor's visits.

My dd broke her arm last summer and her initial care cost over $10K, not counting followup care and I don't think that included the physician's bill.

Is it too much to ask that everyone everywhere have access to basic, non ER healthcare?
You're absolutely right, IMO. I certainly wish the majority of Americans could see this. The only distinction is that a private company dictates the terms of one's rationing and access, rather than the federal government. Somehow, people seem to think that if a private company does it, it's somehow ok, as they have a "choice."

For most folks, however, that's nonsense. Most of us have very little choice among insurance plans - if we're lucky enough to have affordable health insurance through our or our spouse's employment, we often have only one choice of plans. And insurance on the individual market is unaffordable to most people, due to risk pool and underwriting issues.

For those who are interested, the IOM recently released their final report in their series on uninsurance in the US. In it, they make a case for universal health insurance - a first for the IOM. You can read it on line here: http://www.nap.edu/books/0309091055/html/
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#49 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 01:20 PM
 
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Hmmmmm, I guess I'm one of those leeches, whipping out my WIC vouchers and using state funded medical insurance.

Did we do this to ourselves? Well, sort of. My dh made the decision to be a teacher, which doesn't pay well, and in our case, doesn't even offer health benefits to his family. The jobs we've found w/good health insurance are in places that the salary isn't enough to live on, if that makes sense.

I believe that healthcare should be socialized like in Canada and Europe. I think that would curb alot of what is happening with costs going skyhigh...........And I wouldn't mind paying higer taxes for it.

Most of the families that I know who get assistance have a dh who works full time, and sometimes the wife does too. Sometimes, it just isn't enough.

Yes, there are some folks who don't do anything to better their situation; but there are many, many, who try. The "system" is really screwed up.


I guess I don't have much to add; it just disgusts me that there are people who are so judgemental...........why on earth wouldn't you want your tax dollars going to help with health care? Where would you rather have them go? Oh, back in your pocket. Whatever.


Kristi
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#50 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 01:24 PM
 
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One thing that brightens my day is that most people I meet online and IRL show an amazing degree of compassion towards those in less fortunate positions then thay are. The scrooges are few and far between. Unless you are a lobbyist for certain corporate interests.

You know, "There, but for the Grace of G-D, go I".
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#51 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 01:24 PM
 
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Yes, there are some folks who don't do anything to better their situation; but there are many, many, who try. The "system" is really screwed up.
Very important and valid point I think. Yes, there are some deadbeats, in all countries. But it is not fair to generalize, and put everyone in the same category! IMNSHO
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#52 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 01:34 PM
 
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I just wanted to point out that because of bureaucracy, costs for insurance and health care are very high in the US. For the majority of people, going to Universal Health Care would either leave their health care situation the same, or improve it (I am not one of those, but I still support it).

http://www.hms.harvard.edu/news/rele...oolhimmel.html

According to this study, bureauracy ALONE costs close to $300 billion yearly in the US for healthcare, 2/3 of which would be cut under Universal Health Care.

Question for MaryNH---

I see you think your husband & dependents deserve health care because of his job. What full time jobs do you believe are not enough value to our society that the holders of them should not have healthcare?

 

 

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#53 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 01:46 PM
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TiredX2, don't feed the trolls.
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#54 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 01:47 PM - Thread Starter
 
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whew....look at what happens when you sleep in...........

This is an issue near and dear to my heart, and I will offer up my situation for scrutiny as an example because my life has been very "statistically typical" to a point.

Mary (or anyone against entitlements)....
You still didn't answer your own question....is the government responsible to help out the less fortunate? Why or why not?

The article that was linked (is it still there???) was not addressed. It's been mentioned...it simply does not use ACCURATE information. Based on that article, probably all of us here at MDC are "poor". It isn't representative of people who are in poverty. So how is that article really saying anything???

Some say "poor" people bring it on themselves with bad choices or whatnot. Do you see a bigger picture in that?

I come from a town that is working on families that are 4th generation welfare....while it's sad, it also speaks of a bigger probablem...why can't families get off welfare?

Another thing....if someone brings their poverty upon themselves, does that mean they deserve substandard living conditions? Or to not have a home at all?

On a personal note: Mary...I'm going to try to be compassionate here in the hopes you can extend the same courtesey....
How on earth is is ok for you to "glare" at anyone using their WIC vouchers? You have to agree....not all people who are on forms of assistance brought it on themselves, right? Do you think that the government should have NO support for people in that instance?

I was on WIC when I was single and preg with my daughter. I was also on just about everything else. I had to be. I previously had been working for 6 years full time. It was a goal of mine to get off all forms of assistance and I did that within about 2 years. I think thats what that stuff is there for....people who really need it at a time in their lives. Do you agree?

But you wouldn't know any of that and would have the nerve to judge and glare at me in the store for using my WIC vouchers?? Why???


And....since we call can agree poverty in America is a PROBLEM....how does that kind of attitude help the problem???
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#55 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 01:58 PM
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Don't feed the trolls.
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#56 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 02:33 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Marlena
Don't feed the trolls.
Troll is such a mean word, really.

But it is unfortunate that so many people have so much contempt for others, people they don't even know. This is beyond one or two mean posts, it's a disease in this culture, a disease of self-serving greed and hatred for life. So many of the rich are leeching off the back-breaking work of others and leeching off the land.
This is disgusting. The Bible, for goodness sake, has a lot to say, not much of it good, about the rich. They bring their suffering upon themselves, and others too.
There is nothing wrong with being successful in life, but if you don't recognize that no one is successful without the help of others, you are blind to reality.

Anyone who is struggling with hatred towards the needy and the poor should pick up their dusty old copy of the New Testament and read the words of Jesus. He was poor, too wasn't he?
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#57 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 02:42 PM
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It's one thing to have a discussion with people who genuinely believe that the government ought not to be involved in assisting the poor, and who are genuinely interested in discussing it. While I don't agree with any views I've seen to date along those lines, many are not beyond the pale of reason. I can see why one might hold such a view.

It's quite another thing, though, to get into a pissing match with someone who, based on most posts to date, appears only to be here to bait others, rile everyone up, and raise blood pressures. That's just a waste of time and space, and diverts discussion from something reasonable and worthy of careful consideration to something that's ridiculous.
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#58 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 02:55 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Marlena
That's just a waste of time and space, and diverts discussion from something reasonable and worthy of careful consideration to something that's ridiculous.
The best way to deal with attention-seeking misbehaviour is to ignore it.
I would rather discuss the issue at hand than give undue attention to this.
C'mon....let's move on!

By the way, another thing not yet addressed is the racism at the heart of many of these arguments against 'baby factories taking advantage of the system' etc.
I wonder what it is like to be judged that way.
I think it's a pretty ugly mentality.
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#59 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 03:12 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Marlena
It's one thing to have a discussion with people who genuinely believe that the government ought not to be involved in assisting the poor, and who are genuinely interested in discussing it. While I don't agree with any views I've seen to date along those lines, many are not beyond the pale of reason. I can see why one might hold such a view.

It's quite another thing, though, to get into a pissing match with someone who, based on most posts to date, appears only to be here to bait others, rile everyone up, and raise blood pressures. That's just a waste of time and space, and diverts discussion from something reasonable and worthy of careful consideration to something that's ridiculous.

*Certain* people aren't giving equal time to the other side, Marlena. A snarky, snotty reply to someone isn't going to get the best reply...it's common sense. If you don't want to get into a pissing match, fine. Post snark. It's not feeding them to ask legitimate questions and give them the opportunity to answer. It's VERY trollish to jump the gun and assume the worst and start name calling.

Please dont try to tell others what to do. And maybe it would be nice if you think someones trolling to simply ignore them and let others use their judgement.
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#60 of 186 Old 02-02-2004, 03:12 PM
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Let me remind everyone that they are free to scroll on by a discussion that irks them. As long as a member is posting in this community they deserve to be treated with the same civility and respect that we all expect for ourselves and for the community as a whole.

To label someone a troll does not fall into civil and respectful discussion. So please refrain from using that term to refer to those whose views you disagree with and whose manner of posting bothers you. We ask in the User Agreement that you report inappropriate behavior. If rules are being violated the member will be warned and repeat offenses will result in suspension. But if you respond in a manner that is inappropriate then you too are subject to the rules and procedures of this community and will also be alerted and warned.

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